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Old
05-17-2009, 02:55 AM
  #126
phlocky
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The Flyers could get Lehtonen straight up for Gagne and Lehtonen >>>>> Hiller, who hasn't proven anyhting more than his was good FOR ONE SINGLE SEASON!!! If the flyers were unwilling to give up Gagne for Luongo (yes, it was stated by Fla that there were in contact with Philly regarding a deal for Luongo and they wanted Gagne but Philly saidno) then why would we trade him now for a scrub like Hiller????

you are trying to elevate Hiller to this near god like goalie status and it simply isn't working. You might actually believe this crap you are slinging but NOBODY else in this world is. the FACT is that one season doesn prove that Hillr has established himself as worth a player like Gagne in trade. YOU will be sorely hurt if/when he is dealt because it's going to be far far less than what you are asking for and then you will be looking like the fool. Have fun in fantasy land though. I'm sure the sun always shines there.

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05-17-2009, 03:02 AM
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
I wouldn't move him myself. I don't think it is currently possible to improve the team as a whole over the next two years by moving him, so I wouldn't do it. Outside of some miracle trade where Jiggy and Briere both agree and get traded straight up, these teams aren't good trading partners IMO. I was just trying to facilitate the search for some middle ground between those two sides.

Am I the only person here who thinks Hiller on a team with an average defense would look significantly more average? I honestly think a Lupul for Harding trade (straight up) offers the Flyers a goaltender of very similar capability (though I'll concede less proven) for much less coming from the Flyers. Harding probably represents more of a gamble, but I like their chances with him.

No, you aren't and I think that's the point. Hiller, ROFL, worth Gagne, lol, that's a good one.

From what I've seen Hiller has questionable technique at best. He's very unorthodox and goalies like him tend more to be flashes in the pan than they do perenial winners in net. Honestly, I think Hiller is a joke and will be out of the league within 5 years but that's just me. I wouldn't even trade Lupul or Nodl straight up for him. The ONLY player on Philly that I'd trade for Hiller would be Briere and only then because it would clear up some cap space for us and I'd DEMAND a 2nd from Ana in return for Briere. Even then Ana is getting a bargin but hey, I'll take what I can get for Briere.

Plain and simply you are an absolute JOKE if you think Hiller can get you Gagne. You would have to be a very retarded person if you honestly felt this was fair value. Nobody would EVER trade Gagne for Hiller if they were in Philly's shoes. NOBODY!!! Even a drunken retard as a joke wouldn't accept such a deal.


Last edited by phlocky: 05-17-2009 at 03:10 AM.
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Old
05-17-2009, 03:10 AM
  #128
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Would some of these clowns please relax? We are not trying to sell your mothers into a harem in Libya. We are posting on a frigging messageboard trying to figure out if we could come up with something reasonable for a trade. Disagree about our thoughts, fine, your prerogative. Don't just be a shouting *******, come up with reasonable arguments to disprove what's been said.

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05-17-2009, 03:16 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Talentless Practise View Post
Would some of these clowns please relax? We are not trying to sell your mothers into a harem in Libya. We are posting on a frigging messageboard trying to figure out if we could come up with a something reasonable for a trade. Disagree about our thoughts, fine, your prerogative. Don't just be a shouting *******, come up with reasonable arguments to disprove what's been said.
He did.

Hiller plays behind a solid defense, and has only had one good year. He's very solid, but of course the Flyers would feel safer behind players like Harding, Lehtonen, and Halak who could likely be had for far cheaper.

You guys are giving us absolutely NO incentive to trade Gagne to Anaheim. We said a 1st would help even it out, but then some of you claimed that it was too much.

In no world does a deal like this work without substantial pieces going back to Philadelphia.

The fact of the matter is Hiller isn't incredible by any stretch of the imagination, and even then he would likely get torn apart by some of the talent forward cores in the east especially without the defensive backing of players like Pronger and Neids.

Why take a risk like that with a proven 40 goal scorer as bait?

You're looking at Briere for cap reasons and not Gagne. Briere's not bad of course, but he frees up more cap than Gagne and he's older. In my mind based on their play they're equal to the Flyers, but because of other factors that's about what you're looking at if you guys continue to try to lowball us.

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Old
05-17-2009, 03:18 AM
  #130
phlocky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talentless Practise View Post
Would some of these clowns please relax? We are not trying to sell your mothers into a harem in Libya. We are posting on a frigging messageboard trying to figure out if we could come up with a something reasonable for a trade. Disagree about our thoughts, fine, your prerogative. Don't just be a shouting *******, come up with reasonable arguments to disprove what's been said.
Well, by your own example of the Richards deal then you should be expecting to get Briere in return for Hiller +++. Gagne CERTAINLY doesn't compare to Brad Richards in your expample, the only player on the Flyer who exemplifies Richards would be Briere but YOU are the one who closes hs mind and dismisses everyone else. Face it, I'm right and NOBODY, f in the flyers position, would trade Gagne for Hiller and any junk you want to send our way.

This would be paramount to you trading Pronger for the bag of pucks you are offering the Flyers in return for Gagne. i mean Pronger must not be worth nearly as much as Brad Richards because Richards is signed to a longer contract and he's younger than Pronger right??? By your own logic pronger shoud only return you a 2nd line forward, a bottom pairing dman, 2 AHL quality prospects and a 6th rnd pick. How do you feel about that. You'd think the person offering you that crap was crazy wouldn't you. Well, thaat's what you are doing with asking for Gagne in return for Hiller. Gagne is worth about ten billion times more than what Hiller is worth.

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Old
05-17-2009, 03:20 AM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twenty2 View Post
For the last time, NO.

Gagne

FOR

Hiller + 1st 09 + Beauchemin's rights

And even that's a stretch from Philadelphia.
If you reference my post, you'll see it was in response to a post I quoted of practise's. So, not to be a femanine hygiene product, but I was mroe asking him for his thoughts. I am aware of your opinion on the value of Gagne.

I already said I wouldn't make that trade, I am not trying to actually deal away Gagne. I am just trying to talk some hockey with the guy. I, don't really take it personally or get annoyed when someone undervalues a Flyer from my eprspective (I am sure he thinks we undervalue Hiller). We don't have to come to terms or anything, we're just spit-balling, no need to conduct the conversation like an actual negotiation (playing hypothetical-hardball, confrontational tone etc.).

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05-17-2009, 03:24 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
How do you feel about that.
I feel my plea for reasonable arguments instead of mindless shouting didn't register properly. Judging from this thread, it seems to be the way you like to do things.

Ignored.

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05-17-2009, 03:28 AM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Well, by your own example of the Richards deal then you should be expecting to get Briere in return for Hiller +++.
Mike Smith had not shown nearly what Hiller has at the time of that trade. I am not crowning Hiller, but he has demonstrated the ability to competently start for an NHL team, and play well in big games.

Brad Richards' value was very high at the time, obviously that was hurt by the bad contract, but the guy had just had a great series and was the playoff MVP for a cup winner. Gagne has a very good contract, and just had a very good year. I like Briere, and I think any team that trades for him would be pleasantly surprised, but his value is not at an all time high if we're being honest with ourselves.

I think value wise, considering the contracts involved it looks like: Gagne > Richards >>> Briere.

Thats just my opinion, obv.

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05-17-2009, 03:52 AM
  #134
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You all do realize that Brad Richards has exactly one, count it ONE, season whee he was a PPG player and that was the year the won the cup. He's a 2nd line center who had one incredible season and he cashed in big time. I'm not trying to be a dick here, take an honest look at his body of work, it really isn't overly impressive. If you want to try and argue "intangables" and "defensive ability" keep in mind that he's only been a positive player TWICE in his entire career. He's more a liability on the ice than he is a defensive heler or offensive producer. I'm not making this stuff up people, these are his acutal statistics. You don't EVEN want to go talking about playoff performance because Brad Richards cant hold Brieres jock strap in that catagory. Honestly, all things considered, I'd much rather have Briere on my team than Brad Richards. Briere is the better player, you just have to acocunt for his defensive question marks but then again Briere isn't paid to be a Selke award canidate.

There is a thread about most over hyped "superstars", personally I put Brad Richards at the top of that list. I mean really, take out that one year and most people don't even know who Brad freaking Richards is. His body of work shows him to be nothing more than a 2nd line center on an average team. Now if you honestly think that's equal to a first line winger like a Simon Gagne then I truly feel sorry for you because you really haven't got a clue.

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05-17-2009, 04:11 AM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
You all do realize that Brad Richards has exactly one, count it ONE, season whee he was a PPG player and that was the year the won the cup.
I won't argue your assessment of his entire body of work. I will say that at the time, Brad Richards' stock was very very high. The point is that you have to consider what that player's stock was at the time of the trade. Hind sight is 20/20. So if you want to look at that trade you have to look at what Tampa Bay and Dallas THOUGHT they were trading, and not what the performances they actually ended up getting from the players after the trades were.

In regards to the perception of value (as opposed to actual value in hindsight):

Hiller> Smith
Richards > Gagne



I think it is a stupid trade to reference though. Tampa couldn't afford Richards and needed to deal him. We do not need to deal Gagne. I do agree Briere is the man come play-off time though.

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05-17-2009, 04:27 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
I won't argue your assessment of his entire body of work. I will say that at the time, Brad Richards' stock was very very high. The point is that you have to consider what that player's stock was at the time of the trade. Hind sight is 20/20. So if you want to look at that trade you have to look at what Tampa Bay and Dallas THOUGHT they were trading, and not what the performances they actually ended up getting from the players after the trades were.

In regards to the perception of value (as opposed to actual value in hindsight):

Hiller> Smith
Richards > Gagne



I think it is a stupid trade to reference though. Tampa couldn't afford Richards and needed to deal him. We do not need to deal Gagne. I do agree Briere is the man come play-off time though.
Are you saying that Brad Richards value at the time he was traded LAST SEASON was at an all time high??? After his one and only good season he had his typical "average" season the follwing year and followed that up with a rather uninspired first half of the next year before he was later trade to Dallas for less than sellar return. He certainly wasn't earning his 7+ mil contract in TB and they desperately needed to be rid of his contract. The owner was losing money and he couldn't afford ot keep all 3 of his big named players. Khabibulin proved that it was HE who carried that team and not Brad Richards as everyone thought. they had basically the same exact team the year after they won the cup with the onl real difeernce being their goalie and they struggled to even make the playoffs the year after Khabibulin left. Richards is WAY WAY over-rated and isn't close to the player that Briere is.

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05-17-2009, 04:34 AM
  #137
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I haven't read through the thread cause its almost 4 in the morning and I'm tired, but I wouldn't trade Gagne for Hiller. I'm not an expert on trade proposals or anything, but I think the Ducks would have to give up more to get Gagne considering what Luongo was traded for. Also, I don't trust Hiller yet because I've seen several Flyers goalies in only the last decade or so have great seasons for a young goalie, only to amount to nothing even close to what they looked like they would be. If Hiller had had 2 1/2 good years in the league it would be different and I would trust him more. I'm not saying he isn't going to be good, its just I'm not sure I want to give up Gagne for someone who isn't a sure thing. That said it does make sense based on the fact it addresses a need of getting a goalie, and cap relief, by trading from our strong point of scoring forwards. I could definitely see something like this happening but maybe with us giving Lupul and a prospect/pick, or the Ducks adding more for Gagne.

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05-17-2009, 04:57 AM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Are you saying that Brad Richards value at the time he was traded LAST SEASON was at an all time high??? After his one and only good season he had his typical "average" season the following year and followed that up with a rather uninspired first half of the next year before he was later trade to Dallas for less than stellar return.
One and only good season? He averaged roughly 73 points over the first 5 years of his career. He did score 91 points in 06. Then is production plummeted the following year to *gasp* 70 points! When he was traded he had 51 in 62 games. For his career he is exactly a PPG player in the play-offs, where as Briere is just under a PPG for his career. Hardly amazing value at 7mil+, but hardly sucking.

I was mistaken though, I thought he was traded a half a season, not one and a half seasons after their cup win. It definitely does make a difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Richards is WAY WAY over-rated and isn't close to the player that Briere is.


And yes, you're right, it was the sparkling goal tending of Khabibulin that won them the cup single-handedly that year. His spectacular display reduced Richards 26 point contribution to near irrelevance. You have debunked for me, the notion that it was not a team effort. Thank you.


Last edited by Giroux tha Damaja: 05-17-2009 at 05:08 AM.
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Old
05-17-2009, 05:34 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
(I am sure he thinks we undervalue Hiller).
Not necessarily undevaluing Hiller. Moreso i feel some of you might be undervaluing the profound effect on your team freeing up 6-7M in salary (Gagne + signing a guy like Biron or Fernandez) would have moving towards a more balanced team structure. You haven't had a problem attracting free agents in the past and adding a FA d-man (JayBo/Ohlund/Komisarek) with Beauchemin to go along with what would still be a cup-caliber offense (Richards, Carter, Briere, Hartnell, Lupul, Giroux etc.) would in my opinion make your team better than hanging on to Gagne and going with Biron/Fernandez.

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05-17-2009, 09:18 AM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Talentless Practise View Post
Not necessarily undevaluing Hiller. Moreso i feel some of you might be undervaluing the profound effect on your team freeing up 6-7M in salary (Gagne + signing a guy like Biron or Fernandez) would have moving towards a more balanced team structure. You haven't had a problem attracting free agents in the past and adding a FA d-man (JayBo/Ohlund/Komisarek) with Beauchemin to go along with what would still be a cup-caliber offense (Richards, Carter, Briere, Hartnell, Lupul, Giroux etc.) would in my opinion make your team better than hanging on to Gagne and going with Biron/Fernandez.
Well many feel that

Gagne - Richards - Lupul
Hartnell - Carter - Giroux

Gives us the best chance to win long-term, and it's not because Gagne is somehow superior to Briere. Briere is a PPG forward with extraordinary talent. Gagne is a sniper. They excel at two different things.

While Briere is quite probably the superior forward many Flyers fans, myself included, have a soft spot for a home-grown boy who is our last link to a time pre-lockout with players like Desjardins, LeClair, etc etc. I feel as though he's pretty important to the Flyers organization and fanbase. Couple that with the fact that he's a mil cheaper than Briere, he's far more defensively responsible on a team that needs that kind of a player, 2 years younger than Briere, and a sniper when Carter is the only other likely perennial 40+ goal scorer, it makes for a case where a lot of people want to move Briere out.

I'd still say that purely on offensive talent Briere wins. And those who don't believe he earns his contract are just dumb.

The reason he doesn't look like he earns his contract is because he's been injured one season during it, and the Flyers have many more players like Gagne, Richards, and Carter who appear to have bargain contracts.

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05-17-2009, 11:58 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
I hope that is a net total and not a gross total because I can't see Komisarek and JBo getting a combined 10.5 million. As a Flyers fan, I don't want to touch Komisarek because I have a feeling he is going to get an undeserved monster contract solely because he's a big hitter. I see Komisarek getting over 5 million. If somehow the Flyers could bring him in under 4 million, I might consider it...but I doubt it.
That's funny because I can't see him getting more than 4mil per year. And yes it was a net total. If JBo decides to sign with the Flyers I could see him signing for 6.5 per and Komi signed at 3.5. It could work and the suspected cap going down the market will drop.

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05-17-2009, 12:32 PM
  #142
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That's funny because I can't see him getting more than 4mil per year. And yes it was a net total. If JBo decides to sign with the Flyers I could see him signing for 6.5 per and Komi signed at 3.5. It could work and the suspected cap going down the market will drop.
I just think you need to consider the Jeff Finger affect. It seems average UFA defenseman get 3.5, some arguably better could easily get 4.5-5. THe only thing that could drive down value is fear of cap reduction next year.

I think JBO, will get a very high / cap hit or a long term deal (like 10 year 60 million, or 5 year 35, etc.).

One comment that seems to come up consistently with with Flyer Fans is the Briere earning his contract. I think 2 things work against him.

1 = length of the deal. Many people so those as dangerous contracts.
2 = his size makes him prone for injuries. He's undersized center. This may not be true, but perception is stronger than facts.

Obviously people target Gagne because he has a more perceived value.

But like Talent said, trading Hiller for Gagne solves your goaltending problems and you'd still have a strong core of top 6 forwards. More importantly you'd be freeing up quite a bit of cap space to go after some free agent physical d-man (which from what I read is what the team is really lacking). I'm also sure the ducks would add something to the deal, but I don't think it would be a 1st in this year's draft, or their top prospect. That could be worked out.

I guess the question is would you rather keep Gagne and field a team with Biron/Firnandez or trade Gagne and field a team with Hiller + another stud on defense.

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05-17-2009, 12:44 PM
  #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caliamad View Post
trading Hiller for Gagne solves your goaltending problems
Does it? I'm not so sure, and I think most Flyers fans aren't so sure, hence why value (such as a 1st rounder) has to come back to Philly as part of the package. We're giving up one of the better two-way wingers in the league, and getting a goalie who has never started more than 38 games in a season, and is still prone to the soft goal (see the Ducks board for more on that).

I already stated what I think the Flyers would consider trading Gagne for...

Gagne and conditional pick....for Hiller, 1st and rights to Beauchemin. This is something the Flyers might consider. On value its relatively close. I would think anything less than that and Philly will continue looking elsewhere (for better or worse).

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05-17-2009, 02:32 PM
  #144
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How about Giguere+Ebbet+Ryan Carter for Jeff Carter? Possible switch of picks as well (Anaheim picks 15th, Philly 21st)

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05-17-2009, 02:36 PM
  #145
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How about Giguere+Ebbet+Ryan Carter for Jeff Carter? Possible switch of picks as well (Anaheim picks 15th, Philly 21st)
I wouldn't do that from a Philly standpoint at all

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05-17-2009, 02:44 PM
  #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xV Carter 17 Xv View Post
I wouldn't do that from a Philly standpoint at all
I know it's a stretch but I don't see the Ducks trading one of their goalies for anything less then a center for Selanne. What if in that deal the Ducks just gave Philly the 1st? Giguere+15th overall+Ebbet+Ryan Carter for Jeff Carter? I think if the Ducks decide to do buisness with Philly, Jeff Carter has to be the one going to Anaheim.

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05-17-2009, 02:50 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by 8inblack View Post
I think if the Ducks decide to do buisness with Philly, Jeff Carter has to be the one going to Anaheim.
If you go after Carter you need to pony up a lot more than that.

You need to:
1. Give a lot more than you'd want to, not just scraps like Ebbett or Carter
2. Help Philly now and in the future, 1st this year is a must + a high level prospect
3. Make it Cap-friendly for the Flyers, Hiller insted of Giguere
4. Brace youself for abuse

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05-17-2009, 03:04 PM
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talentless Practise View Post
If you go after Carter you need to pony up a lot more than that.

You need to:
1. Give a lot more than you'd want to, not just scraps like Ebbett or Carter
2. Help Philly now and in the future, 1st this year is a must + a high level prospect
3. Make it Cap-friendly for the Flyers, Hiller insted of Giguere
4. Brace youself for abuse
1.Sadly, Ebbet and Carter are the biggest "scraps" the Ducks have. Selanne,Getzlaf,Perry, and Ryan are hands off players that are probaly going to retire in Ducks uni's. Jeff Carter had a 1.024 PPG this season. Ebbet had a .666 and Carter was damn friggin impressive in the playoffs, contrary to the other Carter.

2. 1st and Kontiola is fine with me.

3. I honestly don't think Hiller is going anywhere

4. I have the kneepads ready.

Giguere+1st+Kontiola+Ebbet+Carter for Jeff Carter then. That is about as much as the Ducks wil give up and if that still isn't enough from a Philly prospective then it isn't happening. Richards might be another option for the Ducks but I don't think Philly will get nearly as much in return. And there's no way the Ducks are going to take on a million year contract.

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05-17-2009, 03:09 PM
  #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8inblack View Post
How about Giguere+Ebbet+Ryan Carter for Jeff Carter? Possible switch of picks as well (Anaheim picks 15th, Philly 21st)
No. Just...no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8inblack View Post
Giguere+1st+Kontiola+Ebbet+Carter for Jeff Carter then. That is about as much as the Ducks wil give up and if that still isn't enough from a Philly prospective then it isn't happening. Richards might be another option for the Ducks but I don't think Philly will get nearly as much in return. And there's no way the Ducks are going to take on a million year contract.
No. Just...no.

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05-17-2009, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
No. Just...no.


No. Just...no.
Yea that's what I figured when I first said those things. If Philadelphia doesn't want that I think the Ducks have to consider what Edmonton is willing to give up vs lowering the Value from Philly to Gagne.

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