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Old
05-17-2009, 02:18 PM
  #151
Shadow Flyer
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Originally Posted by 8inblack View Post
Yea that's what I figured when I first said those things. If Philadelphia doesn't want that I think the Ducks have to consider what Edmonton is willing to give up vs lowering the Value from Philly to Gagne.
That's fair enough. There's just no way Philly moves young guns like Carter or Richards for that kind of package. I can see how it doesn't make sense for the Ducks to give up more, from their perspective, but there's no way the Flyers give up Carter or Richards for that package. Its organizational suicide, IMO.

If the shoe was on the other foot, and the Ducks needed goaltending, would you trade Getzlaf or Perry for that package, because that's essentially what you are proposing to Philly.

If you can get the value you seek from Edmonton, then by all means, be my quest. The Flyers walk away from anything like this.

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05-17-2009, 02:44 PM
  #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
That's fair enough. There's just no way Philly moves young guns like Carter or Richards for that kind of package. I can see how it doesn't make sense for the Ducks to give up more, from their perspective, but there's no way the Flyers give up Carter or Richards for that package. Its organizational suicide, IMO.

If the shoe was on the other foot, and the Ducks needed goaltending, would you trade Getzlaf or Perry for that package, because that's essentially what you are proposing to Philly.

If you can get the value you seek from Edmonton, then by all means, be my quest. The Flyers walk away from anything like this.
Yea I think the big problem in this thread is the fans inability to evaluate the other teams talent because they rarely get to see each other. As for the goaltending, I might send Getzlaf or Perry if the Ducks had the scoring Depth the Flyers had and weren't pretty much a one line team. Goaltending is what wins playoff games and Giguere has pretty much carried two teams to SCF appearences. I don't get why people are saying it's because of the D? Do you not remember 03?

As for Edmonton the Ducks might be able to get O'Sullivan and Nillson for Giguere. This would effectively give the Ducks a Ebbet-O'Sullivan-Selanne second line and allow them to have somewhat of a scoring third line if they can get a free agent (D.Sedin?). This would bump Ebbet down to the third line and give the ducks
D.Sedin-O'Sullivan-Selanne
Ebbet-Carter-Nillson
Niedermayer-Miller-Parros

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05-17-2009, 05:27 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Talentless Practise View Post
You guys are trying to have your cake and eat it too. You say the fact Tampa was looking to shed salary made Richards lose value while at the same time when Philly is looking to shed salary that has no bearing on your players value.
no your misudnerstanding the players involved. the richards deal was a cap dump. yes thers alot of talent there but theres going to be otherwise he wouldnt have got that kind of money in the first place. what your saying is that since that deal got richards then they could have gotten st louis who is a player tampa wasnt looking to move. this is the same leap in logic as transferring brieres negative value to gagne.



if a team is looking to make capspace theyre going to move players who can be suitably filled in for by cheaper players. what young players are coming up for the flyers and what roles do they play? claude giroux a playmaking c/rw and jvr a power forward. who is a ufa this year? mike knuble a power forward. hence the next logical step would be to allow for an opening at center. which is why brieres name come up alot. its not that he doesnt adequately fulfill the role hes in its that the flyers can get better bang for the buck.

but your asking for a scorer. the flyers have 3 scorers carter gagne and lupul. the plan in place being that lupuls development will allow him to effectively replace gagne in the lineup when gagne is a free agent in two years. fans have questioned this plan because they question lupuls ability not gagnes. by dealing gagne your asking the flyers to assume that lupul is ready now which is a chance we could take if given proper incentive.

but no one has. ive yet to see an offer that could even be considered a draw for the flyers let alone a win. i think the belief (which is highly exaggerated and wide spread) that the flyers are desperate for goaltending and cap space has led to an expectation of overpayment which im simply not willing to accept.

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Old
05-17-2009, 05:30 PM
  #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8inblack View Post
Yea I think the big problem in this thread is the fans inability to evaluate the other teams talent because they rarely get to see each other. As for the goaltending, I might send Getzlaf or Perry if the Ducks had the scoring Depth the Flyers had and weren't pretty much a one line team. Goaltending is what wins playoff games and Giguere has pretty much carried two teams to SCF appearences. I don't get why people are saying it's because of the D? Do you not remember 03?

As for Edmonton the Ducks might be able to get O'Sullivan and Nillson for Giguere. This would effectively give the Ducks a Ebbet-O'Sullivan-Selanne second line and allow them to have somewhat of a scoring third line if they can get a free agent (D.Sedin?). This would bump Ebbet down to the third line and give the ducks
D.Sedin-O'Sullivan-Selanne
Ebbet-Carter-Nillson
Niedermayer-Miller-Parros

Your very, very naive if you think the Sedins will split up.

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Old
05-17-2009, 05:34 PM
  #155
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What about JVR for Hiller?

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Old
05-17-2009, 05:37 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
You don't EVEN want to go talking about playoff performance because Brad Richards cant hold Brieres jock strap in that catagory.
WOW, one of the dumbest things I have ever heard, even from your rose colored HOMER glasses.

All I will use as an arguement is Brad Richards name on the Conn Smythe Trophy

Since I am starting to understand you level of hockey knowledge, thats the trophy for the most valuable player in the playoffs.

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Old
05-17-2009, 11:08 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by The Pucks View Post
WOW, one of the dumbest things I have ever heard, even from your rose colored HOMER glasses.

All I will use as an arguement is Brad Richards name on the Conn Smythe Trophy

Since I am starting to understand you level of hockey knowledge, thats the trophy for the most valuable player in the playoffs.
That's partially because Richards' team won the playoffs though (the Conn Smythe)...Briere didn't have that luxury.

Briere has been just about a point-per-game player the past 4 years in the playoffs...that's fairly impressive.

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Old
05-17-2009, 11:10 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by BrindamoursNose View Post
That's partially because Richards' team won the playoffs though (the Conn Smythe)...Briere didn't have that luxury.

Briere has been just about a point-per-game player the past 4 years in the playoffs...that's fairly impressive.
Thats pretty weak. Richards won the Conn Smythe because he had a great playoffs and lead his team to a cup victory. Im sorry but anybody who says Briere is a better playoff performer is a homer, nothing more, nothing less.

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05-17-2009, 11:15 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by The Pucks View Post
Thats pretty weak. Richards won the Conn Smythe because he had a great playoffs and lead his team to a cup victory. Im sorry but anybody who says Briere is a better playoff performer is a homer, nothing more, nothing less.

They have very comparable numbers in the playoffs lately, with Briere being possibly the best playoff performer since the lockout.

Why do you have to be a homer to think he could be just as good, if not better?

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Old
05-17-2009, 11:17 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by The Pucks View Post
Thats pretty weak. Richards won the Conn Smythe because he had a great playoffs and lead his team to a cup victory. Im sorry but anybody who says Briere is a better playoff performer is a homer, nothing more, nothing less.
...

Playoff Performances:

Briere: 63 GP - 23 G - 34 A - 57 P
Richards: 63 GP - 21 G - 41 A - 62 P

Um...it's a lot closer than you seem to be arguing. On top of that most of Richards' points come in his one Conn Smythe year. Briere's are stacked even through different seasons with long trips through the playoffs.

On top of that Briere has the most playoff goals since the lockout.

Say what you want, but you're pretty misinformed if not uneducated.

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Old
05-17-2009, 11:28 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by twenty2 View Post
...

Playoff Performances:

Briere: 63 GP - 23 G - 34 A - 57 P
Richards: 63 GP - 21 G - 41 A - 62 P

Um...it's a lot closer than you seem to be arguing. On top of that most of Richards' points come in his one Conn Smythe year. Briere's are stacked even through different seasons with long trips through the playoffs.

On top of that Briere has the most playoff goals since the lockout.

Say what you want, but you're pretty misinformed if not uneducated.
i think theres some middle ground between "cant carry his jock" and "obvious homer" to say that they are comparable playoff performers. which to me says how underrated briere is that hes right up there with a guy who won the conn smythe.

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Old
05-18-2009, 12:11 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by twenty2 View Post
For the last time, NO.

Gagne

FOR

Hiller + 1st 09 + Beauchemin's rights

And even that's a stretch from Philadelphia.
I agree with the NO for the other proposals but that's too much for Gagne.

Realistically, Gagne + a 3rd in 09 for Hiller and 1st in 09. If you don't like it then IDC.
Gagne is one of the best wingers in the game and if you want him you have to pony up the goods to get him. To my knowledge Gagne hasn't missed a Team Canada Team for any international event since he came out of juniors. there aren't a whole lot of players who can boast that. This puts him in the company of guys like Lecavalier, Iginla and such for forwards. Barring a really bad start to next season or an injury he will most likely be on Canada's Olympic team again for the 2010 games.

Again, if we wanted to deal Gagne for just a goalie then we could get Lehtonen straight up for him I'd bet. I think Atlanta would jump all over that offer nad until Hiller proves he's more than a 1 hit wonder even an injury prone Lehtonen >>> Hiller.

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Old
05-18-2009, 12:23 AM
  #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twenty2 View Post
...

Playoff Performances:

Briere: 63 GP - 23 G - 34 A - 57 P
Richards: 63 GP - 21 G - 41 A - 62 P

Um...it's a lot closer than you seem to be arguing. On top of that most of Richards' points come in his one Conn Smythe year. Briere's are stacked even through different seasons with long trips through the playoffs.

On top of that Briere has the most playoff goals since the lockout.

Say what you want, but you're pretty misinformed if not uneducated.
Take out 1 outstanding year in the regular season and playoffs from Brad Richards resume and he's an average 2nd line center on most teams.

Richards playoff numbers without his 1 good year: 40 gp - 9g - 27a. Not exactly stellar for a 7 mil player is it??? He had one tremendous season which extended into the playoffs. Brad Richards is what he is, a 2nd line center on an average team. He took one great season and parlayed it into a 7+ mil contract that he's CLEARLY not close to being worth. Gagne is better than Brad Richards and at just 5.25 mil he's ten billion times more valuable than Richards is at more than 7 mil (see, I told people that I love that Ten Billion exaggeration number, hehehe). If you copare what the player brings to the table relative to their contracts then Briere is the one who is comparable to Richards. Briere has been a very good center in this league since the lockout and the "new" NHL.

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05-18-2009, 12:54 AM
  #164
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One last thing, I'm not advocating a Briere for Hiller + deal similar to the Brad Richards deal. I was simply trying to show you what Brad Richards really is as a player and who he really compares to on the Flyers. I don't think there is any chance that Briere's wife would let him move their family that far away from Buffalo (her hometown) so that's a moot discussion.

I won't pretend to know what the Ducks need nor what they should feel lucky to recieve in a deal. I personally don't think Lupul even at 4.25 mil is bad. He'll likely be slightly overpaid for a year or 2 and then at about the right price for a year or 2 and then a bargin for the last year or 2 (note, I know his deal isn't for 6 years so not all of them can be for the full 2 years). Also, if he signed a shorter deal he would be a UFA sooner and be getting a bigger pay day then (it's honestly unlikey that his production drops off and he plays himself into a lesser player like a Nik Antropov, personally I'd want Lupul over Nik). If you don't like him then fine, it doesn't mean your GM feels the same way.

If it's not Lupul (and note, if it IS Lupul then yes I believe the Flyers would have to include more, I'm just using him as the centerpiece of the speculated deal) and your GM wants say JVR then Ana would have to add a very significant piece to get that kind of return.

Last, do you know how many teams are lining up telling us they have our goalie solution for us??? Yes they are all asking for an arma and a leg too but the point is that it's a buyers market, not a sellers market. Hiller, Price, Halak, Pavelec, Lehtonen, Harding, Luongo, Schneider, JSG, Nabakov, and probably more than I'm forgetting are being offered up as trade bait on these boards. I know there are more teams than the Flyers who want and need a goalie but with UFA's of Khabibulin, Fernandez, Roloson, Biron, Gerber, Legacy and Emery out there as UFA's there is no need to give up a Simon Gagne straight up for Hiller. Hiller is proably 5th or 6th on my list for the guys I listed above so yeah, I like him more than most, but you have ot weight the cost of losing a player like Gagne when you might be able to get a slightly lesser quality goalie for either nothing (a UFA signing) or a signficantly lesser asset (like Lupul + for Pavelec).

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Old
05-18-2009, 12:59 AM
  #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captainpaxil View Post
i think theres some middle ground between "cant carry his jock" and "obvious homer" to say that they are comparable playoff performers. which to me says how underrated briere is that hes right up there with a guy who won the conn smythe.
Take away the one outlier season for Richards and Briere is clearly the better offensive forward. However, Richards is the better all around center and bring a strong defensive game and PK abilities to a team of which Briere is clearly lacking. They are differnt types of players, both quality centers on less than desirable contracts. they are completely comparable for the example quoted as pertinan value of Hiller in a trade. Gagne and his 5.25 mil contract is NOT comparable to Brad Richards and his 7.8 mil contract.

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Old
05-18-2009, 01:10 AM
  #166
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
.

Richards playoff numbers without his 1 good year: 40 gp - 9g - 27a. Not exactly stellar for a 7 mil player is it???

I gotta tell you, you make it so easy to emberass you.

So, other than his Conn Smythe year Brad Richards only has 9 goals and 27 assists for 36 points in 40 games. Now interestingly if you prorate that over 63 games that is 57 points in 63 games..

Now remind me of that number that Briere has for a career? Oh yeah, 57 points in 63 games. The exact same prorated production of Richards where you term it as "Not exactly stellar for a 7 mil player is it???"

Man, you gotta do some research before trying to nail somebody.

So, just to finish this off, Brad Richards has had, in your words, one outstanding season in the playoffs, then "not exactly stellar" for the rest of his career. Where the hell does that leave Briere????


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Old
05-18-2009, 01:17 AM
  #167
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Take out 1 outstanding year in the regular season and playoffs from Brad Richards resume and he's an average 2nd line center on most teams.

Richards playoff numbers without his 1 good year: 40 gp - 9g - 27a. Not exactly stellar for a 7 mil player is it??? He had one tremendous season which extended into the playoffs. Brad Richards is what he is, a 2nd line center on an average team. He took one great season and parlayed it into a 7+ mil contract that he's CLEARLY not close to being worth. NHL.
Lets take this a bit father, you say with Richards, take out the one outstanding season and he is an average 2nd line center on most teams, those are your words. In Richards career less that one season he has averaged .85 points per game.

In Briere's career he has averaged .80 points per games.

If .85 per game makes Richards an average 2nd line center on most teams, what does that make Briere with an average of .80 points per game?

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Old
05-18-2009, 01:46 AM
  #168
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Lets take this a bit father, you say with Richards, take out the one outstanding season and he is an average 2nd line center on most teams, those are your words. In Richards career less that one season he has averaged .85 points per game.

In Briere's career he has averaged .80 points per games.

If .85 per game makes Richards an average 2nd line center on most teams, what does that make Briere with an average of .80 points per game?
To be fair, it seems as though Briere started off his career much slower than Richards has, but Briere has since really picked up in the lest 6 years.

They're extremely comparable players, I don't think one is miles better than the other now.

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05-18-2009, 01:49 AM
  #169
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To be fair, it seems as though Briere started off his career much slower than Richards has, but Briere has since really picked up in the lest 6 years.

They're extremely comparable players, I don't think one is miles better than the other now.
Yes, Briere did start his career off slower, but this logic is used to combat the other posters constant use of skewed stats, frankly I was more trying to show how stats can be twisted many ways to support an argument. This goes much farther than this thread. Ironicaly one of my previous posts to him was about stats being for losers. I thought the irony might be lost.

If I really wanted to push the point I would have mentioned that Briere has only had one "outstanding season" where he scored more points than Richards, and that season should be take out of his points per game ratio to further downrate it.

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05-18-2009, 01:53 AM
  #170
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1) Is it even possible for Anaheim to take on the salary cap hit?

2) When has any goalie, let alone one who has started 69 games over two years (including playoffs), ever brought back a player like Gagne?

It has to be considered by Philly, since we need a goalie, we would save cap space, and we are strong up front. That said, past market value for goalies is well below the level of Simon Gagne.
That's what I'm thinking...Anaheim would do this if Selanne was retiring this time for real. But I think Anaheim would have to throw in a 2nd rounder at least.

- R

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05-18-2009, 12:25 PM
  #171
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I just think you need to consider the Jeff Finger affect. It seems average UFA defenseman get 3.5, some arguably better could easily get 4.5-5. THe only thing that could drive down value is fear of cap reduction next year.

I think JBO, will get a very high / cap hit or a long term deal (like 10 year 60 million, or 5 year 35, etc.).

One comment that seems to come up consistently with with Flyer Fans is the Briere earning his contract. I think 2 things work against him.

1 = length of the deal. Many people so those as dangerous contracts.
2 = his size makes him prone for injuries. He's undersized center. This may not be true, but perception is stronger than facts.

Obviously people target Gagne because he has a more perceived value.

But like Talent said, trading Hiller for Gagne solves your goaltending problems and you'd still have a strong core of top 6 forwards. More importantly you'd be freeing up quite a bit of cap space to go after some free agent physical d-man (which from what I read is what the team is really lacking). I'm also sure the ducks would add something to the deal, but I don't think it would be a 1st in this year's draft, or their top prospect. That could be worked out.

I guess the question is would you rather keep Gagne and field a team with Biron/Firnandez or trade Gagne and field a team with Hiller + another stud on defense.
Hiller is a good goalie, but he's not an established goalie. I think it would be stupid for Holmgrem to trade a well established, homegrown veteran with at least 5 more years left of production and extremely solid in both ends (which is a rarity) for a good young goalie with potential, but again, it depends on your needs. Like you pointed out, the Flyers #1 need now is that big bruising d-man who strikes fear into the opposition. We can obviously win with Biron, we proved that in 07-08, but we need to protect the crease better for him.

As for JBo and Komisarek, if these guys truely want to win, sign at a discount price for a chance for the cup. Cross your fingers because it's unlikely, but it's not impossible!

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05-18-2009, 04:00 PM
  #172
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Hiller is a good goalie, but he's not an established goalie. I think it would be stupid for Holmgrem to trade a well established, homegrown veteran with at least 5 more years left of production and extremely solid in both ends (which is a rarity) for a good young goalie with potential, but again, it depends on your needs. Like you pointed out, the Flyers #1 need now is that big bruising d-man who strikes fear into the opposition. We can obviously win with Biron, we proved that in 07-08, but we need to protect the crease better for him.

As for JBo and Komisarek, if these guys truely want to win, sign at a discount price for a chance for the cup. Cross your fingers because it's unlikely, but it's not impossible!
yeah, Jbo is going to give a Detroit like discount to Philly to win the cup. And I just bought the winning lottery ticket.

When was the last time Philly won the cup? When is the last time Philly was in the cup finals? I think you might want to prove a bit more before you start counting you cup wins since 1976.

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05-18-2009, 04:09 PM
  #173
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yeah, Jbo is going to give a Detroit like discount to Philly to win the cup. And I just bought the winning lottery ticket.

When was the last time Philly won the cup? When is the last time Philly was in the cup finals? I think you might want to prove a bit more before you start counting you cup wins since 1976.

Not only a hypocrite, but a troll, as well. People like you ruin threads.

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05-18-2009, 04:12 PM
  #174
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Not only a hypocrite, but a troll, as well. People like you ruin threads.
And people like you who join in and dont bother to read the previous 7 pages of this thread?

Sorry you small person, I have been in this thread since the beginning, its just so sad that you cant understand when your getting beat up, you should quit.

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05-18-2009, 04:14 PM
  #175
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And people like you who join in and dont bother to read the previous 7 pages of this thread?

Sorry you small person, I have been in this thread since the beginning, its just so sad that you cant understand when your getting beat up, you should quit.

Everything I've posted has been 100% true, and you ARE a troll.

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