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Why Schenn isn't untouchable - Kane

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Old
05-12-2009, 11:15 AM
  #51
Scoogs
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I'm to the point where I just want to close my eyes, plug my ears, and wait for draft day... Because I'm getting sick of all the talk.

It's ****ing useless.

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05-12-2009, 11:18 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Except when the Hawks were deciding between vanRiemsdyk, Kane and Turris on draft day.
My thoughts exactly.

When Kane went 1st it came down to 3 guys:

Turris
Kane
JVR

It seemed that each team had a different guy ranked at #1.

More people have Tavares at 1st this year than people had Kane at #1 his draft year.

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05-12-2009, 11:19 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
Sure they were.
I wasn't aware the first pick in the draft was announced in April, and the rest of the first round in June.

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05-12-2009, 11:25 AM
  #54
NoamHemsky
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Originally Posted by Leaf Army View Post
Schenn is a unique and rare talent. He's better than either Foote or Regehr were at his age. He's not a typical "stay at home defenceman" and should not be branded that way.

When Schenn is in his prime, I don't think there will be another player in the league like him. He'll be one of a kind. The league is full of offensive stars however.

And I can think of plenty of times where a shut-down defenceman has turned the momentum of a series.
Well said, Leaf Army.

Honestly, I would be happy to keep our existing assets and draft in our current position. Maybe make some minor deals to acquire some other picks.

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05-12-2009, 11:27 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by sgupca View Post
My thoughts exactly.

When Kane went 1st it came down to 3 guys:

Turris
Kane
JVR

It seemed that each team had a different guy ranked at #1.

More people have Tavares at 1st this year than people had Kane at #1 his draft year.
Seems that the correct guy was chosen and already having an impact in the league.

Kane's size may have been the only thing making people second guess him. His skill is head and shoulders above the rest.

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Old
05-12-2009, 11:31 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
I wasn't aware the first pick in the draft was announced in April, and the rest of the first round in June.
Last year it was announced in May. In 2005 the draft was called the "Sidney Crosby Sweepstakes" long before it even happened.

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05-12-2009, 11:36 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by leafspring View Post
He layed out some pretty nasty hits this past year and once he gets a handful of rivalries going with certain players, the nasty should come out more.

Stevens was in St Louis in the run and gun era also. it was different what ever the case. He seemed to want to get more involved there for awhile in the mid season time frame but i think Wilson reeled him in.

The offense is there,but the shot isn't yet. Whick kind of was my biggest surprise from him. His shot needs alot of work and imo its not very good at all.
Some hard hits, but nothing shattering like Stevens. Also his physical play seemed to be along the boards (thats where most of his big hits were, hard rub-outs)

Stevens was an offensive force in a number of places, not just STL. Even though it was an offensive era, he was among the best at it, Schenn is FAR from that level. You can see it in his numbers, so to say he's a comparable D-man doesn't seem fair to him. I'm not sure Schenn has the killer instincts that Stevens did. Stevens seemed to do it for fun, Schenn seems to do it because he's supposed to in his role.
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
I wasn't aware the first pick in the draft was announced in April, and the rest of the first round in June.
In fairness, it was announced last year (Essentially), Kane was somewhat of a toss-up (due to size) and many others were known ahead of time. EJ, Crosby, AO, Nash (though expect to go #3, all 3 teams got who they were after and it was well known who would end up where).

So there is some precedent on announcing a pick, or making it well known, before draft time. Though it can be easy to look back and say NYI basically knew they were taking Tavares #1 all along.

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05-12-2009, 11:38 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
Last year it was announced in May. In 2005 the draft was called the "Sidney Crosby Sweepstakes" long before it even happened.
And the old saying goes, different strokes for different folks

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Old
05-12-2009, 11:42 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Scott Stevens was an elite offensive defenseman too, having scored 20+ goals, almost 80 points while being the defensive presence he was.
All while piling up large amounts of penalty minutes too. It was a different era for scoring from the back-end though. Not taking anything away from him though.

Schenn can't be a clone for sure but i think Schenn got a eye opener of how strong players in the NHL are and could possibly be better prepared next year.

For me it is not the tell tale year for him but i expect some major improvements to his game because he has that expierence and knows what it takes better.

Pronger would look nice paired with Schenn if you want a impact trade, get Prongs from Anaheim. Prongs is so nasty out there that Luke would be involved every game getting his nose dirty just because its pronger he plays with.

I wouldn't expect Burke will be doing anything of the sort this year but when he becomes free after next year i could. He would be the perfect partner for luke.

I see Schenn scoring more but not to stevens standards,but everything else that stevens brought is there already.

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05-12-2009, 11:43 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by EazyB97 View Post
Some hard hits, but nothing shattering like Stevens. Also his physical play seemed to be along the boards (thats where most of his big hits were, hard rub-outs)

Stevens was an offensive force in a number of places, not just STL. Even though it was an offensive era, he was among the best at it, Schenn is FAR from that level. You can see it in his numbers, so to say he's a comparable D-man doesn't seem fair to him. I'm not sure Schenn has the killer instincts that Stevens did. Stevens seemed to do it for fun, Schenn seems to do it because he's supposed to in his role.

In fairness, it was announced last year (Essentially), Kane was somewhat of a toss-up (due to size) and many others were known ahead of time. EJ, Crosby, AO, Nash (though expect to go #3, all 3 teams got who they were after and it was well known who would end up where).

So there is some precedent on announcing a pick, or making it well known, before draft time. Though it can be easy to look back and say NYI basically knew they were taking Tavares #1 all along.
Of course it's within a team's right to announce who they're taking. Boston started negotiating contract with Thornton before drafting him.

But in this situation, if the Isles want Tavares, and they know the Lightning want Hedman, they could easily pretend not to be sure, trade down one spot to get the man they want and come away with extra assets.

Or if someone throws out an insane package for the number one pick last minute, you'd look foolish for building a marketing campaign for a guy you won't draft. Then you'd be in a PR nightmare.

Put it this way, the only party that benefits from an early Islander announcement is everybody except the Islanders.

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Old
05-12-2009, 11:46 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by leafspring View Post
I see Schenn scoring more but not to stevens standards,but everything else that stevens brought is there already.
Not sure I agree. Schenn didn't really show he was a mean SOB the way Stevens did every night. Stevens wanted to hurt people, and would do anything to win. Schenn's a tough guy and will stand up for his teammates, mix it up, etc. but I just didn't sense that killer instinct in Schenn.

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05-12-2009, 11:52 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Not sure I agree. Schenn didn't really show he was a mean SOB the way Stevens did every night. Stevens wanted to hurt people, and would do anything to win. Schenn's a tough guy and will stand up for his teammates, mix it up, etc. but I just didn't sense that killer instinct in Schenn.
Except, you are remembering Scott Steven's as a veteran VS Luke Schenn as a rookie.

Being physical as a defender is often directly related to comfort level. Once Schenn is more comfortable with his game at this level I think you will see his physicality emerge.

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05-12-2009, 11:54 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Berger
But, a player in the Schenn mold will never break open an elimination playoff game the way Kane did at the United Center. And, that’s why the Maple Leafs desperately need a John Tavares… at the expense of any asset in the organization.
does he think Hedman will ever be able to break open an elimination playoff game the way Kane did last night? what about Doughty? are they therefore bad picks? i mean he makes a valid point but the extent to which it's true for Schenn has to be applied as well to some of the other picks that no one really criticizes.

i'm under no illusions that Schenn is on the same level as Doughty, Bogosian, whatever in terms of gamebreaking potential, and i wouldn't argue that the Leafs don't need some elite skill in their organization in the worst way. still, add Tavares to the Leafs roster right now, subtract Schenn or Kaberle and whoever we'd get at 7, plus the chance to add another first that goes out with moving our only assets that would give us a chance to move up, and i don't think he gets a chance to make a difference in a second-round playoff elimination game for a long while. Kane likely wouldn't have had that chance either if it had cost Chicago Seabrook/Keith/Bolland to move up to take him.

a team needs more than one draft to rebuild, the Hawks last night and in these playoffs can be used as an example to prove that point just as easily as they're used here as an example of what gamebreaking skill can do.

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05-12-2009, 11:55 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Not really a news article, more opinion but written by Berger:

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Howar...avares/3/21162




Comes right down to why I wasn't thrilled about drafting a defensive d-man with a lottery pick.

Adam Foote - lottery pick? Ouch!!!
I guess you wouldn't be happy, if that's all you think he is. For those of us who haven't limited him yet, we're still thinking the selection was the right one.

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05-12-2009, 11:59 AM
  #65
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I'm with you. As much as I like Luke Schenn, I am still one of the few around here that thinks we should have chosen Filatov.

I still can't understand why people are opposed to adding a player that could potentially be one of the best players in the game? I am all for having good defensive help but not at the expense of a potential superstar.

This is Toronto though, I guess it's not that surprising.
If it was just Luke Schenn, or Luke Schenn, plus Kaberle, I would be fine with the deal. Schenn is a favourite of mine, but I'm by no means blind to the fact of how special a player like John Tavares is. But I consistently see bantied about Kaberle, Schenn, 7th plus for Tavares. When we get into that territory, it stops becoming a trade, and starts becoming a ****** of our assets.

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05-12-2009, 11:59 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Red Forman View Post
I guess you wouldn't be happy, if that's all you think he is. For those of us who haven't limited him yet, we're still thinking the selection was the right one.
The problem with this is Schenn basically needs everything to go right for him developmentally to be equal to an Adam Foote. That's the problem.

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05-12-2009, 11:59 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by leafs in five View Post
does he think Hedman will ever be able to break open an elimination playoff game the way Kane did last night? what about Doughty? i mean it's a valid point but the extent to which it's true for Schenn has to be applied as well to some other picks that no one really criticizes.
If the Hedman comparisons are true, and he can be a 6'6 strong skating d-man who can lead in both ends, then yes, he can break-open an elimination game. Doughty can break it open with his speed and two-way play. A few end to end rushes can largely open a game up in a way that Schenn can't. Schenn is dependant upon others, gamebreakers control the game on their own.

That said, we do need to build and 1-2 gamebreakers isn't enough, you need more than just them to come to play every night.

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Old
05-12-2009, 12:01 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
The problem with this is Schenn basically needs everything to go right for him developmentally to be equal to an Adam Foote. That's the problem.
why is that?

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05-12-2009, 12:01 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Not sure I agree. Schenn didn't really show he was a mean SOB the way Stevens did every night. Stevens wanted to hurt people, and would do anything to win. Schenn's a tough guy and will stand up for his teammates, mix it up, etc. but I just didn't sense that killer instinct in Schenn.
It was his rookie season. I don't expect any rookie to be going out trying to kill people. He's not going to start showing his authority in this league in his rookie season. My god, people have some ridiculous expectations from players right out of the gates.

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05-12-2009, 12:03 PM
  #70
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The problem with this is Schenn basically needs everything to go right for him developmentally to be equal to an Adam Foote. That's the problem.
See, I see it as he's already on the right path to be at worst, an Adam Foote. If he keeps up his line of progression as it is, that's what we have. If he grows, and adds fascets to his game (offensive upside), and his level of play increases, we have something special.

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05-12-2009, 12:06 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by NoamHemsky View Post
why is that?
I have seen Schenn's charts at MLSE headquarters. Stephen is 100% right.

One hiccup in his development and he's in Aki Berg territory. This has all been proven with number, graphs, and science.

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05-12-2009, 12:07 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Red Forman View Post
See, I see it as he's already on the right path to be at worst, an Adam Foote. If he keeps up his line of progression as it is, that's what we have. If he grows, and adds fascets to his game (offensive upside), and his level of play increases, we have something special.
Ah, sometimes it tough hard to be part of Leaf's Nation, eh, Red?

I am a Schenn convert. I wanted the Leafs to draft Filatov, but now I will happily watch this kid develop in the Blue and White!

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05-12-2009, 12:08 PM
  #73
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I have seen Schenn's charts at MLSE headquarters. Stephen is 100% right.
link?

The least MLSE could do is make that info public.

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05-12-2009, 12:08 PM
  #74
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I have seen Schenn's charts at MLSE headquarters. Stephen is 100% right.
Schenn's development chart looks like this, I'm guessing:

2008_____________________________________________2 028

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05-12-2009, 12:09 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Red Forman View Post
See, I see it as he's already on the right path to be at worst, an Adam Foote. If he keeps up his line of progression as it is, that's what we have. If he grows, and adds fascets to his game (offensive upside), and his level of play increases, we have something special.
One thing I don't particularly understand is why fans believe Schenn has all this amazing growth potential. His skating and footspeed isn't fantastic, but they think it can easily be improved upon, but at the same time, they point to Tavares and criticize his lack of footspeed. They think he can magically add an offensive dimension, when all indications are that Schenn is weak on the puck and has very little offensive imagination. Offensive talent isn't something you can teach. I'm skeptical and I think we'll be lucky to see an Adam Foote Jr.

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