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Old
05-13-2009, 11:59 PM
  #1
WJG
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Toronto-Philadephia

I posted this in the other TOR-PHI proposal and wanted to see what kind of reaction it'd get.

To Toronto: Joffrey Lupul, Matt Carle, Philadelphia's 1st rounder
To Philadelphia: Pavel Kubina

The reasoning is that Philadelphia probably needs a big physical top pairing defenseman (Kubina) more than than they need a puck moving defenseman (Kaberle) right now, especially considering they already have Timonen who plays a similar role.

Lupul and Carle are both salary dumps for the Flyers, and the 1st is added as a sweetener (realistically, Kubina is probably worth a 2nd, but because Toronto swallows the bad contracts, it's upped to a late 1st).

Both players are young and get a chance to prove themselves on a rebuilding Leafs team. Carle replaces Kubina on the blueline and Lupul gets an opportunity to replace a departing player (ex. Ponikarovsky, Stempniak, etc) who might be traded at the draft or in the summer.

Burke is also already familiar with Lupul from his days in Anahiem, and aside from Dustin Penner, he usually likes bringing in players he's familiar with.

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Old
05-14-2009, 12:09 AM
  #2
Norm MacDonald
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In no way is Kubina worth that much.

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Old
05-14-2009, 12:18 AM
  #3
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Deep Orange: Take out Carle and add a Toronto 2nd or 3rd?

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Old
05-14-2009, 12:21 AM
  #4
Jeffler
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Kubina is worth more than a 2nd...vastly underrated on HF.

Value seems close here, IMHO, and this is as an epic Kubina booster

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Old
05-14-2009, 12:45 AM
  #5
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Big but slow d-men with a heavy point shot, career minus player.

Flyers do not need or want that.

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Old
05-14-2009, 12:50 AM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Big but slow d-men with a heavy point shot, career minus player.

Flyers do not need or want that.
True, forgot about Hatcher.

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Old
05-14-2009, 01:12 AM
  #7
NobodysFaulkButMine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverse Flying V View Post
Kubina is worth more than a 2nd...vastly underrated on HF.

Value seems close here, IMHO, and this is as an epic Kubina booster
I agree Kubina is extremely underrated. He's one of the few Leafs I like, let alone love. But, this is far from an even trade. Phi is giving up too much but Kubina is a defenseman who could fit their mould. In his defense, he's a minus defenseman due to poor teams. In his pst four seasons, he was only minus once (Last season) which was due to bad netminding and a poor defensive team in general (Leafs tended to winning by a small margin while losing in a lot of blowouts). Personally, I would love him on the Canes but his contract is way too high.

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Old
05-14-2009, 01:38 AM
  #8
The Puck
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Too much for Kubina.

Lupul OR Carle + 1st round pick would be more reasonable.

But I doubt Burke is too crazy about Lupul, who could easily become another Stempniak.

The thing about Kubina/Kaberle is that most teams interested in trading for them are probably better off waiting to see what UFAs like J-Bo, Komisarek, Ohlund, and Beauchemin are looking for, instead of giving up picks/players.

And when Burke said he wanted a roster player, 1st round pick, and top prospect for Kubina/Kaberle, that was just posturing on his part; I believe he'll settle for just two of those assets.

After all, he initially said he wanted a 1st for Antropov, but afterward admitted that he never really expected to get that much.

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Old
05-14-2009, 01:48 AM
  #9
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This really isn't far off. Pretty decent proposal overall, especially given the crap that normally gets thrown around here. And this is coming from a Flyers fan.

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Old
05-14-2009, 03:10 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burt the Dog View Post
Too much for Kubina.

Lupul OR Carle + 1st round pick would be more reasonable.

But I doubt Burke is too crazy about Lupul, who could easily become another Stempniak.
The thing about Kubina/Kaberle is that most teams interested in trading for them are probably better off waiting to see what UFAs like J-Bo, Komisarek, Ohlund, and Beauchemin are looking for, instead of giving up picks/players.

And when Burke said he wanted a roster player, 1st round pick, and top prospect for Kubina/Kaberle, that was just posturing on his part; I believe he'll settle for just two of those assets.

After all, he initially said he wanted a 1st for Antropov, but afterward admitted that he never really expected to get that much.
For all the hate Lupol recieves on these boards hes alot more proven of a goal scorer then Stempniak and this is something that the leafs roster isnt exactly deep with. Lupol also isnt a midget like Stempniak and doesnt get pushed around nearly as much. The only thing that turns me off sort of with this deal is the amount of money that Lupol makes but if we were getting back a first round pick with him, Id make the deal.

Lupols goal totals

25 this season
20 in 56 games last season
28 in 2006

Lupol has some flaws but he'd arguable instantly be our teams best pure sniper possibly outside of Blake and it gives us a right handed sniper which this current forward group lacks.

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Old
05-14-2009, 03:31 AM
  #11
The Puck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shef View Post
For all the hate Lupol recieves on these boards hes alot more proven of a goal scorer then Stempniak and this is something that the leafs roster isnt exactly deep with. Lupol also isnt a midget like Stempniak and doesnt get pushed around nearly as much. The only thing that turns me off sort of with this deal is the amount of money that Lupol makes but if we were getting back a first round pick with him, Id make the deal.

Lupols goal totals

25 this season
20 in 56 games last season
28 in 2006

Lupol has some flaws but he'd arguable instantly be our teams best pure sniper possibly outside of Blake and it gives up a right handed sniper which this current forward group lacks.
When he was a Duck, I used to be a big fan and thought he'd hit 40+ goals one day.

After the year he had in Edmonton (81 games, 28 points, -29) my opinion changed.

He looked better in Philly, but the Leafs won't be able to give him the same calibre linemates.

Maybe if the Leafs signed the Sedins, he'd be a great fit with them ...

But with Stajan or Mitchell as his centre, it's hard to expect him to live up to his 4.25M salary.

But right now he's too inconsistent, and while I agree he would be the Leafs' most dangerous sniper, he's still more of a 2nd liner.

Plus the Leafs might be able to sign someone like Mike Cammalleri for not too much more money.

Lupul isn't bad, I just rather have something else.

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Old
05-14-2009, 03:43 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burt the Dog View Post
When he was a Duck, I used to be a big fan and thought he'd hit 40+ goals one day.

After the year he had in Edmonton (81 games, 28 points, -29) my opinion changed.

He looked better in Philly, but the Leafs won't be able to give him the same calibre linemates.

Maybe if the Leafs signed the Sedins, he'd be a great fit with them ...

But with Stajan or Mitchell as his centre, it's hard to expect him to live up to his 4.25M salary.

But right now he's too inconsistent, and while I agree he would be the Leafs' most dangerous sniper, he's still more of a 2nd liner.

Plus the Leafs might be able to sign someone like Mike Cammalleri for not too much more money.

Lupul isn't bad, I just rather have something else.
I bolded the part I wanted to address. First off, Lupul really doesn't have it good with his linemate for racking up the points in Philly. I love Jeff Carter but he really isn't much of a play maker nor is he really much of a team player in the offensive zone. Carter is really only effective when he has the puck on his stick. He needs to carry the puck and let it rip. He doesn't have a good one-time shot off a pass. He doesn't make pretty tic-tac-toe passes with his wings. He DOES make nice passes at tmes but that's not really his forte. Lupul and Hartnell really skate around looking for Carters rebounds more than anything else. If Lupul were with a real playmaking center then I think he could easily pot 30 goals next season. He's got a nice shot but really, Carter isn't the center to take full advantage of Lupul's assets.

Also, don't count on the Flyers defense for adding to the scoring by our forwards. In fact we kill the production of any offensive dman we get. It's just been the mentality of the Flyers for the past 20 years or so. When offensive dmen come here their numbers ALWAYS drop significantly. We just don't let them focus on offense, we demand they pull back and focus on defense and put the offensive burdon on the forwards.

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Old
05-14-2009, 03:58 AM
  #13
seanlinden
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The leafs don't have much interest in moving Kubina; so you're problably going to have to overpay a little to get him. That being said, our interest in Carle is problably nonexistent. Philly would be better off to take Carle out of the equation, give us Van Riemsdyk and demand a replacement for Lupul; then move Carle to a team like Nashville or Minnesota for some cheap goaltending help.

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Old
05-14-2009, 04:51 AM
  #14
weems
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfried View Post
The leafs don't have much interest in moving Kubina; so you're problably going to have to overpay a little to get him. That being said, our interest in Carle is problably nonexistent. Philly would be better off to take Carle out of the equation, give us Van Riemsdyk and demand a replacement for Lupul; then move Carle to a team like Nashville or Minnesota for some cheap goaltending help.
Theres no way your going to get JVR a very recent #2 overall pick for Pavel Kubina.

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Old
05-14-2009, 05:15 AM
  #15
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Flyers say no to the original deal, unless you want to take out the 1st from us. Even then it's a maybe depending on who else calls for Lupul.

Definite no to any inclusion of JVR for ****ing Kubina.

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Old
05-14-2009, 06:49 AM
  #16
BringBackStevens
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I wouldn't give up our first in this deal. Change it to our 3rd, and you have a deal.

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Old
05-14-2009, 07:19 AM
  #17
DougGilmour93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redlighting View Post
I posted this in the other TOR-PHI proposal and wanted to see what kind of reaction it'd get.

To Toronto: Joffrey Lupul, Matt Carle, Philadelphia's 1st rounder
To Philadelphia: Pavel Kubina

The reasoning is that Philadelphia probably needs a big physical top pairing defenseman (Kubina) more than than they need a puck moving defenseman (Kaberle) right now, especially considering they already have Timonen who plays a similar role.

Lupul and Carle are both salary dumps for the Flyers, and the 1st is added as a sweetener (realistically, Kubina is probably worth a 2nd, but because Toronto swallows the bad contracts, it's upped to a late 1st).

Both players are young and get a chance to prove themselves on a rebuilding Leafs team. Carle replaces Kubina on the blueline and Lupul gets an opportunity to replace a departing player (ex. Ponikarovsky, Stempniak, etc) who might be traded at the draft or in the summer.

Burke is also already familiar with Lupul from his days in Anahiem, and aside from Dustin Penner, he usually likes bringing in players he's familiar with.
Not a fan of all the salary coming back our way but overall it's a good deal. Enticing to say the least.

Well done.

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Old
05-14-2009, 07:20 AM
  #18
twenty2
 
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
Not a fan of all the salary coming back our way but overall it's a good deal. Enticing to say the least.

Well done.
the value isnt even close...

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Old
05-14-2009, 07:20 AM
  #19
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how about:

Kaberle + 7th + either Poni OR stajan

for

JVR + philly 1st + lupul

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Old
05-14-2009, 07:41 AM
  #20
twenty2
 
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Originally Posted by Porn* View Post
how about:

Kaberle + 7th + either Poni OR stajan

for

JVR + philly 1st + lupul
no interest in Kaberle unless Carle is going in the other direction.

and any trade involving the Flyers that warrants top end talent can include our first rounder OR jvr. both are not going. especially not for minor upgrades.

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Old
05-14-2009, 07:49 AM
  #21
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Originally Posted by twenty2 View Post
no interest in Kaberle unless Carle is going in the other direction.

and any trade involving the Flyers that warrants top end talent can include our first rounder OR jvr. both are not going. especially not for minor upgrades.
Can't look at it in such a short-sighted approach. If the Flyers are able to land Kaberle, then they simply trade Carle for goaltending help.

JVR & the first are the two most valuable assets they have. If the Flyers can get a package that helps them a lot, then both should be available. Something like Kaberle (#1 defenceman), Tlusty (future top 6 forward who can play right now for cheap), Stajan/Poni (cheap 3rd line forwards with the ability to jump into the top 6) & the 2nd round pick should get a package of JvR, Lupul and the 1st round pick.

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Old
05-14-2009, 07:51 AM
  #22
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terrible terrible terrible.

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Old
05-14-2009, 08:13 AM
  #23
twenty2
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Can't look at it in such a short-sighted approach. If the Flyers are able to land Kaberle, then they simply trade Carle for goaltending help.

JVR & the first are the two most valuable assets they have. If the Flyers can get a package that helps them a lot, then both should be available. Something like Kaberle (#1 defenceman), Tlusty (future top 6 forward who can play right now for cheap), Stajan/Poni (cheap 3rd line forwards with the ability to jump into the top 6) & the 2nd round pick should get a package of JvR, Lupul and the 1st round pick.
So you're proposing:

Kaberle (#2 def on Flyers) - 4.25m for 2 more years then UFA
Tlusty (2006 1st round sniper) - 0.89m for 1 more year then RFA
Ponikarovsky (two-way forward with decent offense) - 2.11 for 1 more year then UFA
2nd round 2009

for

JVR (2007 2nd overall powerforward) - cap hit/contract unknown
Lupul (young top 6 sniper) - 4.25m for 4 more years then UFA
1st round 2009

See the problem with this deal is even though Poni, Stajan, and Tlusty are decent we'd be taking on 2-3m in salary with this deal for players we don't necessarily want, but of course without them the deal is heavily balanced in favor of the Leafs.

We're also holding out for other teams that have deep goaltending situations, but need/will need offense such as Minnesota and Montreal. We'd rather use Lupul for something we need over minor upgrades to the defense. We can upgrade in free-agency or trading other assets. We could get a lot more value out of the package you're proposing we trade to the Leafs.

On top of that, if we end up dealing another of our wingers to upgrade the defense such as Briere since there is interest in him if he waives his NMC, Lupul is certainly staying because we would need him for depth.

All that leads to a HUGE reluctance to make this deal from Philadelphia.

I have to say no.

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Old
05-14-2009, 09:04 AM
  #24
wayne98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burt the Dog View Post
Too much for Kubina.

Lupul OR Carle + 1st round pick would be more reasonable.

But I doubt Burke is too crazy about Lupul, who could easily become another Stempniak.

The thing about Kubina/Kaberle is that most teams interested in trading for them are probably better off waiting to see what UFAs like J-Bo, Komisarek, Ohlund, and Beauchemin are looking for, instead of giving up picks/players.

And when Burke said he wanted a roster player, 1st round pick, and top prospect for Kubina/Kaberle, that was just posturing on his part; I believe he'll settle for just two of those assets.

After all, he initially said he wanted a 1st for Antropov, but afterward admitted that he never really expected to get that much.
ya I agree with you. I wonder if philly would give up hartnel and their 1st

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Old
05-14-2009, 09:15 AM
  #25
LEIFey
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ya I agree with you. I wonder if philly would give up hartnel and their 1st
i'm thinking no. hartnell has a NTC and is in love with the team/city. he'd nix any deal. how about briere?

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