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SIRH Study - No Correlation Between % Quebecois Players and Success for Habs

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Old
05-14-2009, 03:40 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by PatTraverse View Post
More than half of the players you named would have never played for the Canadiens if they were prospects today because the whole league would have acces to them.

There was no draft, bad transportation and only 6 teams.The Canadiens could easily scout the talent in Quebec in peace and could go and sign whatever players they wanted.Why did the Leafs have succes except with Anglophones?Because they almost had Ontario for themselves and could do the same as the Canadiens.If you check the Leafs stopped winning after the league started expanding and they instaured the draft.The reason we were still good was because Sam Pollock was a very clever man and was able to trick GM's like with the Lafleur 1st overall pick.

We won because we had good Quebecois player and not because they were Quebecois but because they were good.Why is that complicated for some people to understand i don't know.
Amen. Different eras. Things are not the same anymore. What once worked no longer does. The rules have changed. Sports have changed. You can't get all the good Quebecers anymore. Too bad so sad.

Hockey has evolved. It's time people's brains followed suit.

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05-14-2009, 03:41 PM
  #52
Bobby Clark
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Originally Posted by Caseofcups View Post
And yet this management team continually skips picking Quebec players to focus on European and American players and so far it's worked brilliantly
Why don't you show me the 1st overall pick the Canadiens had when they skipped on superstars like Lecavalier?

Or do you think we would win more with bottom 6 players like Talbot?It's pretty obvious that Pittsburgh is only winning because they have Talbot, Fleury and Letang and not because they have the likes of Crosby, Malkin and Gonchar.

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05-14-2009, 03:41 PM
  #53
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Tell that to the San Jose Sharks.
zing !

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05-14-2009, 03:45 PM
  #54
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Hey guys, let's play a game. How many Quebecers did Detroit have on their team last year? That's right. I thought so.

There is no French Canadian pride. It's a pile of ****, is what it is. Cups are won on talent, not pride. The Canadiens are a sports team just like any other. They have a storied history, but so the Red Wings, the Yankees, etc. Are these other teams hung up on the origin of their players? No. The Canadiens are not any more special than these other teams, no matter what you believe.

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05-14-2009, 03:47 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Newhabfan View Post
I hate when the word "science" is dragged in mud by so called "experts".

Seriously now - that article is BS from a scientific point of view.

First of all, the correlation statistics are the weakest of all. There was once a german statistician that proved there is a significant correlation between the number of storks seen in a city and the number of (human) births.
Yes, but, your thinking is backwards. It's up to the people making the claim that players' nationalities affects the chances of a championship to prove their point. Not the other way around. That's the scientific way.

The default assumption is that the team with better players and better cohesion will win. To prove otherwise, you need some strong evidence. Even if you pretend that the article doesn't provide stats either way, you can't use that towards proving the original point.

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05-14-2009, 03:52 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by CanadienErrant View Post
We have 10 European players... Are we better ?
I love how we this thread is about the % of a VERY specific group of people on the Habs, but yet we have 10 "Europeans". It's good to know that Saku Koivu, Alex Kovalev, Roman Hamrlik and Yannick Weber are all from this same, unified national/ethnic group that somehow we can all make general conclusions on their hockey prowess on.

Also, the fact is from 1909-1967 or so, there were virtually zero players not of Canadian or American origin in the NHL, so OF COURSE the % of Quebecois players was higher on the Habs back then. And guess what... it was MUCH EASIER to win a Cup back then. Heck, even the Leafs managed a couple times back then. And it was still relatively easy to win a Cup in the 1970s... and there were only a handful of European players back then as well. Come the 1990s, the NHL opened its doors to a massive influx of European talent with the Iron Curtain being lifted. They also had 30 different teams to play for by the end of the decade.

The #1 reason the Habs don't win the Cup as often as they used to is that it is MUCH MORE DIFFICULT to win now then it was back before 1980, even just to win twice in 13 years like they did after that date. Conversely, the #1 reason the Habs won't win the same ratio of Quebecois players on their team as they used to is that the worldwide talent pool has exploded, whereas the Quebecois one has remained fairly steady. There simply aren't the same % of Quebecois players now as there used to be... even with 30 teams.

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05-14-2009, 04:03 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Caseofcups View Post
No. But we sure won a ton with guys like, Lepine, Joliat, Beliveau, the Richard brothers, Plante, Cournoyer, Lemaire, Lafleur, Savard, Lemieux, Richer, Roy, Damphouse, Carbonneau, etc etc.
I guess you don't know what Evolution is..

Please come back to the present, we're in 2009!

The game has evolved, the league is bigger, players are better, and most importantly players now come from ALL OVER THE WORLD.
For some reason, your brain can't comprehend that.


Also, all the names you gave were pretty much superstars. Wow..what a genius you are!!

What if our team had Ovechkin, Malkin, Kovalchuk, Datsyuk, Lundqvist, Lidstrom, Chara...think we'd have a good chance to win?


Since you're such a genius, name me all the Quebecers you'd like to have on our team. Please make a list, and a credible one, respecting all the rules of today's league.

And hurry up, I want to laugh before going back to work.

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05-14-2009, 04:09 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Yea, and you don't take into considerations the fact that very little Europeans/Russians were in the league back in those days.
That movement started in the 80s, and it was slow at first.

Do you think the NHL would be the strongest league in the world if Europe would have made one themselves gathering all Europeans/Asians stars instead of letting them all go across??
You can be sure the NHL wouldn't be as big as it is today.

When's the last time a Quebecer finished top scorer?..Lemieux?
This season, out of the top 20 scores, there was only 1 Quebecer, Martin St-Louis.

Bringing in more quality Qc born players, would be amazing.
Bringing in more quality English Canadian players would be amazing.
Bringing in more quality American players would be amazing.
Bringing in more quality Europeans/Asians would be amazing.

Note that the word QUALITY is what's important.

Would you chose Lecavalier over Malkin? (Centers)
Would you chose St-Louis over Alfredsson? (Right Wingers)
Would you chose Gagné over Semin or Kovalchuk? (Left Wingers)
Would you take Beauchemin over Markov? (Defensemen)

Goaltending is the only position where the Quebs are still the best, mainly thanks to Brodeur and Luongo.
But other than these two..
Would you take Fleury over Backstrom or Lundqvist?


The name of the player is completely irrelevant.
To the ones who answered my message:

You are right about the proportion of Quebecers being lower in the whole league right now. You are also right if you noticed there isn't enough championships in the past 20 years (n=1)... because that year, the team was filled with north americans/quebecers. Still, those two comments should be applied to the study that tried to mesure sommething. As I first stated, the maths there aren't bringing the best correlation. I feel the company that made it just wanted some exposure.

That said, Montreal as something no other team in the league has: a winning history. And that winning history is at the root of several nationalists. Like it or not. Montreal as something other cities don't have. Why should we look over that and not try to take advantage of the situation?

Some will say that Quebecers don't want to come here. But had a good concentration of players, and each of them will have less pressure on his shoulders.

Anyway, I have never been a fan of that "bring quebecois in that team"... However, I am in the group that wants more "north american players" in the team. Why? Because I am convinced there is a larger proportion of north-american players that care about winning during the playoffs than europeans. Yes, there is the red wings... but each and every of those europeans grew within the club.

Maybe that's where it all should start?

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05-14-2009, 04:19 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Caseofcups View Post
Taxation, taxation , taxation.

Guaranteed if the provincial legislature passed an amendment creating some big tax loophole for professional athletes, players would be saying "how they miss home and would love to play for yheir childhood team" blah blah blah. It's all about the money.
So you're saying these french players want to play here but won't do it because they won't get as much money?

And you want more people like this??

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05-14-2009, 04:20 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Kafka View Post

Anyway, I have never been a fan of that "bring quebecois in that team"... However, I am in the group that wants more "north american players" in the team. Why? Because I am convinced there is a larger proportion of north-american players that care about winning during the playoffs than europeans. Yes, there is the red wings... but each and every of those europeans grew within the club.

Maybe that's where it all should start?
So if you're saying Detroit's players worked well because most of them were drafted and brought up by the organization, well then you can say the same for us.
All of our youngsters were brought up here, whatever their nationality.

NA don't care more about the game, I don't buy that for a second.
You have players that were born and grew up in countries across the world, yet were still enough motivated to dream and come to the NHL. If that doesn't show they care...

There might be a few exceptions in the NHL, some players might be more interested in their financial security and living conditions than to win the Cup. But the majority of players around the world, in every sport, want to win.

You can't possibly reach the top league of a sport without really caring about winning. Thinking otherwise is just dumb.

Building a winning team is tough. There's many ways to build one, but at the end of the day, only 1 will win.
The trick is to have a big group of guys that complement each other perfectly and that all of them are on the same page.
You can accomplish that with a mix of all kinds, it really doesn't matter at all.

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05-14-2009, 04:31 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
So you're saying these french players want to play here but won't do it because they won't get as much money?

And you want more people like this??

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05-14-2009, 04:38 PM
  #62
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Yes, because French people are better players for the Habs . Basically insuinating that other groups will be inferior if they play for the Habs...and we're the ones who don't understand? What I understand is that you're blinded by patriotism, which is the most pathetic and disgusting thing. It would be like saying government employees from Quebec are better than government employees working for the Quebec govt but born elsewhere. It doesn't make sense. Being born in a certain place doesn't make you better for the job.

If you want to argue causation, you have to argue the logic behind it. A "feeling" is not logic. Talent is logical, and talent has always won Cups, not feelings.

I have never say a group is better than another one. Im commenting on the study. Statstic is not all. Have you ever do sports? Humans are not robots, of course your feelings/emotions can influence your play, preparation. Cant beleive your saying that and that patriotism is the worst thing ever

Cmon you know what represents this team to Quebec.

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05-14-2009, 04:41 PM
  #63
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What isn't mentionned is that guys like Doug Harvey, Ken Mosdell and Gerry McNeil (amongst others...) were pretty important parts of the 52-53 team (I took a very small sample, but it's kindof easy to see where I'm going with it).

Alone, those guys make for, what, 10% of games played?
They're from Quebec.
They aren't french.

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05-14-2009, 04:46 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post


Prove that quebecers play better with the Habs than they would with other teams.

En passant tu devrais laisser faire les petits commentaires anti-anglo, question de pas tous nous faire passer pour des caves.
Its something you cannot see, you cannot mesure. Everything is in you heart. Since when players do not play with emotion? I don't know if you are enough older to have had the chance to see lemieux, beliveau, savard, cournoyer and cie.. go ask them if they were more motivated to play for de canadians and represents the Quebec? A guy who is born in Ontario would not be proud to play for the Leafs? They what the organization represents for them and for their copatriots.

Le commentaire n'etait pas anti-anglo. Je ne suis seulement pas du tout surpris de la reaction de nos amis anglo. Argumente au lieu de me traiter de cave et arrete de toujours t'inquieter ce que le monde pense de nous.

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05-14-2009, 04:49 PM
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05-14-2009, 04:51 PM
  #66
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This just really reminds me of Cherry and his anti-Euro agenda always bashing the Leafs for not drafting "Good Canadian Boys".

The guy worships the likes of Gilmour with the Leafs yet they never won anything with them but obviously they are not winning because of too many Euros.

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05-14-2009, 04:51 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Sumhabs View Post
I have never say a group is better than another one. Im commenting on the study. Statstic is not all. Have you ever do sports? Humans are not robots, of course your feelings/emotions can influence your play, preparation. Cant beleive your saying that and that patriotism is the worst thing ever

Cmon you know what represents this team to Quebec.
You are right to say that, on the aggregate, there is probably a bigger proportion of quebecers having an emotional attachment to performing for the habs compared to the other countries/ethnic groups. But that's only true on the aggregate. Players are drafted and signed based on their individual skills and motivation, not on aggregate data.

When some journalist writes an article saying the habs should have more quebec-born players, they don't make this distinction - and that's where the problem resides. The habs should definitively do everything in their power to draft and sign players who have the team at their heart. That some (or many) of these players are also quebecers is only incidental. Plenty of canadians, americans and europeans also have strong work ethics, and we want to have them too.

So it's not "bring more quebec-born players", it's "bring more players who have character and are ready to perform at the measure of this team's winning tradition". And unfortunately these players tend to be rarer than we would prefer - including among quebecers.

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05-14-2009, 04:54 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by PatTraverse View Post
This just really reminds me of Cherry and his anti-Euro agenda always bashing the Leafs for not drafting "Good Canadian Boys".

The guy worships the likes of Gilmour with the Leafs yet they never won anything with them but obviously they are not winning because of too many Euros.
There are many, many goods reasons to hate Cherry.
However, blaming them of never replacing Doug Gilmour is wrong.
and blaming Gilmour (or sortof) because his team was beated by Gretzky's team is wrong as well.

The Gilmour team was way better than everything they offered since. This said, the new Gilmour might just be .... hummmm... I dunno, NOT canadian.

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05-14-2009, 05:04 PM
  #69
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I have never say a group is better than another one. Im commenting on the study. Statstic is not all. Have you ever do sports? Humans are not robots, of course your feelings/emotions can influence your play, preparation. Cant beleive your saying that and that patriotism is the worst thing ever

Cmon you know what represents this team to Quebec.
Patriotism is the scourge of the world and it has caused countless wars. Patriotism makes you think you're better than someone else even though you can't really prove it. But, oh no, you're just "inherently" better. It's a pile of crap.

As for athletes not being robots, nobody said they were. The point is that people's emotions are not affected by where they're from. The emotions people go through are a virtue of their character. Franzen would be loyal to the Habs regardless of the fact that he's from Sweden.

As for what this team represents to Quebec, why can't you say the same about the Yankees? What is it with you people? It makes no sense. It's a hockey team. What you really think is emotional attachment is just misplaced and misguided nationalism. People just want to prove they're better and since the Canadiens are the only thing Quebec can think of where they might be better, then they feel the need to call it theirs. You would say the same for anything that proves that you're better than anyone else.

Guess what, though? The Canadiens don't prove you're better. At least not anymore. Nobody can dominate the NHL anymore. Also, whereas Canada was without a doubt the best hockey nation once, they have intense competition from the Russians and the Swedes. Europeans are among the best players in the league. French Canadians are just one group among many, and most don't even play for the Habs nor do they want to. So whatever feelings you have towards the Habs are historical notions at this point.

Furthermore, you can't use the Canadiens as a symbol of anything because of the way sports have been commercialized. Don't like it? Too bad. It's why some people intensely oppose globalization. They want everything to mean something beyond dollars. Fight it all you want, though, but it's the way the world is going.

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05-14-2009, 05:06 PM
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I agree 100% on your first paragraphe. But a scout can still take in consideration this element if both players are, in temrs of skills, at the same level. Thats the point. Its not to have 100% Canadiens club with only Quebecois.
And all else being equal, Gainey has always maintain he will prefer a quebecer. So this is the strategy the habs are already using.
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Work ethic and motivation are not the same thing.\
True but you know what I ment...
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I still think a Quebecer will always (not all of course) have more motivation to play for the Canadiens.
On the aggregate, yes. But when you draft or sign, you don't look for that. You look to see if the actual player has the motivation to play for the Canadiens or not. And that's not something his ethnicity will tell you.

Scots tend to be better bagpipe players than Americans. Lets say I'm looking to hire one for my medieval wedding. Will I make my selection based on the candidate's ethnicity, or will I simply select the best bagpipe player? There's an higher chance the best player happens to be Scots, true. But it's not a reason to not base your decision on how they individually play.

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05-14-2009, 05:11 PM
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Yes, but, your thinking is backwards. It's up to the people making the claim that players' nationalities affects the chances of a championship to prove their point. Not the other way around. That's the scientific way.

The default assumption is that the team with better players and better cohesion will win. To prove otherwise, you need some strong evidence. Even if you pretend that the article doesn't provide stats either way, you can't use that towards proving the original point.
I was not reacting to the content of the study but to the procedure and to the claims of being scientific. I do not say the results of the study are false - I say that the study is not reliable.

As for who has to prove what.... You can formulate your hypothesis the way you want in a research. And the usual procedure when you design the research is to try and prove the opposite hypothesis false.

For instance, in this particular case, the initial hypothesis would have been "The habs had more success when they had more Quebecers". Then, the so called Null Hypothesis, the one you want to test and reject would be "The differences in performance between editions of the Habs that had many Quebecers and other editions with fewer Quebecers can be explained by hazard".

Then you go and define you variables and your measures - what is the indicator of success - winning the Cup? number of points in a season? Playoff performance ? etc. What is the indicator for Quebec presence ? (they used "number of games played by quebecers as percentage" but this is highly debatable as measure - since the particular roles and impact of players is not taken into account).

Then you look for important variables that have to be controlled - like - the odds of winning the Stanley Cup (1/6 is not the same as 1/30). Or the overall percentage of Quebec players in the NHL. Or the existence of a draft system and the existence of a salary cap - etc... Maybe even the tax level. And so on.

And then you choose your statistic procedure - Correlation is one option but not always the best. A better options IMO would have been to compare the 10 editions with the highest percentage of Quebecers vs the 10 with the lowest percentage. Another discussion to be had here.

Regardless of it's conclusions - the study is very poor from a scientific point of view.

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05-14-2009, 05:14 PM
  #72
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Its something you cannot see, you cannot mesure. Everything is in you heart. Since when players do not play with emotion? I don't know if you are enough older to have had the chance to see lemieux, beliveau, savard, cournoyer and cie.. go ask them if they were more motivated to play for de canadians and represents the Quebec? A guy who is born in Ontario would not be proud to play for the Leafs? They what the organization represents for them and for their copatriots.

Le commentaire n'etait pas anti-anglo. Je ne suis seulement pas du tout surpris de la reaction de nos amis anglo. Argumente au lieu de me traiter de cave et arrete de toujours t'inquieter ce que le monde pense de nous.
You listing a bunch of superstar players doesn't mean anything. Of course, they'll be good players. If that's your proof, then it doesn't prove anything. You can't just make a claim you can't back up. I could just as easily say the most loyal guy (even if he is a foreigner) will be the most proud to play for a team. So far, you haven't proven me wrong. But I'm not the one making the claims. You are. PROVE that Quebecers have more pride and will play better for this team. See, the thing is you can't prove it at all. It's a bunch of conjecture and speculation. Of course, you can recourse to "it's something you can't understand," but fine. Then I'll do it to you. See how you like it.

I believe that the guys who have the most character will be loyal, not because they're from Quebec. If you're going to say this is wrong, then clearly you don't understand loyalty. It's something you'll never get.

See how easy that is?

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05-14-2009, 05:16 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by MonacoBlue View Post
Yes, because French people are better players for the Habs . Basically insuinating that other groups will be inferior if they play for the Habs...and we're the ones who don't understand? What I understand is that you're blinded by patriotism, which is the most pathetic and disgusting thing. It would be like saying government employees from Quebec are better than government employees working for the Quebec govt but born elsewhere. It doesn't make sense. Being born in a certain place doesn't make you better for the job.
Oh so you want to talk about something totally unrelated to hockey, like government employees?

If you had a boss that was being an ass hole, and you downright hated him to the point where you'd quit if you could find a better job, would you be giving the same kind of effort in your workplace as if you had a boss that you loved so much that you'd consider him family?

After all, an employee is an employee.


If I was a Quebec born player playing for the Habs, you could be damn sure that I'd give a greater effort, or maybe would oh I don't know... take bigger risk playing with an injury than say if I was playing for some Russian league. Why? Cause the Stanley cup is more important to me.

Perezhogin: where is he now? How come he's not playing with the habs?

I'm not saying that Euros have no heart, in fact it has nothing to do with heart, but place of birth CAN be a factor that affects the player's level of motivation. I'd say most of the time it won't make a difference, but some times, it will. You can't deny that.

Oh and you're replying someone that you accuse of having disgusting and pathetic blinded patriotism towards Quebecers. That guy... wouldn't you think he's give a greater effort playing for the habs by any chance? No. Impossible! Players are players.

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05-14-2009, 05:18 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by PatTraverse View Post
This just really reminds me of Cherry and his anti-Euro agenda always bashing the Leafs for not drafting "Good Canadian Boys".

The guy worships the likes of Gilmour with the Leafs yet they never won anything with them but obviously they are not winning because of too many Euros.
The same can't be said for the ducks that won the cup 2 years ago. He was all over that as well. There were a lot of Canadians on that team.

the 2007 ducks had 18 of 25 players that were canadian. 22 of 25 if you want to say Norht American players. That team seemed to do pretty well that year.

as for the leafs of the 1993 season. that team kicked the habs but in the regular season. and may have done the same if LA didn't win. They were a stacked team.

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05-14-2009, 05:20 PM
  #75
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I'm all for getting the best available player possible, but they have to have that winning spirit. Every player wants to win. The question is at what cost. NA players seem to put more of it on the line when it comes to the stanley cup.

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