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Old
05-16-2009, 09:33 PM
  #26
Barney Gumble
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Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
A ppqb takes backseat to that for us.
Except that's not really what Bieksa is.

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Old
05-16-2009, 10:20 PM
  #27
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Ohlund would actually be a pretty good fit in Florida. I'm not sure if the Canucks can afford Bouwmeester though, he may price himself out of their range.

As for the trade, I don't think we can give up Bieksa at this point. Horton is also developing a bit of an unfavorable reputation around the league, not sure if I even want him on the Canucks.

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05-16-2009, 10:33 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
Yeah, I think he's someone we'd want to sign. I wouldn't be surprised if his name was brought up a lot over the past week in the staff meetings.

Wrt the original proposal, I don't see us having interest. We can't trade Horton right now, we need to ADD another top 6 forward, not subtract one. A ppqb takes backseat to that for us.
I beg to differ.

You have Booth, Frolik, Stillman, Weiss and Matthias + Repik waiting for a crack at the lineup. Boynton and Bouwmeester are most likely going to another team, which leaves a huge gap on your defense. Bieksa helps fill one part of it, and he brings so much more to the table. Also Raymond could score 20-30 goals if he is properly developed. His speed could be an advantage in the Eastern Conference and he'll get 15 goals at the very minimum if he gets top six minutes.

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Old
05-17-2009, 12:46 AM
  #29
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It wouldn't be horrible if you make that deal on July 1st after you get Bouwmeester signed.

Without Bouwmeester that's a pretty horrible deal.
Yeah, just like it also wouldn't be bad if we traded for Pronger

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05-17-2009, 01:10 AM
  #30
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Bieksa, Mitchell, Edler and O'Brien just spent 2 weeks playing the role of pylon. None is close to a top pairing guy on a decent team and probably shouldn't be on the 2nd pairing of a team with hopes for a cup.
What kind of value can you place on guys like that?

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05-17-2009, 04:04 AM
  #31
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Bieksa, Mitchell, Edler and O'Brien just spent 2 weeks playing the role of pylon. None is close to a top pairing guy on a decent team and probably shouldn't be on the 2nd pairing of a team with hopes for a cup.
What kind of value can you place on guys like that?
Wow, seriously? The problem with these guys this year (except SOB, who is a #5-6 d-man) is that they're all #3 guys playing more minutes than they should be in Vancouver. Calling them pylons is a ****ing joke. Edler IMO had a great playoffs and was arguably our best d-man while Bieksa was average. Mitchell was absolutely awful and was the biggest problem with the defense in the Chicago series and he's going nowhere because of his NTC.

If you don't think they have value and that they've pylons, you're seriously on crack. Bieksa had 43 points and is an excellent tough puck-rushing defenseman who can skate very well. His downside is his puck-distribution and his mental aspect of the game. Edler was a 22 year old defenseman averaging 20+ minutes a game who put up 37 points on the #2 PP unit in his second year in the NHL. Edler would be on any team's second pairing now and has the potential to be one of the best #2 d-men in the league and that's why it would take a king's ransom for the Canucks to trade him at this point.

The problem with the Canucks is that we have a #2 guy made of glass (Salo) and three extremely solid #3 guys (Mitchell, Bieksa, Edler) and no #1. We need to get rid of one of those #3 guys for salary cap reasons so we can bring in a #1. But pylons? LOL.

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05-17-2009, 04:18 AM
  #32
Harold Druken
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Originally Posted by brevard View Post
Bieksa, Mitchell, Edler and O'Brien just spent 2 weeks playing the role of pylon. None is close to a top pairing guy on a decent team and probably shouldn't be on the 2nd pairing of a team with hopes for a cup.
What kind of value can you place on guys like that?
Wow. I really hope you are joking. Wow.

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Old
05-17-2009, 10:05 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Except that's not really what Bieksa is.
Well, he's no shutdown d-man, that's for sure. He's a lot more of a ppqb who is average defensively.

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Originally Posted by JohnHodgson View Post
I beg to differ.

You have Booth, Frolik, Stillman, Weiss and Matthias + Repik waiting for a crack at the lineup. Boynton and Bouwmeester are most likely going to another team, which leaves a huge gap on your defense. Bieksa helps fill one part of it, and he brings so much more to the table. Also Raymond could score 20-30 goals if he is properly developed. His speed could be an advantage in the Eastern Conference and he'll get 15 goals at the very minimum if he gets top six minutes.
One of Matthias or Repik MIGHT make our roster next season. It would be incredibly unwise to pencil them both in to the top 6 next season, especially when our greatest team need heading into next season is offense, specifically acquiring another top 6 center. Losing Bouw will hurt, and we're not going to totally replace him, but hopefully we can sign someone like Ohlund to replace him. Or if not, then hopefully we re-sign Skrastins. We cannot be trading away anymore top 6 forwards in order to acquire a defenseman. Our defense, with the right UFA addition, will still be good. It's our offense that needs the most work.

We don't need Raymond either, we have enough 3rd line players. Our depth at forward is good, it's the lack of top 6 firepower that we lack. If we wanted 15 goals minimum from a top 6 forward, we'd just move Dvorak up there, but that's not gonna happen. We need more like 20-25 goals mimimum from a winger. Raymond is far from being fully developed, so again, it would be very unwise to plug him in there and expect 20-25 goals next season.

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Old
05-17-2009, 11:50 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by mrmyheadhurts View Post
Ohlund would actually be a pretty good fit in Florida. I'm not sure if the Canucks can afford Bouwmeester though, he may price himself out of their range.

As for the trade, I don't think we can give up Bieksa at this point. Horton is also developing a bit of an unfavorable reputation around the league, not sure if I even want him on the Canucks.
Bouwmeester, to me anyways, does not seem like the player that will go to the place that offers him the most money.
I think he will most likely go to a team that pays him 6-6.5 million which is located in a hockey market than stay with a team like the Panthers for 7-7.5 million a year.

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Old
05-17-2009, 11:57 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by brevard View Post
Bieksa, Mitchell, Edler and O'Brien just spent 2 weeks playing the role of pylon. None is close to a top pairing guy on a decent team and probably shouldn't be on the 2nd pairing of a team with hopes for a cup.
What kind of value can you place on guys like that?
Ohlund, Mitchell and SOB spent the past 2 weeks looking like pilons. Bieksa, Edler and Salo had no problems in that regard.

As for your other comments, we will just chalk that up to your previously proven lack of hockey knowlege.

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Old
05-17-2009, 12:01 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by The Pucks View Post
Ohlund, Mitchell and SOB spent the past 2 weeks looking like pilons. Bieksa, Edler and Salo had no problems in that regard.

As for your other comments, we will just chalk that up to your previously proven lack of hockey knowlege.
I really don't think anyone on Vancouver's D spent the past 2 weeks looking like pylons except for SOB, and even he had a good first couple of games. Give credit to Chicago's speed and depth, and also after the Nucks lost that 2-1 game it looked like they tried to change their gameplan up and started to play the Hawks' speed game, and that's when they fell apart. All this "pylon" stuff is getting overblown. Vancouver has a good defense and they did the best they could for the most part. Chicago is just a better team. Although, like I said, they had the Hawks for the first couple games, and then they played right into their hands after that.

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Old
05-17-2009, 12:13 PM
  #37
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i would do


grabner
bieksa
and a conditional first if jay bow signs with vancouver

for
bo's rights
Horton
not with the conditional first......thats just horrible.

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Old
05-17-2009, 01:23 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
Well, he's no shutdown d-man, that's for sure. He's a lot more of a ppqb who is average defensively.



One of Matthias or Repik MIGHT make our roster next season. It would be incredibly unwise to pencil them both in to the top 6 next season, especially when our greatest team need heading into next season is offense, specifically acquiring another top 6 center. Losing Bouw will hurt, and we're not going to totally replace him, but hopefully we can sign someone like Ohlund to replace him. Or if not, then hopefully we re-sign Skrastins. We cannot be trading away anymore top 6 forwards in order to acquire a defenseman. Our defense, with the right UFA addition, will still be good. It's our offense that needs the most work.

We don't need Raymond either, we have enough 3rd line players. Our depth at forward is good, it's the lack of top 6 firepower that we lack. If we wanted 15 goals minimum from a top 6 forward, we'd just move Dvorak up there, but that's not gonna happen. We need more like 20-25 goals mimimum from a winger. Raymond is far from being fully developed, so again, it would be very unwise to plug him in there and expect 20-25 goals next season.

Again, you guys will have Booth, Stillman, Weiss, and Frolik. That's four top six forwards WITHOUT any trades or free agents. This is your defense: McCabe, Allen, Ballard, Eminger, Ellerby, and Garrison.

Ellerby and Garrison need time to develop, Eminger is at best a fifth/fourth defenseman, McCabe haven't played a full season for 2 years. Allen only played 2 games last season. You guys had one of the worst powerplays in the leauge, and with the loss of Jaybo, your powerplay is going to be even worse.

And Raymond is a "potential" 20-30 goal scorer. He has amazing speed and would do well with top six minutes. He could be your potential replacement for Horton a couple years later.

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Old
05-17-2009, 01:32 PM
  #39
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I'd rather keep Bieksa.

He's part of a good movement that Gillis is pushing forward with this club.

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Old
05-17-2009, 01:39 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by JohnHodgson View Post
Again, you guys will have Booth, Stillman, Weiss, and Frolik. That's four top six forwards WITHOUT any trades or free agents. This is your defense: McCabe, Allen, Ballard, Eminger, Ellerby, and Garrison.

Ellerby and Garrison need time to develop, Eminger is at best a fifth/fourth defenseman, McCabe haven't played a full season for 2 years. Allen only played 2 games last season. You guys had one of the worst powerplays in the leauge, and with the loss of Jaybo, your powerplay is going to be even worse.

And Raymond is a "potential" 20-30 goal scorer. He has amazing speed and would do well with top six minutes. He could be your potential replacement for Horton a couple years later.
Skratch will probably be re-signed, and this is a deal that intrigues me. DeBoer has this team built for speed, and Raymond seems to fit that bill. What's his skill set?

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05-17-2009, 01:52 PM
  #41
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Skratch will probably be re-signed, and this is a deal that intrigues me. DeBoer has this team built for speed, and Raymond seems to fit that bill. What's his skill set?
He's shown flashes of skill this season (the end of the playoffs where he played on the second line, and early in the year where he got 10 points in 10 games). He doesn't play on the powerplay a lot and his linemates this year were Kyle Wellwood and Steve Bernier. Not exactly the best playmakers. Their assists combined to only 26. With a good playmaker he's easily a 20 goal scorer with his speed.

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05-17-2009, 01:57 PM
  #42
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The most impressive part of Raymond's post-season was his willingness to go into high traffic areas and play with a physical edge, he was among the Canucks' leaders in hits. I think he's definitely got 20-30 upside, maybe more.

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Old
05-17-2009, 02:01 PM
  #43
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He's shown flashes of skill this season (the end of the playoffs where he played on the second line, and early in the year where he got 10 points in 10 games). He doesn't play on the powerplay a lot and his linemates this year were Kyle Wellwood and Steve Bernier. Not exactly the best playmakers. Their assists combined to only 26. With a good playmaker he's easily a 20 goal scorer with his speed.
to add to that, Raymond struggled for a lot of this season during a sophomore slump... his regular linemates weren't Wellwood and Bernier - that only happened when Pyatt wasn't in the lineup, and Pyatt did play the majority of his time with those 2... when he returned in the playoffs, Raymond basically filled Demitra's role on the 2nd line - and played better than Demitra did at any point in the playoffs... prior to that though, Raymond did spend a lot of time in the pressbox and playing on the 4th line beside Johnson and Hordichuk (right wing position, basically plugged into the lineup there, instead of his natural left wing spot).

The best thing about Raymond though was that he looked to take a serious step in his development when his team needed him most... he stepped up in the playoffs, which isn't that usual for young players like him, and especially those that don't bring much physical presence - which was the other surprising thing about Raymond - he hit consistently throughout the playoffs, and ended up 5th on the team in hits in the playoffs... easily the most physical I've seen Raymond, which bodes well for this future, considering it happened in the playoffs.

the other bonus about Raymond is his ability on special teams... he was solid on the PK and AV gave him a solid amount of PK time in the playoffs in key situations, where he did excel. He didn't get much PP time, but when he was on the PP, he played the point, which isn't the easiest transition for a young forward.

Overall, I think that Raymond has a solid future and should be a top 6 forward as early as next season, after the solid playoffs he just had... but I also am not sure if his fit is there in Vancouver... the Canucks need more physical presence on the wings, especially if Daniel is back, and with Demitra, 2 of your top 6 wingers aren't exactly physically imposing... throw in the center position (with Henrik, Wellwood, Hodgson) and the need for more physical presence becomes apparent. I'm not sure if Raymond is the best fit in such a group... but there's no doubt that he's talented, and no doubt that he took huge steps in his development this past playoffs, despite a sophomore slump he went through during the regular season.

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Old
05-17-2009, 04:45 PM
  #44
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It wouldn't be horrible if you make that deal on July 1st after you get Bouwmeester signed.

Without Bouwmeester that's a pretty horrible deal.
That would be the idea. Sign Jaybo then do the deal.

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Anyway you let go of Grabner instead of Raymond?

Van:
Grabner
Bieksa

Fla:
Horton
Bo's Rights.
Would be preferable...

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05-17-2009, 04:57 PM
  #45
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I really don't think anyone on Vancouver's D spent the past 2 weeks looking like pylons except for SOB, and even he had a good first couple of games. Give credit to Chicago's speed and depth, and also after the Nucks lost that 2-1 game it looked like they tried to change their gameplan up and started to play the Hawks' speed game, and that's when they fell apart. All this "pylon" stuff is getting overblown. Vancouver has a good defense and they did the best they could for the most part. Chicago is just a better team. Although, like I said, they had the Hawks for the first couple games, and then they played right into their hands after that.
Not to be argumentative, (but I guess I am) Ohlund was just so slow to react, his vision problems really showed up. Mitchell was asked to play to much because of injuries and the ineffectivness of Ohlund, which put him in a position to fail having to play against guys he just couldnt match up with.

It was masterfull coaching to exploit Vancouvers weakness.

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Old
05-17-2009, 06:53 PM
  #46
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Again, you guys will have Booth, Stillman, Weiss, and Frolik. That's four top six forwards WITHOUT any trades or free agents. This is your defense: McCabe, Allen, Ballard, Eminger, Ellerby, and Garrison.

Ellerby and Garrison need time to develop, Eminger is at best a fifth/fourth defenseman, McCabe haven't played a full season for 2 years. Allen only played 2 games last season. You guys had one of the worst powerplays in the leauge, and with the loss of Jaybo, your powerplay is going to be even worse.

And Raymond is a "potential" 20-30 goal scorer. He has amazing speed and would do well with top six minutes. He could be your potential replacement for Horton a couple years later.
OK...and when our biggest weakness is at forward, you want us to gamble that we can sign the two top 6 forwards we need in free agency instead of just one? That's a huge gamble especially considering Horton's upside. Like Laus said, re-signing Skrastins seems at least a good possibility right now. If not, we could go after guys like Ohlund, Morris, etc. We don't need a top pairing guy necessarily, just someone who could play respectable defensively and ease the loss of Bouw. We're already resigned to the fact that we're not going to replace Bouw's offense from the blueline and his ability to spark the transition game. You're not going to get a d-man in free agency with both his defensive ability and also his offensive prowess, without paying the money you'd have to pay him, in the neighborhood of 7 mil. We have only so much to spend, we might not even spend to the cap, so we need to address our forward position which is what we needed to address last season anyway.

We will be expecting Ballard to step up. McCabe had a freak injury in the first game of the season, he still has no recurring type injuries, I wouldn't label him as injury prone. The doctor who performed Allen's surgery said as long as he follows his rehab schedule, which he'll have plenty of time to finish this summer(and has had no setbacks in 8 months), he'll return as good as new and have no problems with that knee. Of course, he might not return to form that quickly, but I'm sure he'll get his legs under him eventually. And we will sign somebody else in free agency, again it doesn't have to be a stud, he just has to be a decent top 4 defensive d-man. That's a good top 4. Not great, but good. Then you have Eminger as the #5, and Garrison and Ellerby fighting it out for the last spot. That's not a top 10 defense anymore probably, but it's at least top 15-20. And a lot of us fans feel that our lack of PP success had to do primarily with asst. coach Jim Hulton's PP setups, rather than the personnel. Guy Charron had much better PP looks, and with roughly the same personnel only a year earlier, and our PP finished 6th.

We aren't going to gamble that Raymond could be a potential replacement for Horton in a couple years. With a good playmaking center, it's not a stretch at all to say Horton could score 35-40 goals. You can say that about Raymond with a straight face? I'm not saying he can't do it, but he's not as much of a sure thing as Horton, who has pretty good speed himself. Besides, a couple years later is too late for us. This franchise needs to make the playoffs. Soon. Very soon. We're not going into next season with a top 6 of Weiss, Booth, Stillman, Frolik, Repik, and Raymond like you want us to do. Not a chance in heck.

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Not to be argumentative, (but I guess I am) Ohlund was just so slow to react, his vision problems really showed up. Mitchell was asked to play to much because of injuries and the ineffectivness of Ohlund, which put him in a position to fail having to play against guys he just couldnt match up with.

It was masterfull coaching to exploit Vancouvers weakness.
Idk, maybe you watch Vancouver more than I do, but I didn't think Ohlund looked slow to react at all throughout much of the playoffs. If you mean was he quick on the ice, no he wasn't, but that was never Ohlund's game. He has always gotten by with sound positioning and good anticipation. I saw him reading plays, taking the body, and breaking up passes as well as he ever did. He might have made a couple mistakes here and there, but who doesn't. Now, I didn't watch every single game in the playoffs, and maybe you did. But I probably watched 75% of them, and I didn't see what you are referencing.

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05-17-2009, 07:30 PM
  #47
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^
Well if you guys make one or two top six signings, this trade could be more possible.

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05-18-2009, 11:21 AM
  #48
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^
Well if you guys make one or two top six signings, this trade could be more possible.
Yeah, but it would have to be two signings and they would have to be really good ones.

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