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Old
05-14-2009, 09:18 AM
  #26
twenty2
 
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Originally Posted by wayne98 View Post
ya I agree with you. I wonder if philly would give up hartnel and their 1st
not for kubina. kubina wouldnt even get you hartnell straight up.

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05-14-2009, 09:40 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Baylzzz View Post
True, forgot about Hatcher.
I terms of skating.. both in the same league. No interest from me. Zero. Rather overpay for Bouwmeester.

I am not sure why fans think Kubina is worth 1st round pick. Kubina should receive McCabes type of return, maybe a little better but not a lot better. A player and a pick, maybe even a 2nd round pick but definitely not a 1st round pick.

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05-14-2009, 10:04 AM
  #28
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Kubina should be able to get you a late 1st or a 2nd and a prospect IMO. He is an under rated dman for sure.

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05-14-2009, 10:07 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
Kubina should be able to get you a late 1st or a 2nd and a prospect IMO. He is an under rated dman for sure.
And Jones is underrated as a defensive defenseman. Trade straight up?

Quite frankly Kubina doesn't fit in the Flyers at that salary. He'd make a solid 3rd pairing with Sbisa, but not at $5m, and he's not exactly the upgrade to Carle we're looking for.

Verdict: We don't want him. I don't care how you view him.

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05-14-2009, 10:12 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
Kubina should be able to get you a late 1st or a 2nd and a prospect IMO. He is an under rated dman for sure.
He is under rated? How so?

You thought Antopov would get you 1st too. Good thing your opinion means jack.

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05-14-2009, 11:21 AM
  #31
DougGilmour93
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
He is under rated? How so?

You thought Antopov would get you 1st too. Good thing your opinion means jack.
Antropov should have got a 1st. Past markets dictated that. No one knew that this was the year that everything was going to change.

Kubina brings alot to the table. A player like Jones for instance, doesn't. If you don't want Kubina, fine. The OP wanted him, and a player like Kubina could really excel on a team like the Flyers. Not to mention the Flyers coudl defienetly use him. Did you not see what happened in the playoffs this year?

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05-14-2009, 11:27 AM
  #32
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waaay too much for the flyers to give up. kubina is an expensive contract to use an argument thats often used against the flyers wat are you willing to give up to be rid of him

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Old
05-14-2009, 11:33 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
Antropov should have got a 1st. Past markets dictated that. No one knew that this was the year that everything was going to change.

Kubina brings alot to the table. A player like Jones for instance, doesn't. If you don't want Kubina, fine. The OP wanted him, and a player like Kubina could really excel on a team like the Flyers. Not to mention the Flyers coudl defienetly use him. Did you not see what happened in the playoffs this year?
Actually the OP didn't want him, he wanted Lupul, Carle and a 1st, which is ofcourse re-****ing-diculous. Lupul and Carle are not salary dumps, and they do not have negative value. A player with "2nd round value" does not jump up to a 1st when you add 2 young NHL-Caliber players, even if they are paid for their potential. Especially when Kubina makes 5 millions dollars and is only signed for another year.

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05-14-2009, 11:59 AM
  #34
DougGilmour93
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That's the problem. KUBINA HAS 1ST ROUND VALUE. There. Cleared that up for you...

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Old
05-14-2009, 12:11 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
That's the problem. KUBINA HAS 1ST ROUND VALUE. There. Cleared that up for you...
Then so does Carle, Lupul, our 1st, and JVR...

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Old
05-14-2009, 12:14 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
That's the problem. KUBINA HAS 1ST ROUND VALUE. There. Cleared that up for you...
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
Antropov should have got a 1st. Past markets dictated that. No one knew that this was the year that everything was going to change.

Kubina brings alot to the table. A player like Jones for instance, doesn't. If you don't want Kubina, fine. The OP wanted him, and a player like Kubina could really excel on a team like the Flyers. Not to mention the Flyers coudl defienetly use him. Did you not see what happened in the playoffs this year?
NO HE DOESN'T. There cleared THAT up for you. Just like you are wrong about Antropov you are wrong about Kubina. Kubina IS more valuable than Antorpov but not THAT much more. Our first is going to be either 21st, 20th or 19th, we'll find out tonight. That should get you a player like Mike Richards. Kubina has never and will never be worth anywhere close to a Mike Richards type player (even as just a prospect) even in your wildest dreams. If you think that Kubina is worth our 1st straight up then Briere is worth YOUR first this year.

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Old
05-14-2009, 12:16 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
That's the problem. KUBINA HAS 1ST ROUND VALUE. There. Cleared that up for you...
Thats not the point I'm trying to make, I'm talking about the way the OP came up with the trade. He said that the 2nd would have to get bumped up to a 1st because Lupul and Carle have negative value, which is retarded.

Besides, if Kubina does have 1st round value like you say (just like Antropov was), then why the hell are we adding on Lupul and Carle on top of the 1st round pick???

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Old
05-14-2009, 12:19 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
I terms of skating.. both in the same league. No interest from me. Zero. Rather overpay for Bouwmeester.

I am not sure why fans think Kubina is worth 1st round pick. Kubina should receive McCabes type of return, maybe a little better but not a lot better. A player and a pick, maybe even a 2nd round pick but definitely not a 1st round pick.
Luckily for the Philadelphia Flyers they would actually see it differently. As for your comparison of Bryan McCabe and Kubina, look at the comparison between Bouwmeester and McCabe before you make these comments. McCabe had 39 points in 13 LESS games then Bouwmeester with 42 points in 82 games. That is only a difference of 3 points between Bouwmeester and McCabe, so it looks like McCabe is the better player this year, no?

Realistically, if Holmgren overpays for Jay Bouwmeester at $7-8 million per season, then he should be fired as General Manager. At 26 years of age, Bouwmeester should have reached his potential by now.

If the Flyers were looking to upgrade their defence and dump salary, Kubina could actually become a good option over Jay Bouwmeester. Compare the two players for the last two seasons and you will see the difference between Bouwmeester and Kubina is minimal.

Jay Bouwmeester
6'4" - 212 lbs

Last two seasons:

GP G A PTS +/- PIM
82 15 22 37 -5 72
82 15 27 42 -2 68

Pavel Kubina
6'4" - 242 lbs

Last two seasons:

GP G A PTS +/- PIM
72 11 29 40 5 116
82 14 26 40 -15 94

For only one more year at $5 million, I would take Pavel Kubina over Jay Bouwmeester in a heart beat. Bouwmeester is not even close to being a perennial puck moving defenseman because if that is the case then Kubina would be in the same league. Kubina even has more penalty minutes showing he gets dirtier then Bouwmeester does.

Why would Philadelphia screw up their cap and over pay by two to three million dollars when they could easily get a similar player in Kubina for far less? This is smart money management for general managers.

For those that say Kubina would not even get the Leafs Hartnell, then the same can be said for Bouwmeester, correct? After all, at 26 years old Bouwmeester is past the stage of "potential" and has now reached his prime years. Bouwmeester is just a younger version of Pavel Kubina that will get paid more to do the same role as Pavel Kubina.

Kubina is the more physical defenseman out of the two, with a Stanley Cup ring to back it up, while Bouwmeester is the least physical of the two with no real playoff experience. If a general manager had the choice to get a player with a Stanley Cup ring and is more physical at $2 million less, then they would consider giving up some assets to get the deal done.

Holmgren understands that salary cap considerations and experience far outweigh hype of a 26 year old player in Bouwmeester that has similar skill sets in Kubina, and would be over paid by $2-3 million for the same role he would play on the team.

Philadelphia is a team with good prospects and players they can afford to give up for an upgrade, while the salary cap is a luxury they do not have right now. Signing Bouwmeester would be going backwards rather then trading for a player like Kubina with assets the Flyers can afford to give up at this time. It makes sense for Holmgren to look at any potential deal with Toronto for Pavel Kubina.

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Old
05-14-2009, 12:21 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by twenty2 View Post
So you're proposing:

Kaberle (#2 def on Flyers) - 4.25m for 2 more years then UFA
Tlusty (2006 1st round sniper) - 0.89m for 1 more year then RFA
Ponikarovsky (two-way forward with decent offense) - 2.11 for 1 more year then UFA
2nd round 2009

for

JVR (2007 2nd overall powerforward) - cap hit/contract unknown
Lupul (young top 6 sniper) - 4.25m for 4 more years then UFA
1st round 2009

See the problem with this deal is even though Poni, Stajan, and Tlusty are decent we'd be taking on 2-3m in salary with this deal for players we don't necessarily want, but of course without them the deal is heavily balanced in favor of the Leafs.

We're also holding out for other teams that have deep goaltending situations, but need/will need offense such as Minnesota and Montreal. We'd rather use Lupul for something we need over minor upgrades to the defense. We can upgrade in free-agency or trading other assets. We could get a lot more value out of the package you're proposing we trade to the Leafs.

On top of that, if we end up dealing another of our wingers to upgrade the defense such as Briere since there is interest in him if he waives his NMC, Lupul is certainly staying because we would need him for depth.

All that leads to a HUGE reluctance to make this deal from Philadelphia.

I have to say no.
You're missing out on a little bit of key information. Philadelphia is adding a little bit of salary, but they are also taking on 3 roster players (2 top 9 forwards and a top pair defenceman) for 1. This trade means that you can trade Carle for no salary, and do not need to spend any money retaining a guy like Knuble / signing a 3rd line forward (as Ponikarovsky takes that on). Overall, you're replacing Lupul ($4.25) & Carle ($3.4) with Tlusty (900k) and Kaberle ($4.25)... saving $2.5 million. Then you're spending another $2.1 million on Poni (if philly can't afford that extra $2.1, then you just take Poni out and maybe we include another pick).

However, you are correct in touching upon the fact that this deal needs to be made in conjunction with another deal for a goaltender; and will depend on whether or not Briere will waive the NMC, and what teams will be willing to give up for him in terms of help in goal.

Assuming that Carle could be packaged along with the Toronto 2nd rounder to a team like Montreal, Nashville, Minnesota (who has young goaltending depth); and assuming that Briere is not movable; then this deal definitely makes a heck of a lot of sense for the Flyers.

They end up with lines that look something like:

Gagne-Carter-Hartnell
Tlusty-Richards-Giroux
Ponikarovsky-Briere-Asham
Cote-Powe-Carcillo

Kaberle-Coburn
Timmonen-Jones
Alberts-Parent

Harding?
Anderson?

And all it would cost them is Lupul, Carle, the downgrade from van Riemsdyk to Tlusty, and their first round pick.

Another way to look at it.....big upgrade from Carle to Kaberle.... decent downgrade from Van Riemsdyk to Tlusty.... slight downgrade from Lupul to Ponikarovsky (but big cap savings)..... 1st round pick this year for a young starting (or 1A) goaltender.


Last edited by seanlinden: 05-14-2009 at 12:42 PM.
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Old
05-14-2009, 12:31 PM
  #40
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I seriously doubt Tlusty will be the player that convinces Holmgren to trade JVR.

If there is a way for Holmgren to get Kaberle without trading him...which there most likely is, because I don't see anyone who has a JVR-caliber prospect even consider trading them for Kaberle...then I don't think there is any way that JVR will be wearing white and blue next season.

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05-14-2009, 12:51 PM
  #41
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I'd rather take a shot at Witt or see if Komisarek makes it to FA. Flyers have some serious considerations to make and would be wise not to take on too much salary when trying to dump it.

That being said, Kubina would look pretty good in Orange and Black and 5mil isn't too bad. Carle was our #3 dman last year and I'm pretty high on him, he got better as the year progressed so in other words I wouldn't like seeing him traded.

Coburn, Timmo, Carle and Kubina as your top 4? That's pretty nice.

How about Lupul, 1st, COTE! for Kubina

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Old
05-14-2009, 01:01 PM
  #42
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You're missing out on a little bit of key information. Philadelphia is adding a little bit of salary, but they are also taking on 3 roster players (2 top 9 forwards and a top pair defenceman) for 1. This trade means that you can trade Carle for no salary, and do not need to spend any money retaining a guy like Knuble / signing a 3rd line forward (as Ponikarovsky takes that on). Overall, you're replacing Lupul ($4.25) & Carle ($3.4) with Tlusty (900k) and Kaberle ($4.25)... saving $2.5 million. Then you're spending another $2.1 million on Poni (if philly can't afford that extra $2.1, then you just take Poni out and maybe we include another pick).

However, you are correct in touching upon the fact that this deal needs to be made in conjunction with another deal for a goaltender; and will depend on whether or not Briere will waive the NMC, and what teams will be willing to give up for him in terms of help in goal.

Assuming that Carle could be packaged along with the Toronto 2nd rounder to a team like Montreal, Nashville, Minnesota (who has young goaltending depth); and assuming that Briere is not movable; then this deal definitely makes a heck of a lot of sense for the Flyers.

They end up with lines that look something like:

Gagne-Carter-Hartnell
Tlusty-Richards-Giroux
Ponikarovsky-Briere-Asham
Cote-Powe-Carcillo

Kaberle-Coburn
Timmonen-Jones
Alberts-Parent

Harding?
Anderson?

And all it would cost them is Lupul, Carle, the downgrade from van Riemsdyk to Tlusty, and their first round pick.
Gagne (5.25) - Richards (5.75) - Briere (6.50)
Hartnell (4.20) - Carter (5.00) - Ponikarovsky (2.11)
Tlusty (0.89) - Giroux (0.82) - Nodl (0.85)
Carcillo (0.89) - Powe (0.52) - Asham (0.64)
Cote (0.55)

Timonen (6.33) - Parent (0.86)
Kaberle (4.25) - Coburn (1.30)
Sbisa (0.88) - FA (3.00)

Harding (2.50)
Emery (1.50)

That's 54.59m spent and Marshall is allowed to progress a year defensively in the AHL.

And of course that would likely be the set up if the Flyers made the following deals:

To TOR:
JVR, Carle, 1st

To PHI:
Kaberle, Tlsuty, Ponikarovsky, 2nd

----------------------------------------

To MIN:
Lupul, 3rd

To PHI:
Harding's rights

---------------------------------------

To THE HOCKEY GRAVEYARD:
Jones

To PHI:
Freedom

--------------------------------------

Sign: Emery (1yr @ 1.5m)
Sign: FA Defenseman (2yr @ 3.00m)

That of course is all dependent on us using Lupul to get Harding from Minnesota or of course Halak from Montreal, or someone from Nashville's system. We can't trade him to you so I substituted Carle instead.

Likely won't work of course, but we can't use Lupul in two deals. Carle is the defensive equivilant to Lupul value wise. It really does depend on a team's needs as it always does.

I still don't know how much faith I have in Poni and Tlusty which would be the selling point for the Flyers in this deal believe it or not. Kaberle is nice, but if we're giving up Carle or Lupul the replacements have to be there offensively.

I'm not sold on the way Tlusty has progressed with the Marlies though I'm obviously no expert on them. Poni I think would be decent on Carter's wing, and wouldn't hurt the team at least defensively.

Still I'm cautious about this deal. I think we could get more from other sources than from Toronto especially if a prospect like JVR is involved.

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Old
05-14-2009, 01:08 PM
  #43
DougGilmour93
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Thats not the point I'm trying to make, I'm talking about the way the OP came up with the trade. He said that the 2nd would have to get bumped up to a 1st because Lupul and Carle have negative value, which is retarded.

Besides, if Kubina does have 1st round value like you say (just like Antropov was), then why the hell are we adding on Lupul and Carle on top of the 1st round pick???

I assume the OP is under the impression that Lupul and Jones aren't positive assets, rather they are negative. Bad contracts. Call it paying for potential if you like. Bottom line is they aren't worth their contracts right now.

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05-14-2009, 01:09 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
I assume the OP is under the impression that Lupul and Jones aren't positive assets, rather they are negative. Bad contracts. Call it paying for potential if you like. Bottom line is they aren't worth their contracts right now.
Actually I've proven Lupul is very much worth his contract:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=638865

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05-14-2009, 01:16 PM
  #45
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Our first is going to be either 21st, 20th or 19th, we'll find out tonight. That should get you a player like Mike Richards. Kubina has never and will never be worth anywhere close to a Mike Richards type player (even as just a prospect) even in your wildest dreams.
You've got to be kidding. That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen around here. You'd be lucky to have a top five pick turn out to be as good as Mike Richards. A 20th overall pick would be lucky to turn into Joffrey Lupul.

2003 was an aberration, and even if you assume that 2009 will be just as deep, you'd be just as likely to draft a Robert Nilsson or Steve Bernier with the pick.

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05-14-2009, 01:20 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
I terms of skating.. both in the same league. No interest from me. Zero. Rather overpay for Bouwmeester.

I am not sure why fans think Kubina is worth 1st round pick. Kubina should receive McCabes type of return, maybe a little better but not a lot better. A player and a pick, maybe even a 2nd round pick but definitely not a 1st round pick.
Oh boy.

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05-14-2009, 01:20 PM
  #47
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You've got to be kidding. That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen around here. You'd be lucky to have a top five pick turn out to be as good as Mike Richards. A 20th overall pick would be lucky to turn into Joffrey Lupul.

2003 was an aberration, and even if you assume that 2009 will be just as deep, you'd be just as likely to draft a Robert Nilsson or Steve Bernier with the pick.
One thing the Flyers have done well is draft forwards in the 1st round. That's why I don't trust forward prospects from other teams...Tlusty for instance.

And I think that comment was more from a lack of knowledge from the pains other teams seem to go through when drafting forwards in the first round. Sometimes we take our abilities for granted.

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05-14-2009, 01:24 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
I assume the OP is under the impression that Lupul and Jones aren't positive assets, rather they are negative. Bad contracts. Call it paying for potential if you like. Bottom line is they aren't worth their contracts right now.
In the box where you quoted me, I said that the OP is treating Lupul and Carle as if they are negative assets. So what exactly are you assuming? And its not Jones, its Carle.

And like twenty2 just posted, Lupul is right around market value if you were to sign him on the open market (AKA Market Value). Carle was paid for his first season in the league, but he is still a good defender, is good at moving the puck around, but can make some mistakes at times. He is still young and can improve on that type of thing, and has time to play out his contract.

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05-14-2009, 01:25 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by twenty2 View Post
Gagne (5.25) - Richards (5.75) - Briere (6.50)
Hartnell (4.20) - Carter (5.00) - Ponikarovsky (2.11)
Tlusty (0.89) - Giroux (0.82) - Nodl (0.85)
Carcillo (0.89) - Powe (0.52) - Asham (0.64)
Cote (0.55)

Timonen (6.33) - Parent (0.86)
Kaberle (4.25) - Coburn (1.30)
Sbisa (0.88) - FA (3.00)

Harding (2.50)
Emery (1.50)

That's 54.59m spent and Marshall is allowed to progress a year defensively in the AHL.

And of course that would likely be the set up if the Flyers made the following deals:

To TOR:
JVR, Carle, 1st

To PHI:
Kaberle, Tlsuty, Ponikarovsky, 2nd

----------------------------------------

To MIN:
Lupul, 3rd

To PHI:
Harding's rights

---------------------------------------

To THE HOCKEY GRAVEYARD:
Jones

To PHI:
Freedom

--------------------------------------

Sign: Emery (1yr @ 1.5m)
Sign: FA Defenseman (2yr @ 3.00m)

That of course is all dependent on us using Lupul to get Harding from Minnesota or of course Halak from Montreal, or someone from Nashville's system. We can't trade him to you so I substituted Carle instead.

Likely won't work of course, but we can't use Lupul in two deals. Carle is the defensive equivilant to Lupul value wise. It really does depend on a team's needs as it always does.

I still don't know how much faith I have in Poni and Tlusty which would be the selling point for the Flyers in this deal believe it or not. Kaberle is nice, but if we're giving up Carle or Lupul the replacements have to be there offensively.

I'm not sold on the way Tlusty has progressed with the Marlies though I'm obviously no expert on them. Poni I think would be decent on Carter's wing, and wouldn't hurt the team at least defensively.

Still I'm cautious about this deal. I think we could get more from other sources than from Toronto especially if a prospect like JVR is involved.
That's not a bad looking team for next season but it falls apart after that. In 2010 you have to find money to resign Coburn, Parent, Powe, Carcillo, Tlsuty and Ponikarovsky with no significant salary coming off the books. Then in 2011 you have to resign Gagne, Carter, Giroux, Nodl and Sbisa with only Kaberle likely to not return. The team starts to fall apart very quickly and you have no NHL top 6 forards in the system to replace departing players. That's a big time mistake.

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05-14-2009, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
You've got to be kidding. That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen around here. You'd be lucky to have a top five pick turn out to be as good as Mike Richards. A 20th overall pick would be lucky to turn into Joffrey Lupul.

2003 was an aberration, and even if you assume that 2009 will be just as deep, you'd be just as likely to draft a Robert Nilsson or Steve Bernier with the pick.
????? WTF are you smoking. Have you been living in a cave for the last 6 years???? You do know that this years draft is suppose to rival the 2003 draft for both quality and quantity right??? You do know that in 2003, the last time there was a draft class this talented and this deep, that we drafted Mike Richards with the 24th pick right. You do know that Corry Perry went 28th right??? Or how about Ryan Kesler at #23??? Or even Ryan Getzlaf at #19??? If you are actually Canadian and don't know that the players available at our pck are going to have top end ability then don't know what to tell you. If YOU can't draft the right player then I don't want to hear your crying. Unless all the PROFESSIONAL scouts (you know, the guys who actually get paid to look at these kinds of things and know a ton more than guys on an internet message board) then I think it's safe to say that probably a good 5-7 of the players taken in the #19-#30 pick in this years draft with be impact players for their team.

However, it's obvious that you know more than actual professional scouts ad everyone taken after the 15th pick in every draft will never be anyhting more than a 2nd line player at best.

H is the list of top quality layers taken for #19 to #28 in the 03 draft: Getzlaf, Burns, Stuart, Kesler, Richards and Perry. That's 6 out of 10. Those aren't exactly shot in the dark type odds. Burns is pretty damn good at drafting himself so I personally wouldn't have a problem with him finding a quality player at that pick just like I'm fully confident that our GM and staff will find a quality player there too.


Last edited by phlocky: 05-14-2009 at 01:42 PM.
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