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Luongo to Flyers?

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Old
05-17-2009, 03:05 AM
  #151
phlocky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnHodgson View Post
From a Vancouver's POV, the only players we'd be interested are:

Carter
Richards
JVR
Giroux

Even for one year of Luongo, you will have to overpay... unless you want to live with an average goaltender. As Canuck fans we'd know how the mediocre goaltending worked out... (WCE)
And exactly what has having the best goaolie in the game right now done for you in the playoffs??? EXACTLY NOTHING!!! In fact Martin Biron has had more success in the playoffs than Luongo. Kee talking about "severley overpaying" all you want and you'll keep either missing the playoffs or getting knowcked out early again.

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05-17-2009, 03:11 AM
  #152
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Then consider our discussions over.
Thank god.

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Old
05-17-2009, 03:25 AM
  #153
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I don't see this deal ever happening, at least not for the rumored package. JVR is a good asset but I don't see Vancouver taking Lupul and Briere. No way.

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05-17-2009, 03:32 AM
  #154
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Go back and read my post where i discribed the EXACT series of events that MUST happen for Luongo to be traded from Vanc and he added events that MUST happen from a Philly standpoint for him to ebd up in Philly. I honestly think that's the most realistic situation here. Luongo isn't going anywhere until the trade deadline if ever. To argue back and forth about what you demand in return vs what someone else is willing to offer is pointless, it's just not going to happe so theres really no way to tell who would be right and it's even MORE pointless to even argue about it.

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Old
05-17-2009, 04:17 AM
  #155
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No thanks to lupul and briere.

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Old
05-17-2009, 04:21 AM
  #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twenty2
Then consider our discussions over.
Bye.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
And exactly what has having the best goaolie in the game right now done for you in the playoffs??? EXACTLY NOTHING!!! In fact Martin Biron has had more success in the playoffs than Luongo. Kee talking about "severley overpaying" all you want and you'll keep either missing the playoffs or getting knowcked out early again.
Hockey is a team game, however, and Luongo can't take this team to the WCF himself. Luongo lay a giant turd in game six against Chicago but one game is not an indication of his ability overall. Every other professional game he's played for the Canucks, he's stepped up when it's mattered. Great, Biron has more wins than Luongo. Then why even bother trying to acquire a better goalie, just re-sign Biron and be done with it?

Personally speaking, I lived through the years of awful goaltending with awesome offence (the WCE days), and I would take this Luongo-led team 100/100 times over those Canucks teams because there's at least a chance of going beyond the second-round. With Cloutier/Auld/whoever, it was always a matter of WHEN we'd lose, with Luongo it's a matter of IF we'll lose.

There is absolutely no incentive for the Canucks to deal Luongo for anything less than an "overpayment". Seriously, what is the incentive for us, how do we improve with Briere+JVR? We don't, we become a worse team automatically IMO. I absolutely keep Luongo for the next year unless an offer comes that's good value and the above is not one of them. I'm sure the Canucks would rather have a year of him and make the playoffs with a chance for more than lose him in a trade for assets that add absolutely nothing to the team.

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Old
05-17-2009, 09:39 AM
  #157
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Originally Posted by CloutierForVezina View Post
The main difference I see between the two clubs is with their offense in general. Although it would undoubtedly hurt the flyers to lose Carter, it would be dealing from a position of strength to help a position of weakness. Even without Carter their top 6 would be something like:
Hartnell - Richards - Gagne
Lupul - Giroux - Briere

Unless if I'm mistaken on how the flyers offense is setup (I could be, correct me if the lines look way off, I know knuble is probably leaving and he used to be top 6) and Giroux isn't quite ready to take on top 6 minutes and the responsibility that goes with it, it doesn't exactly leave you in the poor house, you'd still have a formidable top 6 to be envied by many clubs.

Edmonton on the other hand is extremely hurting for top 6 guys. The only legitamate top 6'rs I'd give them would be Hemsky, Gagner and Horcoff, with Penner and Cogliano fringe top 6 players. Renney (Potential new head coach) has talked about what he would do with our lineup and basically said that Horcoff would be demoted to basically centering the checking 3rd line. Dustin Penner has been a miserable failure so far, O'Sullivan hasn't proven he can produce on the oilers and I sincerely doubt Kotalik will be resigned. Let's go off the assumption Kotalik is resigned and Gagner is traded, what do the oilers top 6 look like?
Hemsky - Horcoff - O'Sullivan
Kotalik - Cogliano - Penner

Not really a lineup I'd be comfortable making a stab at lord stanley's cup with, even with Luongo backstopping them.

Now, on the other hand, the defensive corps is the major strength of the oilers and a position I can see them dealing from to aid their goaltending, as well as needing to shed the cap hit of one of their big blue liners. Lubo has the skill needed to be an elite offensive defenceman, in the same ballpark as carter. Maybe not quite the same level, but 67 points as a D-man is nothing to be scoffed at.
You're extremely reasonable. You made the other point I wanted to and forgot, which is that any team that trades for Luongo has to have a contender after moving the significant assets it would require to acquire him. The problem with the Carter thought is that yes, you deal from a position of strength to sure up your weaknesses. However, you don't do so by trading the 2nd leading goal scorer in the NHL at 24. Yes, it probably means you get a lesser goalie than Luongo, but those types of players are not traded in the modern NHL. It doesn't happen. Carter, Giroux, and Richards aren't in play for anyone any team would consider moving. If Shea Weber or Brent Seabrook demands a trade tomorrow, those guys come into play. They won't, so they're not. You're perfectly illustrating the reason they're willing to move a Lupul. That doesn't mean they're willing to take it to the extreme and illogical end of moving a Carter. There's no deal with Philly to be made because they won't move Carter, they won't move Richards, and they won't move Giroux. They'll find their goalie elsewhere -- think something like Biron/Harding/Emery or maybe even one of the Montreal goalies. There isn't a Van-Philly deal that makes sense for both teams.

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Originally Posted by Red View Post
There is absolutely no incentive for the Canucks to deal Luongo for anything less than an "overpayment". Seriously, what is the incentive for us, how do we improve with Briere+JVR? We don't, we become a worse team automatically IMO. I absolutely keep Luongo for the next year unless an offer comes that's good value and the above is not one of them. I'm sure the Canucks would rather have a year of him and make the playoffs with a chance for more than lose him in a trade for assets that add absolutely nothing to the team.
This exactly. Vancouver rides out Luongo's contract and tries to contend this year.

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Old
05-17-2009, 10:32 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by JojoTheWhale View Post
This exactly. Vancouver rides out Luongo's contract and tries to contend this year.
Or they could just re-sign him to an extension...

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Old
05-17-2009, 11:51 AM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Red View Post
Bye.



Hockey is a team game, however, and Luongo can't take this team to the WCF himself. Luongo lay a giant turd in game six against Chicago but one game is not an indication of his ability overall. Every other professional game he's played for the Canucks, he's stepped up when it's mattered. Great, Biron has more wins than Luongo. Then why even bother trying to acquire a better goalie, just re-sign Biron and be done with it?

Personally speaking, I lived through the years of awful goaltending with awesome offence (the WCE days), and I would take this Luongo-led team 100/100 times over those Canucks teams because there's at least a chance of going beyond the second-round. With Cloutier/Auld/whoever, it was always a matter of WHEN we'd lose, with Luongo it's a matter of IF we'll lose.

There is absolutely no incentive for the Canucks to deal Luongo for anything less than an "overpayment". Seriously, what is the incentive for us, how do we improve with Briere+JVR? We don't, we become a worse team automatically IMO. I absolutely keep Luongo for the next year unless an offer comes that's good value and the above is not one of them. I'm sure the Canucks would rather have a year of him and make the playoffs with a chance for more than lose him in a trade for assets that add absolutely nothing to the team.
In regards to Biron I think the Flyers would re-sign him but he's reportedly asking for too much money and too many years. It appears he is looking to cash in the way Huet did last year. Biron is not an elite goalie and sure I'd rather have Luongo if all things were equal, but I wouldn't mind re-signing Biron because the Flyers have been in the top 10 in the league in save percentage. Biron gets too much of the blame and I'm not even a huge Biron fan.

As for Luongo for Briere + JVR. I don't blame any Canucks fans for not wanting Briere's contract, but to act like they add nothing to your team is a bit asburd. Of course you'd be taking a huge step back in the goalie department, but you'd be adding a 70-80 point center and a blue chip prospect with the potential to be a 70-80 (or better) point winger. That's not nothing and it's better than letting him walk for nothing especially if you lose the Sedins for nothing.

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Old
05-17-2009, 12:22 PM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
As for Luongo for Briere + JVR. I don't blame any Canucks fans for not wanting Briere's contract, but to act like they add nothing to your team is a bit asburd. Of course you'd be taking a huge step back in the goalie department, but you'd be adding a 70-80 point center and a blue chip prospect with the potential to be a 70-80 (or better) point winger. That's not nothing and it's better than letting him walk for nothing especially if you lose the Sedins for nothing.
I think the reason people say getting briere is essentially worth nothing is it would basically force us away from re-signing the sedins. At the same price I'd personally rather have henrik over briere because I feel he is a little more defensively responsible and has proven himself to be far more durable and consistent. Not to mention that getting henrik back means you get daniel back as well and it's crucial to have enough cap space to fit both of them comfortably.

Even if we managed to fit the sedins and briere under onder the cap, briere's contract would put us 100% for sure out of the running for bouwmeester or gaborik (And cost about the same, give or take 1mill) and would cause problems in the future when resigning edler, bieksa, raymond, kesler and mitchell when the cap is supposedly going down.





Quote:
Originally Posted by JojoTheWhale
They'll find their goalie elsewhere -- think something like Biron/Harding/Emery or maybe even one of the Montreal goalies. There isn't a Van-Philly deal that makes sense for both teams.
Yep, that pretty much sums it up. Of course, if we get to talking about a deal that hinges on luongo resigning with philly long term then we can bring players like Carter into play =)

Oh, and edmonton calls dibs on harding and gustavsson. You can have roly, harding is ours!


Last edited by CloutierForVezina: 05-17-2009 at 12:28 PM.
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Old
05-17-2009, 12:37 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by CloutierForVezina View Post
I don't really see gagner going anywhere, he's pretty much edmonton's future. I'd imagine something like Gilbert, Eberle and a 1st, I'm really not sure though. Edmonton has basically been stuck on the playoff fringe for a few years now, meaning they're never really a competitor (Except 2006 where they got every bounce except in the SCF) and they've never really been bottom feeders, which has really messed with their ability to actually rebuild with some top end talent.

Any basis for a trade would definately centre around one of their D men being moved, especially if the j-bo to edmonton (His home town) rumours are true. Either gilbert or vishnovsky are the most likely, I don't see them parting ways with sourray.
IMO there's ZERO chance that Luongo gets traded to Edmonton... it's more likely that the Canucks just lose him to FA, than them trading him to Edmonton. It wouldn't even get to the point where Edmonton is asked to submit an offer here.

First of all, Luongo is not likely to waive his NTC to go to Edmonton.... we all know that the city isn't high on the list for many players to go to, and they're not exactly Cup contender material at this point... so why does Luongo ask for a trade from Vancouver (which is the only way he gets traded really), only to consider waiving him NTC to go there?

Secondly, being division rivals, we haven't seen a trade between these teams in over 15 years (unless you're counting minor leaguers)... and the last actual NHL trade that happened between these two clubs, IIRC, was Berenek/Oksuita - hardly near the Luongo level of impact.

Thirdly, even if they ignore all that, we already know that Gillis and Lowe don't have a very good relationship to begin with... Lowe wasn't very kind about Gillis being a GM and let it know publicly ... Tambellini's relationship isn't any better - as he had a lot of harsh words for Gillis after he left Vancouver as well.... there isn't much of a relationship there for a trade, especially at this level, to ever happen...

basically, if Luongo gets dealt, I'd be willing to bet big money that it will be with an Eastern conference team (as usually happens with players of this caliber)... but even if he goes to the West, there's no way that he's going to a division rival. If there's any chance that Luongo extends his contract in Edmonton, there's just no way that Gillis takes that chance.... but like I said, he's not likely to even pick up the phone if Tambellini/Lowe make that call.

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Old
05-17-2009, 12:55 PM
  #162
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I think the reason people say getting briere is essentially worth nothing is it would basically force us away from re-signing the sedins. At the same price I'd personally rather have henrik over briere because I feel he is a little more defensively responsible and has proven himself to be far more durable and consistent. Not to mention that getting henrik back means you get daniel back as well and it's crucial to have enough cap space to fit both of them comfortably.

Even if we managed to fit the sedins and briere under onder the cap, briere's contract would put us 100% for sure out of the running for bouwmeester or gaborik (And cost about the same, give or take 1mill) and would cause problems in the future when resigning edler, bieksa, raymond, kesler and mitchell when the cap is supposedly going down.

I completely understand those reasons for not wanting Briere, but that's a bit different than saying he and JVR add absolutely nothing to the team. That's all I'm saying.

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05-17-2009, 01:36 PM
  #163
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I honestly don't think that Luongo will be dealt.

However, based on the purpose of this thread

Luongo (signed)
Edler

for

Carter
Carle
1st, 2nd.

I can, maybe, live with that.

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05-17-2009, 02:10 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by 1025 View Post
I honestly don't think that Luongo will be dealt.

However, based on the purpose of this thread

Luongo (signed)
Edler

for

Carter
Carle
1st, 2nd.

I can, maybe, live with that.
I can't from Vancouver's perspective.

Philadephia gets the best player in the deal(re-signed longterm) and the best contract in the deal in Edler.

Carter has a good contract for the next 2 years but he'll command HUGE money on his next deal.

Matt Carle has no value at his contract.

Late 1st round picks are a coin flip to ever play in the NHL.

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05-17-2009, 02:12 PM
  #165
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I completely understand those reasons for not wanting Briere, but that's a bit different than saying he and JVR add absolutely nothing to the team. That's all I'm saying.
Briere is a talented player, but his contract is really going to murder us come 2010 when we need to re-up certain players.

If he was cheaper to afford, I wouldn't mind taking his salary back at all.

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05-17-2009, 02:18 PM
  #166
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Briere is a talented player, but his contract is really going to murder us come 2010 when we need to re-up certain players.

If he was cheaper to afford, I wouldn't mind taking his salary back at all.
Exactly.

Briere's a great player, but his contract would not allow us to re-sign the Sedins or Luongo. He would be a pretty expensive second line centre. Not to mention he's almost 32, which is pretty old, but his contract is too long and big. If his contract was 4 M cap hit at 3/4 years I'd consider it, but otherwise no.

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Old
05-17-2009, 05:03 PM
  #167
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I completely understand those reasons for not wanting Briere, but that's a bit different than saying he and JVR add absolutely nothing to the team. That's all I'm saying.
When I said they add absolutely nothing to the team, I mean it in the sense that Henrik Sedin is right now a better center than Briere and acquiring Briere is IMO a downgrade both in terms of contract, play, and because of injuries. The Canucks have ZERO need for a small, injury-prone 32 year old center with a huge 6.5m contract until he's 37 years old. For the Canucks, his contract is beyond atrocious and is negative value overall, and as someone says puts us out of the running for a guy like Gaborik or JBo, both of whom I'd rather have over Briere. I really doubt JVR would put up more than 35-45pts in his first few years in the league, he needs some time. His potential is awesome and he's a way, way better part of the deal than Briere but the Canucks aren't rebuilding and straight up, this deal makes us a worse team for the next 2-5 years, especially with the cap possibly coming down and Briere's contract tying our hands in re-upping other guys or acquiring UFAs to fill team needs. That's what I meant when I said they add nothing to the team.

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05-17-2009, 05:12 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
I can't from Vancouver's perspective.

Philadephia gets the best player in the deal(re-signed longterm) and the best contract in the deal in Edler.

Carter has a good contract for the next 2 years but he'll command HUGE money on his next deal.

Matt Carle has no value at his contract.

Late 1st round picks are a coin flip to ever play in the NHL.
I was making the deal from the situation where Luongo has asked to be dealt, which has yet been proven true.

Obviously, if Luongo doesn't ask for at trade, you don't trade him.

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05-17-2009, 05:18 PM
  #169
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! In fact Martin Biron has had more success in the playoffs than Luongo.
Lets explore that statment since your so cocky as to bring it up.

The past 3 seasons, a good cross section because both goalies never appeared in the playoffs previous to that.

Biron 11 wins, 12 losses, .908 spct and 2.87 average

Luongo 11 wins, 11 losses, .930 scpt and 2.09 average

Both won 2 series.

Now when you factor in that Philly is supposedly a contender and Vancouver was picked to not make the playoffs this season one would assume Philly has a stronger lineup of skaters?

Im not sure where you get off saying Biron has had more success, it appears they are equal with Luongo having better stats which may indicate that he was a more prominent player for his team during the playoffs.

Time for you to get your facts strait before you beak off anymore.

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05-17-2009, 05:20 PM
  #170
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And exactly what has having the best goaolie in the game right now done for you in the playoffs??? EXACTLY NOTHING!!! In fact Martin Biron has had more success in the playoffs than Luongo. Kee talking about "severley overpaying" all you want and you'll keep either missing the playoffs or getting knowcked out early again.
Last check, we made it farther than you this season no?

Trade Lupul, put Luongo infront of the Flyers and you got a cup contending team. Right now, the team infront of Luongo is nowhere near a cup contending team, it's a fringe playoff team, especially if we don't re-sign the Sedins.

Don't tell me you think Biron is better than Luongo because he has more playoff success...

Biron's career playoff numbers - 2.87 GAA
.908 Save percentage

Luongo's career playoff numbers - 2.03 GAA
.930 Save percentage

That's a HUGE difference.

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05-17-2009, 06:01 PM
  #171
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Last check, we made it farther than you this season no?

Trade Lupul, put Luongo infront of the Flyers and you got a cup contending team. Right now, the team infront of Luongo is nowhere near a cup contending team, it's a fringe playoff team, especially if we don't re-sign the Sedins.

Don't tell me you think Biron is better than Luongo because he has more playoff success...

Biron's career playoff numbers - 2.87 GAA
.908 Save percentage

Luongo's career playoff numbers - 2.03 GAA
.930 Save percentage

That's a HUGE difference.
You have to understand what your up against, in another thread today he came up with this gem:

"You don't EVEN want to go talking about playoff performance because Brad Richards cant hold Brieres jock strap in that catagory"

Of course Richards Conn Smythe Trophy was just a figmant of our imaginations.

There are a couple of Philly fans floating around mothing off the past couple of weeks, dont let them destroy the good reputation of most Philly fans on these boards.

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05-17-2009, 06:32 PM
  #172
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I can understand Flyers fan not wanting to move Richards/Carter.

But if Luongo is dealt I can see around 5 possible deals for him

To Philly for Carter + JVR
or
To Philly for Giroux, JVR, Sbisa, (and possibly pick(s))
or
To Montreal for Price, Subban, and pick/prospect
or
To Tampa for Smith, #2 overall, and Wishart.
or
To Ottawa for Leclaire, Volchenkov, and Ottawa's 1st in 09.

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05-17-2009, 06:50 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by CM- View Post
I can understand Flyers fan not wanting to move Richards/Carter.

But if Luongo is dealt I can see around 5 possible deals for him

To Philly for Carter + JVR
or
To Philly for Giroux, JVR, Sbisa, (and possibly pick(s))
or
To Montreal for Price, Subban, and pick/prospect
or
To Tampa for Smith, #2 overall, and Wishart.
or
To Ottawa for Leclaire, Volchenkov, and Ottawa's 1st in 09.

You guys are all crazy. Luongo will NEVER return a player like Carter without him being resigned and if he's resigned then the Nucks have no reason to deal him.

When has Luongo played in a Conference finals??? That's right NEVER, Biron HAS PLAYED IN A CONFERENCE FINALS. There, is that so hard to understand???


In case you guys up in Vanc don't know how to go back a page or 2 and reread what I posted befroe, I'll summerize here:

Luongo will only be dealt if Vanc can't resign him and they are out of the playoff hunt before the trade deadline. The only way the Flyers inquire about obtaining him is if they are unhappy with whomever they pick up before this season begins AND they are in the playoff/division lead hunt. If all those things happen then the Flyer MAT try and aquire Luongo, however don't expect the Flyers to part with any of the pieces currently on their team that are key to their playoff success.

How hard is it for you guys to understand this??? If Luongo was signed long term and you guys HAD to trade him they yeah, I'd have not problem at all trading Carter + for him, but I wouldn't trade you one of Carter, JVR or Sbisa for Luongo straight up right now. The only ones I'd trade for him without him being extended right now is Briere, Lupul of Carle and that's it.

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Old
05-17-2009, 08:20 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
You guys are all crazy. Luongo will NEVER return a player like Carter without him being resigned and if he's resigned then the Nucks have no reason to deal him.

When has Luongo played in a Conference finals??? That's right NEVER, Biron HAS PLAYED IN A CONFERENCE FINALS. There, is that so hard to understand???


In case you guys up in Vanc don't know how to go back a page or 2 and reread what I posted befroe, I'll summerize here:

Luongo will only be dealt if Vanc can't resign him and they are out of the playoff hunt before the trade deadline. The only way the Flyers inquire about obtaining him is if they are unhappy with whomever they pick up before this season begins AND they are in the playoff/division lead hunt. If all those things happen then the Flyer MAT try and aquire Luongo, however don't expect the Flyers to part with any of the pieces currently on their team that are key to their playoff success.

How hard is it for you guys to understand this??? If Luongo was signed long term and you guys HAD to trade him they yeah, I'd have not problem at all trading Carter + for him, but I wouldn't trade you one of Carter, JVR or Sbisa for Luongo straight up right now. The only ones I'd trade for him without him being extended right now is Briere, Lupul of Carle and that's it.
I guess anybody who disagree's with you is crazy and to be put on ignore? I guess that is a great way to live in a bubble.

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05-17-2009, 08:29 PM
  #175
JohnHodgson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
You guys are all crazy. Luongo will NEVER return a player like Carter without him being resigned and if he's resigned then the Nucks have no reason to deal him.

When has Luongo played in a Conference finals??? That's right NEVER, Biron HAS PLAYED IN A CONFERENCE FINALS. There, is that so hard to understand???


In case you guys up in Vanc don't know how to go back a page or 2 and reread what I posted befroe, I'll summerize here:

Luongo will only be dealt if Vanc can't resign him and they are out of the playoff hunt before the trade deadline. The only way the Flyers inquire about obtaining him is if they are unhappy with whomever they pick up before this season begins AND they are in the playoff/division lead hunt. If all those things happen then the Flyer MAT try and aquire Luongo, however don't expect the Flyers to part with any of the pieces currently on their team that are key to their playoff success.

How hard is it for you guys to understand this??? If Luongo was signed long term and you guys HAD to trade him they yeah, I'd have not problem at all trading Carter + for him, but I wouldn't trade you one of Carter, JVR or Sbisa for Luongo straight up right now. The only ones I'd trade for him without him being extended right now is Briere, Lupul of Carle and that's it.
Hahah.


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