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Old
05-16-2009, 12:44 PM
  #26
phlocky
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Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
Except when people compare Biron to Hiller, they are comparing two players who have the same job, stopping the puck. When you compare Avery to Giroux, you are comparing two players who have totally different roles on their respective teams. Nice try though.


I like Hiller, but the list of goalies who had "breakout" seasons, only to fall back to earth, is much longer than those who went on to have stellar careers. Which tends to be the reason that goalies never bring the kind of return in trade that posters on HF suspect that they should.

Again, can you show me when a goalie with such inexperience, or any goalie at all for that matter, has ever returned a player the calibre of Gagne in a trade? Good luck...
ROFL, that is exactly right. I love how everyone here expects their goalie prospect to be the next Patrick Roy and to return a kings ransome. It just doesn't happen but keep dreaming fellas.

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Old
05-16-2009, 12:44 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by ELab2 View Post
Pretty damn close from a Flyers perspective. I don't think that Anaheim can take that much cap though.
They'd probably have to let Beauchemin walk, and get Marchant and the Niedermayers to take a paycut. If that happens, there should be plenty left over, no?

But as pointed out, the goalie market has always been a bit of a buyer's market, at least for non-superstar types. Look at Bryzgalov ... he SHOULD have yielded a good return, but no one seemed willing to pony up.

So he ends up on waivers, and a non-playoff team grabs him. If you're a playoff team that needed goaltending, IMO it was foolish not to pony up SOMETHING of value for Bryz, but I think the mentality is, "Maybe I can get a bargain-bin guy for picks/role players that can resurrect his career, and not weaken my lineup in any way." I'm not big on that line of thinking, where you cheap out on the most crucial position on the ice, but then I'm not a GM.

Then again, to be a much better option than Hiller at this point, you'd be talking about proven star goalies ... not many of those ever come up for trade, and if I were shopping one it'd take more than just Gagne to get my attention.

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05-16-2009, 12:49 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by mmbt View Post
They'd probably have to let Beauchemin walk, and get Marchant and the Niedermayers to take a paycut. If that happens, there should be plenty left over, no?

But as pointed out, the goalie market has always been a bit of a buyer's market, at least for non-superstar types. Look at Bryzgalov ... he SHOULD have yielded a good return, but no one seemed willing to pony up.

So he ends up on waivers, and a non-playoff team grabs him. If you're a playoff team that needed goaltending, IMO it was foolish not to pony up SOMETHING of value for Bryz, but I think the mentality is, "Maybe I can get a bargain-bin guy for picks/role players that can resurrect his career, and not weaken my lineup in any way." I'm not big on that line of thinking, where you cheap out on the most crucial position on the ice, but then I'm not a GM.

Then again, to be a much better option than Hiller at this point, you'd be talking about proven star goalies ... not many of those ever come up for trade, and if I were shopping one it'd take more than just Gagne to get my attention.
??? SAY WHAT??? Are you saying that you'd want MORE than Gagne for Hiller???

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05-16-2009, 12:53 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
??? SAY WHAT??? Are you saying that you'd want MORE than Gagne for Hiller???
Uh no, that's not what I said. Reading comprehension apparently isn't what it used to be.

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05-16-2009, 01:05 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Honestly, Hiller isn't ANY better than Biron. Hillers technique is average at best and he could EASILY e the next Jim Cary. Sorry, but Gagne culd return us a MUCH MUCH better and established goalie that Hiller.

Hiller would return a 2nd and a prospect/decent roster player, not a 1st line scoring winger. Remember, just a few years ago Gagne was what Fla wanted for Luongo and that's well before Gagne ever reached 40 goals a season. Gagne has only improved his worth and now you think he's only worth Hiller straight up???? Gagne for Hiller and your 09 1st, that's about fair.
So then what? Don't take a chance. What's the plan then? Resign Biron to a 3 year deal for 12 million? Start Martin Houle?

There's more to it than just Gagne as a player. The Flyers have very little cap room to work with both now and in the future with some key players that are going to get raises. Eventually somebody is going to have to be sacrificed.

Say that Anaheim needs to add something. That's fine. All I'm saying is that the base of the deal makes sense for both teams.

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Old
05-16-2009, 01:12 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
??? SAY WHAT??? Are you saying that you'd want MORE than Gagne for Hiller???
No, he's saying that the "weak goalie market" has pertained to mediocre goalies. You can maintain the thought of "we can't trade anything of significant value because goalies have never gotten anything in the past" and then you can continue to trade middle round picks and whatever else for the Martin Biron's of the world.

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Old
05-16-2009, 01:32 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by hlundqvist30 View Post
No, he's saying that the "weak goalie market" has pertained to mediocre goalies. You can maintain the thought of "we can't trade anything of significant value because goalies have never gotten anything in the past" and then you can continue to trade middle round picks and whatever else for the Martin Biron's of the world.
Funny you speak of middle round picks, consider the goaltender you chose as your screen name was picked in the 7th round. And since when are 2nd rounders considered "middle round picks", anyway?

The "weak goalie market" you speak of doesn't just pertain to "mediocre goaltenders", which is why you haven't been able to show a previous trade for ANY goalie who has brought back a player like Gagne. I mean, you can spin it any way you want, but that's a fact. Roy, Luongo, Vokoun and on and on. It just doesn't happen, and its not likely to happen here, unless the Ducks add to the package.

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Old
05-16-2009, 01:32 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by hlundqvist30 View Post
So then what? Don't take a chance. What's the plan then? Resign Biron to a 3 year deal for 12 million? Start Martin Houle?

There's more to it than just Gagne as a player. The Flyers have very little cap room to work with both now and in the future with some key players that are going to get raises. Eventually somebody is going to have to be sacrificed.

Say that Anaheim needs to add something. That's fine. All I'm saying is that the base of the deal makes sense for both teams.
O love it when people tell us we are in cap hell and have very little cap space to work with. I'll give you our roster right now for heading into next season. If you want I can list our moves for the next 2 off-seasons too if you like. Yes we will have to make some choices but we don't have to accept less than market value now for a star player like Gagne. Here you go:


C - Briere (6.5m), Richard (5.75m), Carter (5.0m)
Giroux (0.822m) and Powe (0.52m) can both be sent down to the minors at any time if we want.

LW - Gagne (5.25m), Cote (0.55m), Carcillo (0.894m)
RW - Hartnell (4.2m), Lupul (4.25m), Asham (0.625m)

D - Timonen (6.333m), Carle (3.438m), Jones (2.75m), Coburn (1.3m), Parent (0.855m)

Even if we include Giroux and Powe into our numbers we have 11 forwards and 5 dmen signed for next season with a combined cap hit of roughly 49 mil. We need 1 forward, 1 dman, and 2 goalies with the remaining 7.7 mil. Nodl has been playing with us for parts of the season and is a cheap 3rd/4th line option at 0.85 mil. Sbisa will most likely be on the team full time for next year (he played the first half of the season with us this year and was returned because of cap reasons and a loggjam at defense) at a cost of just 0.875 mil. That will leave us about 6.25 mil for a starting goalie, a backup goalie, and a bit of cap space for injury call-ups. All of that WITHOUT MOVING A SINGLE "OVER PAID" PLAYER OFF THE CURRENT ROSTER!!!!

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Old
05-16-2009, 01:34 PM
  #34
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Did you see that, we can keep our current list ofr forwards and dmen and STILL have over 6 mil to sign just 2 goalies. If we send out a little salary then we could even add Luongo and his enormous salary.

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05-16-2009, 01:35 PM
  #35
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Add this talk by posters here at HF stating that the Flyers are in cap hell and must shed salary is a bunch of bologna

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Old
05-16-2009, 01:40 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by hlundqvist30 View Post
No, he's saying that the "weak goalie market" has pertained to mediocre goalies. You can maintain the thought of "we can't trade anything of significant value because goalies have never gotten anything in the past" and then you can continue to trade middle round picks and whatever else for the Martin Biron's of the world.


Actually, after re-reading it he was talking about ELITE goalies being move and that it would take far more than Gagne to land one. I think that's debatable but hey, whatever.

Gagne for the next Jim Cary??? No thank you. Hiller MIGHT work out, but he's far from having proven anything to warrent a return of a Simon Gagne in any trade.

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Old
05-16-2009, 01:45 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
We need 1 forward, 1 top pairing dman, a no.1 goalie from free agency and a backup with the remaining 7.7 mil.

All of that WITHOUT MOVING A SINGLE "OVER PAID" PLAYER OFF THE CURRENT ROSTER!!!!
Good luck with that.

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05-16-2009, 01:54 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
Funny you speak of middle round picks, consider the goaltender you chose as your screen name was picked in the 7th round. And since when are 2nd rounders considered "middle round picks", anyway?

The "weak goalie market" you speak of doesn't just pertain to "mediocre goaltenders", which is why you haven't been able to show a previous trade for ANY goalie who has brought back a player like Gagne. I mean, you can spin it any way you want, but that's a fact. Roy, Luongo, Vokoun and on and on. It just doesn't happen, and its not likely to happen here, unless the Ducks add to the package.
Roy or Luongo caliber goalies don't become available often, and typically under unique circumstances. That could be a long wait until the next one. Major tiff with the organization and/or impending UFA status and stuck negotiations ... it'll happen again with SOME elite goalie in his prime somewhere down the road, but those two events happened 10 years apart. Most of the other name goalies that have been moved over the years had issues (declining play, salaries, etc.).

Developing a goalie through the draft typically takes several years, and the hit rate is low. If a team doesn't seem to have much of an eye for developing goalies ... well, there's a reason some teams haven't had a star goalie in decades.

Still, if you're patient enough, those are certainly legitimate low-cost options.

The less patient low-cost option would be trading a pick for someone's reject ... but for every 2nd rounder that nabs a Giguere or Kipper, there's a lot more 2nd-5th round picks that land a Cechmanek or Lalime or something worse, where the guy ends up failing in the playoffs (which is the goal here, correct me if I'm wrong).

If you step up a bit you can indeed land a Vokoun type for picks as a surplus goalie ... but again the availability of that caliber of goalie is less frequent, and it took multiple picks (including one in the top 10). Not sure there's anything like that on tap this offseason unless Giguere is willing to move.

Of course, I'm not really disagreeing with you, as I'm almost certain that if it were Hiller for Gagne there'd have to be a bit more from the Ducks' side of things, and not just chump change.

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Old
05-16-2009, 02:06 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by hlundqvist30 View Post
So then what? Don't take a chance. What's the plan then? Resign Biron to a 3 year deal for 12 million? Start Martin Houle?

There's more to it than just Gagne as a player. The Flyers have very little cap room to work with both now and in the future with some key players that are going to get raises. Eventually somebody is going to have to be sacrificed.

Say that Anaheim needs to add something. That's fine. All I'm saying is that the base of the deal makes sense for both teams.
thats sort of whats part of it. gagne is on the list of guys wed wanna protect from a cap crunch. he brings alot to the team both offensively and defensively. hes one of few veterans on a young team and hes also a lifetime flyer. in a general sense his contracts about fair but for what he brings to the flyers its a steal.

no to mention one of the key rationalisations for the briere signing was that we needed a setup man for gagne. hes proven he can pot 30 by himself but can aproach 50 with a good setup guy. shedding gagne just makes briere who has a bigger contract at a deeper position even more irrelevant. beyond that past center our depth is at right wing not left which is what gagne plays.

so yes goaltending to philly for scoring depth is a good premis for a trade gagne isnt someone who would come up unless it was for an outstanding return. guys who could be available are briere and possibly lupul and again youd have to add with hiller or possibly and this would make more sense capwise gagne and jvr for giguere and bobby ryan

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Old
05-16-2009, 02:09 PM
  #40
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Giguere+ for Briere? Philly gets their goalie and lose Briere's contract. Anaheim gets an upgrade over Ebbett to centre Selanne's line (similar to the MacDonald/Selanne line of old).

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05-16-2009, 02:11 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Actually, after re-reading it he was talking about ELITE goalies being move and that it would take far more than Gagne to land one. I think that's debatable but hey, whatever.
Really? I don't think it is. Generally unless there's some non-performance related issue, elite goalies in their prime don't get traded. Usually what you see is guys who have had playoff issues, or a contract issue, or an age issue, or less proven, etc.. There's almost always some reason a name goalie gets traded.

For instance, maybe a guy like Nabokov is available for cheap, and he's sort of a proven quality netminder ... but then, he clearly got outplayed by Hiller in the playoffs, he costs a lot more salary wise, he's not been awful but also never really taken it to that next level, and he's significantly older.

The "sure thing" goalies just don't come up very often. At some point, you're probably either going to have to roll the dice on someone less proven, or live with some other issue (age, salary, choker label, etc) ... or be really really patient.

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05-16-2009, 02:19 PM
  #42
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double post, sorry

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Old
05-16-2009, 02:25 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Talentless Practise View Post
Good luck with that.
ROFL, nice try but you fail. The ONLY problem with the Flyers top 3 is that wth the exception of Timonen they are all very very young.

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05-16-2009, 02:30 PM
  #44
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ROFL, nice try but you fail. The ONLY problem with the Flyers top 3 is that wth the exception of Timonen they are all very very young.
I.e not good enough. Not with the offensive firepower you guys are going to face in the foreseeable future.

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05-16-2009, 02:36 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Talentless Practise View Post
I.e not good enough. Not with the offensive firepower you guys are going to face in the foreseeable future.
Really? I'm completely happy with Parent and Coburn.

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05-16-2009, 02:45 PM
  #46
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Really? I'm completely happy with Parent and Coburn.
That's fine. I just think that teams looking to compete have to compare themselves to the class of the league and see where they lack. Our offensive depth is pitiful compared to Detroit. Parent and Coburn are #5 and #6 in Detroit with Parent being questionable over Ericsson.

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05-16-2009, 02:48 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Talentless Practise View Post
I.e not good enough. Not with the offensive firepower you guys are going to face in the foreseeable future.
:


I guess it's pointless even discussing this with you if you fail to understand the basic premiss that young dmen need time to fully develop. Just because they aren't top notch right now doesn't mean you throw them away, as you are implying. It means you sit on them an let them develop.

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05-16-2009, 02:49 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Talentless Practise View Post
That's fine. I just think that teams looking to compete have to compare themselves to the class of the league and see where they lack. Our offensive depth is pitiful compared to Detroit. Parent and Coburn are #5 and #6 in Detroit with Parent being questionable over Ericsson.


ROFL

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Old
05-16-2009, 02:54 PM
  #49
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:


I guess it's pointless even discussing this with you if you fail to understand the basic premiss that young dmen need time to fully develop. Just because they aren't top notch right now doesn't mean you throw them away, as you are implying. It means you sit on them an let them develop.
Ah, yes, the future. The future where all players develop into great players and where they are still cheap.

There is no 1st pairing stud potential in Coburn, Parent or Sbisa.

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Old
05-16-2009, 03:00 PM
  #50
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hiller for giroux.

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