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what is Kaberle's trade value?

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Old
05-17-2009, 09:07 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
If the leafs can't get at least JvR + a 2nd (which is the approximate cost of Toronto moving from #45 to late 1st round).... then they're much better off keeping Kaberle.

He's one of the league's best all around defenceman, and if you're not going to get at least one player with the chance to be as good as he is, there's no incentive in moving him. There's no reason for Toronto to take on Philly's garbage.
You're getting confused with Kaberle 05-06. We're talking about Kaberle of today, you know, 4 goals and a minus 8.

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05-17-2009, 12:09 PM
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You're getting confused with Kaberle 05-06. We're talking about Kaberle of today, you know, 4 goals and a minus 8.
05-06 67 points in 82 games
06-07 58 points in 74 games = 64 in a full season
07-08 53 points in 82 games
08-09 31 points in 57 games = 45 in a full season

Oddly enough, 07-08 McCabe injured long term then traded and not replaced, he declines. 08-09 Sundin is gone and not replaced and he declines even more.

The leafs got rid of Sundin, McCabe, Wellwood, Tucker etc (which was their #1 pp unit) and moved their 3rd line to their 1rst, dressing a roster that would be considered a minor league team to many contender.

Put Kaberle in the position of someone like Boyle on San Jose or Rafalski on Detroit and he's good for 60+ points again easily, or even then a, mediocre team with an actual power play unit for that matter would be enough. He's only 31, hardly on the decline.

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05-17-2009, 12:24 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfried View Post
If the leafs can't get at least JvR + a 2nd (which is the approximate cost of Toronto moving from #45 to late 1st round).... then they're much better off keeping Kaberle.

He's one of the league's best all around defenceman, and if you're not going to get at least one player with the chance to be as good as he is, there's no incentive in moving him. There's no reason for Toronto to take on Philly's garbage.

No he isn't.

He is an elite playmaker, who is mobile, and good defensively (at his best). He sees the ice well, makes good defensive reads, and is hard to beat in open ice. But, he is also totally nonphysical, and can look disinterested in his own zone on some nights (as he did for most of this season). I also sometimes wonder if he is even capable of shooting the puck.

He'd be an excellent top pairing dman on a contending team that already had a strong defense, but he has repeatedly shown that he can't carry a bad team. His game is not complete enough and he doesn't have the temperament for it.

As far as league rank, I'd probably put him someplace in the 15 - 20 range. Based on last season, I probably wouldn't even put him that high.

He is underpaid, and that will raise his trade value, but he is not going to bring nearly the return that Leaf fans have been predicting. He is also going to bring a lot more return than many non-Leaf fans have been predicting.

Oh, and I don't buy the idea that he is in decline for a minute. I think scoring is down league wide, which accounts for the drop in points. Between the injury troubles, and Toronto's crappy season, I could see where he would be in a funk. Due for a big bounce back, IMO.

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05-17-2009, 01:50 PM
  #79
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I completely agree with that outline of what Kaberle brings to the table. There's not much to add there. I think a contender, or at least a wannabe contender, would be very interested in adding a player like that to their blue-line. To a non-playoff team, that value would be considerably less.

What i'd add is that Burke won't be looking to deal him for the sake of making a trade. A lot of Leaf fans forget this as well, and I think this points to Kaberle being a Leaf next year. If teams are offering relatively fair proposals, but not great offers, I think Burke will say forget it, and hit the free agent market this summer, or try to make a trade elsewhere.

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05-17-2009, 03:35 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
What this means in practicality....

If Philly wants Kaberle, its JvR + upgrade from our #45 pick to their #20 pick
If Columbus wants Kaberle, its Voracek or Filatov + upgrade from our #45 pick (& a another 2nd rounder) to their #15 pick
If Tampa wants Kaberle, its the 2nd overall.


#1 defenceman for #1 forward.... simple as that.
Wasn't this the same type of demented logic that had some Leafs fans clamoring that Antropov AT A MINIMUM would fetch a 1st round pick at this years trading deadline?

Look a late 1st and a good prospect (not the jewel of an organization) and maybe a mid-tier roster player.

Thats essentially the going rate for a very good defenseman.

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05-17-2009, 03:38 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Letang58 View Post
Kaberle and a mid-pick to Washington for Dave Steckel, Tomas Fleischmann, and a 1st.

Just throwing some ideas out there. Some may be a reach.

The guy is a top pairing defenseman in the prime of his career. He's becoming very, very underrated by some people.
I don't think Boudreau has any interest in moving Steckel.

I think a 1st and Fleischmann would be it. Or maybe a 1st, a prospect and maybe Morrisonn.

But the Caps would likely be more interested in Kubina.

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05-17-2009, 04:12 PM
  #82
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No he isn't.

He is an elite playmaker, who is mobile, and good defensively (at his best). He sees the ice well, makes good defensive reads, and is hard to beat in open ice. But, he is also totally nonphysical, and can look disinterested in his own zone on some nights (as he did for most of this season). I also sometimes wonder if he is even capable of shooting the puck.

He'd be an excellent top pairing dman on a contending team that already had a strong defense, but he has repeatedly shown that he can't carry a bad team. His game is not complete enough and he doesn't have the temperament for it.

As far as league rank, I'd probably put him someplace in the 15 - 20 range. Based on last season, I probably wouldn't even put him that high.

He is underpaid, and that will raise his trade value, but he is not going to bring nearly the return that Leaf fans have been predicting. He is also going to bring a lot more return than many non-Leaf fans have been predicting.

Oh, and I don't buy the idea that he is in decline for a minute. I think scoring is down league wide, which accounts for the drop in points. Between the injury troubles, and Toronto's crappy season, I could see where he would be in a funk. Due for a big bounce back, IMO.
That assesment of Kaberle is pretty much bang on.... although I wouldn't point to the fact that he is nonphysical and can look disinterested as a flaw neccessarily. The league's best defenceman is nonphysical for the most part; its just a sign of patience and an unwillingness to compromise position.

Considering that he's never used his body to suceed in the league; the chances that he's actually on the decline are not very strong; rather he's just had 1 terrible year and has suffered from the fact that even though he can make the breakaway passes, his forwards can't do anything with them.

In terms of value though; I think a lot of people are missing out on the fact that he is very valuable to the leafs. He is easily our best defenceman when he's on his game; and considering that he loves playing here; extending his contract to a lifetime deal for a significant hometown discount isn't out of the question. While we may be able to afford to part with him and take a downgrade to a guy like Beauchemin; that only makes sense if we fill a need up front. That need is top line talent.

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05-17-2009, 04:13 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by C-A-P-S View Post
I don't think Boudreau has any interest in moving Steckel.

I think a 1st and Fleischmann would be it. Or maybe a 1st, a prospect and maybe Morrisonn.

But the Caps would likely be more interested in Kubina.
what would the caps give for kubina?

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05-17-2009, 04:17 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
That assesment of Kaberle is pretty much bang on.... although I wouldn't point to the fact that he is nonphysical and can look disinterested as a flaw neccessarily. The league's best defenceman is nonphysical for the most part; its just a sign of patience and an unwillingness to compromise position. .
I totally disagree. Which of Pronger, Chara, Niedermayer are nonphysical like Kaberle? Even Lindstrom, who IMO has an underrated physical game, hits more than Kaberle.

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Considering that he's never used his body to suceed in the league; the chances that he's actually on the decline are not very strong; rather he's just had 1 terrible year and has suffered from the fact that even though he can make the breakaway passes, his forwards can't do anything with them..
For the most part, I agree. But, I'd have to point out that a player's most recent year generally has great signficance in determining trade value.

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In terms of value though; I think a lot of people are missing out on the fact that he is very valuable to the leafs. He is easily our best defenceman when he's on his game; and considering that he loves playing here; extending his contract to a lifetime deal for a significant hometown discount isn't out of the question. .
This point goes to the probability which he will stay a Leaf (which I agree with also). However, his value to the Leafs does not translate to market value around the league. Regardless of how important he is Toronto, he still is not going to command a whole lot more than a mid-round to late first in a deal.

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05-17-2009, 04:38 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
I totally disagree. Which of Pronger, Chara, Niedermayer are nonphysical like Kaberle? Even Lindstrom, who IMO has an underrated physical game, hits more than Kaberle.



For the most part, I agree. But, I'd have to point out that a player's most recent year generally has great signficance in determining trade value.



This point goes to the probability which he will stay a Leaf (which I agree with also). However, his value to the Leafs does not translate to market value around the league. Regardless of how important he is Toronto, he still is not going to command a whole lot more than a mid-round to late first in a deal.
Lidstrom is marginally more physical than Kaberle.

Of course a poor performance will have a negative impact on trade value; but the opportunity to acquire a defenceman of Kaberle's calibre with such a great contract doesn't come around too often. If he was coming off a great year; he'd be as untouchable as a guy like Rick Nash where you'd be giving up the entire farm to get him and still problably not make a deal work.

Kaberle commands much more than a mid-late first in a deal because the leafs would have 0 incentive to trade him for anything like that. Whether or not he gets it is a completely different question. If he does, he'll move, if not he'll be a Leaf.

Kaberle's trade value starts at a prospect like JvR & a 2nd round pick (or possibly a top 10 pick this year straight up); because we know that the leafs will not move him for anything less. From that starting point, there is the potential for his value to increase if more than one team can put together a package that satisfies the Leafs needs creating a bidding war.

Now, assuming that Briere waiving his NMC is a non-starter for him & his family at this point. Knowing that Bouwmeester is impossible; you can acquire a goaltender for the cost of Lupul or Carle (where the other one moves for prospects); would it be in the Flyers best interest to move JvR & a 2nd round pick? The answer is yes. The deal could even be expanded to include Tlusty-for-Lupul if Carle is used for a goaltender (and I'm sure Carle could also fetch a decent forward prospect from a team looking for a #4 puckmover).

Therefore, unless Philadelphia has a better deal on the table, or can't make it work cap wise, or decides that they'd rather spend their cap space on goaltenders; Kaberle's market value is that package....if not more.

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05-17-2009, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Lidstrom is marginally more physical than Kaberle.

Of course a poor performance will have a negative impact on trade value; but the opportunity to acquire a defenceman of Kaberle's calibre with such a great contract doesn't come around too often. If he was coming off a great year; he'd be as untouchable as a guy like Rick Nash where you'd be giving up the entire farm to get him and still problably not make a deal work.

Kaberle commands much more than a mid-late first in a deal because the leafs would have 0 incentive to trade him for anything like that. Whether or not he gets it is a completely different question. If he does, he'll move, if not he'll be a Leaf.

Kaberle's trade value starts at a prospect like JvR & a 2nd round pick (or possibly a top 10 pick this year straight up); because we know that the leafs will not move him for anything less. From that starting point, there is the potential for his value to increase if more than one team can put together a package that satisfies the Leafs needs creating a bidding war.

Now, assuming that Briere waiving his NMC is a non-starter for him & his family at this point. Knowing that Bouwmeester is impossible; you can acquire a goaltender for the cost of Lupul or Carle (where the other one moves for prospects); would it be in the Flyers best interest to move JvR & a 2nd round pick? The answer is yes. The deal could even be expanded to include Tlusty-for-Lupul if Carle is used for a goaltender (and I'm sure Carle could also fetch a decent forward prospect from a team looking for a #4 puckmover).

Therefore, unless Philadelphia has a better deal on the table, or can't make it work cap wise, or decides that they'd rather spend their cap space on goaltenders; Kaberle's market value is that package....if not more.
This is all a nice fantasy. But, the importance of Kaberle to the Leafs doens't mean that other teams will overpay for him.

This is a nonphysical dman, who is coming off a terrible year, and was never much more than average in his own zone to begin with. He is an elite skater and playmaker, but most other aspects of his game are average to below average.

You won't be getting JVR for him, let alone JVR+

And, BTW, Philly hasn't been in the market for a Kaberle type for some time. They've been much more interested in a Komisarek/Witt guy.

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05-17-2009, 05:19 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Hasn't scoring in the entire league been down during that period?
i think the poster was refering to his rank among dmen which is falling for the last 3 years, especially even strength. Last year, Kaberle's ES numbers were very bad for him and they are headed in the wrong direction.

Tough to say if he is in a irreversible decline or if the last couple of years have been a blip due to all the trade rumours.

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05-17-2009, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
This is all a nice fantasy. But, the importance of Kaberle to the Leafs doens't mean that other teams will overpay for him.

This is a nonphysical dman, who is coming off a terrible year, and was never much more than average in his own zone to begin with. He is an elite skater and playmaker, but most other aspects of his game are average to below average.

You won't be getting JVR for him, let alone JVR+

And, BTW, Philly hasn't been in the market for a Kaberle type for some time. They've been much more interested in a Komisarek/Witt guy.
Its A) not an overpayment and B) one of the only options that a team like Philly will have once all of the UFAs pass if they realize that they need a puckmoving defenceman.

The lack of need for a puckmover is the only real unknown reason as to why Philly would decline to pay the asking price.

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05-17-2009, 07:07 PM
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I find it funny that....

When you make a thread about trading Kaberle to the Flyers in another subforum... they flock to the thread and flame your ass to stop posting trades involving Kaberle to Philly/"That ship has already sailed"/they try to convince oyu they don't want Kaberle anymore.

But yet when a new thread involving Kaberle comes up they quickly come and post about trying to trade us ***** all for Kaberle... showing interest in the guy. Weird.

What gives guys?

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05-17-2009, 10:29 PM
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Honestly, I think the Isles would be lucky to get Kaberle straight up for the 1st overall pick.

The reason I'm greatly overrating his value is because many of the posters in this thread some to be greatly underrating it.

The guy is going to fetch a Pronger/Boyle type return, if not more. Accept it.

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05-17-2009, 10:38 PM
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Honestly, I think the Isles would be lucky to get Kaberle straight up for the 1st overall pick.

The reason I'm greatly overrating his value is because many of the posters in this thread some to be greatly underrating it.

The guy is going to fetch a Pronger/Boyle type return, if not more. Accept it.
no, hes not. hes not that good and hes only signed for 2 more years and hes already 31. and coming off a terrible year.

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05-17-2009, 10:43 PM
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no, hes not. hes not that good and hes only signed for 2 more years and hes already 31. and coming off a terrible year.
He IS good, just coming off a bad year. I have a hard time finding 20 defense men that better than him.

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05-17-2009, 10:47 PM
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the more i think about it, the more i want the guy on the rangers. but we'd have to send salary the other way. the only thing is, what other assets would make that salary more palatable.

i proposed gomez, girardi and a 1st for kabs and a 3rd in the other thread.

what about gomez, girardi, sanguinetti?

to you leaf fans- would you be interested in moving kaberle if gomez was going the other way? am i close with what i added to him to make such a deal reasonable?

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05-17-2009, 10:54 PM
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the more i think about it, the more i want the guy on the rangers. but we'd have to send salary the other way. the only thing is, what other assets would make that salary more palatable.

i proposed gomez, girardi and a 1st for kabs and a 3rd in the other thread.
?
what about gomez, girardi, sanguinetti
to you leaf fans- would you be interested in moving kaberle if gomez was going the other way? am i close with what i added to him to make such a deal reasonable?
In any deal for such a high salary in gomez, you guys will have to take on blake, or finger. how about
gomez,sanguinetti, 1st for kaberle, and blake

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05-18-2009, 12:13 AM
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no, hes not. hes not that good and hes only signed for 2 more years and hes already 31. and coming off a terrible year.
I find your comments funny, as you say that "he's not that good", and then immediately afterwards complain that 2 yrs of him is not enough.


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05-18-2009, 02:03 AM
  #96
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what would the caps give for kubina?
I think a number of posters here think a first, a roster defensman like Morrisonn and prospect like Osala is fair value.

Most caps fans balk at moving alzner or carlson unless you are talking a pronger trade.

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05-18-2009, 05:07 AM
  #97
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the more i think about it, the more i want the guy on the rangers. but we'd have to send salary the other way. the only thing is, what other assets would make that salary more palatable.

i proposed gomez, girardi and a 1st for kabs and a 3rd in the other thread.

what about gomez, girardi, sanguinetti?

to you leaf fans- would you be interested in moving kaberle if gomez was going the other way? am i close with what i added to him to make such a deal reasonable?
No way, Gomez is grossly overpaid with too long a contract. He's a negative asset.

The only way the rangers could even start a Kaberle discussion is if Staal's name was involved.

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05-18-2009, 06:51 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
No way, Gomez is grossly overpaid with too long a contract. He's a negative asset.

The only way the rangers could even start a Kaberle discussion is if Staal's name was involved.





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05-18-2009, 07:35 AM
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No way, Gomez is grossly overpaid with too long a contract. He's a negative asset.

The only way the rangers could even start a Kaberle discussion is if Staal's name was involved.


You're hilarious.

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05-18-2009, 07:52 AM
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I think a number of posters here think a first, a roster defensman like Morrisonn and prospect like Osala is fair value.

Most caps fans balk at moving alzner or carlson unless you are talking a pronger trade.
Id be all over that trade.

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