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SIRH Study - No Correlation Between % Quebecois Players and Success for Habs

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Old
05-14-2009, 12:40 PM
  #1
kernkraft
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SIRH Study - No Correlation Between % Quebecois Players and Success for Habs

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/sports/hoc...as-de-pair.php

Wow, what a surprise. I would only have bet everything I own that it wasn't true.

Unfortunately there aren't enough recent championships to compare data for my taste. But this is nonetheless important as it is getting publication in a major newspaper.

What be will the 'pundits' reactions? I guess they'll just deny it outright without counter-arguments. I can just picture Bergeron doing so.


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05-14-2009, 12:43 PM
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Kriss E
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Wow..really?..who would have thought..

Only morons think there's a correlation.

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05-14-2009, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by kernkraft View Post
http://www.cyberpresse.ca/sports/hoc...as-de-pair.php

Wow, what a surprise. I would only have bet everything I own that it wasn't true.

Unfortunately there aren't enough recent championships to compare data for my taste. But this is nonetheless important as it is getting publication in a major newspaper.

What be will the 'pundits' reactions? I guess they'll just deny it outright without counter-arguments. I can just picture Bergeron doing so.

Claim that the polling company is secretly owned by an Anglo.

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05-14-2009, 12:47 PM
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But I thought we won cups with guys like Begin, Brisebois, Dandenault, Laraque, Lapierre and Latendresse.

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05-14-2009, 12:54 PM
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Gros Bill
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Thank god for La Presse, for bringing this to light.

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05-14-2009, 01:00 PM
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Goldthorpe
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Originally Posted by CanadienErrant View Post
You should look at the graphic more closely. I know you are biased and anti-French, but show common sense for once !

Last Cup= 13 Quebecers

1986 CUP= At least 10 to 12

Have you seen the fifties ?


It's not a matter of number. It's a matter of QUALITY !

the ones we had 5 years ago were no superstars ! Perreault, Juneau, Dagemais, etc...

We need some Roys and Lafleurs !
Exactly. It's not a matter of numbers, it's a matter of quality. So it's true, there's no correlation between the % of quebecois players and the habs success.

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05-14-2009, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Goldthorpe View Post
Exactly. It's not a matter of numbers, it's a matter of quality. So it's true, there's no correlation between the % of quebecois players and the habs success.
We have 10 European players... Are we better ?

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05-14-2009, 01:08 PM
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MathMan
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In other words: good players win Cups, regardless of origin. Whether they're called Lafleur or Naslund or Richard or Blake or Lach or whatever is of little consequence -- the quality of the players is far more important than their point of origin.

The issue is not whether the team has 10 Quebeckers or 10 Europeans -- that is entirely irrelevant. The only issue is whether the players are good enough.

That this is Earth-shattering news to anyone is quite mind-boggling.

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05-14-2009, 01:08 PM
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Goldthorpe
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Originally Posted by CanadienErrant View Post
We have 10 European players... Are we better ?
We shouldn't be any better or worst since there's no correlation.

In other words, it's not important where a player comes from. What's important is if he is any good or not.

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05-14-2009, 01:09 PM
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Before this turns into a bashfest I wanted to add 2 cents.

I want the best players possible to help the Habs win the cup, whatever nationality they are. Having said that, I feel I am in the minority as a Habs fan from Ontario that would actually like to see more French guys on the team. Not just because they are French but because they have an understanding of what the Habs mean to the community and their fans. Again not just guys that are French but guys that have the CH tattooed on their hearts.

I am happy that we have real Habs fans like Higgins and Subban as well but obviously there would be more French Hab fans from Quebec.

Anyways I do not think it is the worst thing in the world for people from Quebec to want some of their own playing for the hometown team, but at the same that should not give anyone special or preferential treatment, just my 2 cents.

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05-14-2009, 01:13 PM
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Iwishihadacup
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Originally Posted by 11Goat11 View Post
Before this turns into a bashfest I wanted to add 2 cents.

I want the best players possible to help the Habs win the cup, whatever nationality they are. Having said that, I feel I am in the minority as a Habs fan from Ontario that would actually like to see more French guys on the team. Not just because they are French but because they have an understanding of what the Habs mean to the community and their fans. Again not just guys that are French but guys that have the CH tattooed on their hearts.

I am happy that we have real Habs fans like Higgins and Subban as well but obviously there would be more French Hab fans from Quebec.

Anyways I do not think it is the worst thing in the world for people from Quebec to want some of their own playing for the hometown team, but at the same that should not give anyone special or preferential treatment, just my 2 cents.
yeah in theory, its all fine and dandy, but pratically, when we hire some french pluggers, like dandenault Bouillon, Begin and Co, and that force the coach to play them over better players to avoid the media's rage, it does NOT help the team at all

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05-14-2009, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by kernkraft View Post
http://www.cyberpresse.ca/sports/hoc...as-de-pair.php

Wow, what a surprise. I would only have bet everything I own that it wasn't true.

Unfortunately there aren't enough recent championships to compare data for my taste. But this is nonetheless important as it is getting publication in a major newspaper.

What be will the 'pundits' reactions? I guess they'll just deny it outright without counter-arguments. I can just picture Bergeron doing so.

It's hard to make a good correlation. In this case, they calculated the % of games played by Quebecers during a season, and related it to a Championship. By this method, you don't add importance to the importance of the Quebecer on the roster. Is he playing on the top line or the fourth one?

Still, there is in fact a correlation that gets out of the graphic if you look at it and think by yourself (something most readers here I am sure could do).

In 08-09, less than 30% of the games were played by Quebecers. In the past century, Habs won only 2 Stanley Cups with such a low ratio.

They won all their other Stanley Cups while having at least 40% of the games played by Quebecers.

Conclusion: to win, this team needs additionnal Quebecers.

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05-14-2009, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Iwishihadacup View Post
yeah in theory, its all fine and dandy, but pratically, when we hire some french pluggers, like dandenault Bouillon, Begin and Co, and that force the coach to play them over better players to avoid the media's rage, it does NOT help the team at all
You really think that coaches are playing the "French" guys BECAUSE of the medias... ?

WOW... just wow... How many watts up there ?


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05-14-2009, 01:15 PM
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MathMan
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Originally Posted by Iwishihadacup View Post
yeah in theory, its all fine and dandy, but pratically, when we hire some french pluggers, like dandenault Bouillon, Begin and Co, and that force the coach to play them over better players to avoid the media's rage, it does NOT help the team at all
Considering the underuse of a front-line French-Canadian player such as Tanguay contrasted with the overuse of an English-Canadian player like Kostopoulos, I think the problem there was a coach that lived his pluggers too much as opposed to media that loved the French Canadians too much and forced the coach to play them.

If anything, Carbonneau tended to underuse French-Canadians -- Begin and Dandenault, for example, but also Latendresse. Tanguay is the most egregious example, but he wasn't the only one.

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05-14-2009, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by 11Goat11 View Post
Before this turns into a bashfest I wanted to add 2 cents.

I want the best players possible to help the Habs win the cup, whatever nationality they are. Having said that, I feel I am in the minority as a Habs fan from Ontario that would actually like to see more French guys on the team. Not just because they are French but because they have an understanding of what the Habs mean to the community and their fans. Again not just guys that are French but guys that have the CH tattooed on their hearts.

I am happy that we have real Habs fans like Higgins and Subban as well but obviously there would be more French Hab fans from Quebec.

Anyways I do not think it is the worst thing in the world for people from Quebec to want some of their own playing for the hometown team, but at the same that should not give anyone special or preferential treatment, just my 2 cents.
BLAHBLAHBLAH Habs pride my ass...How come I don't hear about this pride crap with Detroit or New Jersey? Zach Parise is completely committed to the Devils because that's the kind of person he is. It has nothing to do with where he comes from or how proud he is. Can we please just get over this already? It's all about the person's character, not their "pride."

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05-14-2009, 01:18 PM
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Iwishihadacup
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Considering the underuse of a front-line French-Canadian player such as Tanguay contrasted with the overuse of an English-Canadian player like Kostopoulos, I think the problem there was a coach that lived his pluggers too much as opposed to media that loved the French Canadians too much and forced the coach to play them.
I'm sorry, but when media's first question to a coach is: Why didnt you put Begin in the lineup tonight? or when the do articles about Dandenault spending time in the pressbox, we have a little problem

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05-14-2009, 01:20 PM
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I agree that measuring the team success by looking at their championship wins isn't exactly a good idea. Championships are events way too rare and random to mean much.

They should have used regular season points, or numbers of playoff games won instead.

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05-14-2009, 01:20 PM
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Just have to add: From my experience, hockey players can be good guys or **********. A ********* is a ********* no matter where he comes from, and there's plenty of ********** who are French who wouldn't wear the CH with pride. Good guys can come from anywhere, and pride has nothing to with it. It's a bunch of ********; having the same nationality as someone doesn't make you intangibly better than someone else.

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05-14-2009, 01:22 PM
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Gros Bill
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This thread is doomed. The same pig-headed opinions will be expressed by the same pig-headed posters on both "sides" of this debate. And what will we learn? Nothing, except the lengths either "side" will go to "prove" it's unprovable point.

Yuck.

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05-14-2009, 01:24 PM
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vokiel
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I'll just say this: Correlation DOES NOT EQUAL Causation.

It goes both ways of course

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05-14-2009, 01:25 PM
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Well, thats not what I see in this graph.

There's seem to be a bunch of Stanley Cups in the quebecers peak.

You've got to keep perspective in the analysis. There seem to be an unsuccessfull peak in 1920-30, but you need to keep in mind that the Habs wasn't considered the most successfull act of Quebec culture at this point.

You have to go from the post-Rocket era, in which the correlation is pretty evident.

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05-14-2009, 01:30 PM
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05-14-2009, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Gros Bill View Post
This thread is doomed. The same pig-headed opinions will be expressed by the same pig-headed posters on both "sides" of this debate. And what will we learn? Nothing, except the lengths either "side" will go to "prove" it's unprovable point.

Yuck.
I'll go out on a limb here. When you have better players, you increase your chances to win.

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05-14-2009, 01:40 PM
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Gros Bill
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I'll go out on a limb here. When you have better players, you increase your chances to win.
That's pretty controversial, but you may be on to something. However, I'm afraid your theory falls apart at the mere mention of the name "Rick Chartraw". Borderline NHLer, yet won 4 Stanley Cups with the Habs. Ergo, thence and Q.E.D, you need marginal talent to win Stanley Cups. In other words, we should have won at least 3 in the last 10 years.

Oops, almost forgot : only a real bébé la-la wouldn't agree with me.

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05-14-2009, 01:43 PM
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I did a study and found out a surprising fact.....


more good players = more Stanley Cups


that's just crazy!!!!!

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