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Old
05-18-2009, 03:13 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by bzer View Post
Since when was Toronto trading Sundin for Chris Higgins? Make a more complete post next time.
higgins and picks was the deal that was suppose to be on the table from montreal.
to make your op more complete maybe explain how exactly sundin held the re-build back 3-5 yrs?

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05-18-2009, 03:22 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by akiberg View Post
Yep, delayed our re-build 3-5yrs. We are indeed a Chris Higgens away from being perennial contenders, lol.
People have this never ending fantasy that another team would have heap riches on the Leafs for a three month rental.

Chris Higgins in addition to being no better than players these same guys want to get rid of from the Leafs is an RFA now.

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05-18-2009, 03:28 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by bzer View Post
His number will msot likely be up in the rafters but when people talk about Sundin in a couple decades, they won't be talking about what Sundin did for the Leafs but how he ended his career with another team and delayed our rebuild by 3-5 years.
How did he delay the rebuild by "years"? Certainly Chris Higgins and three picks aren't the salvation you're talking about.

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05-18-2009, 03:28 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
People have this never ending fantasy that another team would have heap riches on the Leafs for a three month rental.

Chris Higgins in addition to being no better than players these same guys want to get rid of from the Leafs is an RFA now.
I agree its all fantasy. It makes me laugh when I read those posts with the 'holding back the re-build' statements. It's a instant gratification world we live in, if only life was as simple as NHL09.

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05-18-2009, 03:31 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by bzer View Post
His number will msot likely be up in the rafters but when people talk about Sundin in a couple decades, they won't be talking about what Sundin did for the Leafs but how he ended his career with another team and delayed our rebuild by 3-5 years.
He didn't delay anything. Blame management, if anything, for trading away Rask, or Boyes.. He waived a clause in his contract, which was HIS RIGHT. He took less money to have it there.

Kaberle delayed it much more than he did by your reasoning, but people don't say **** about that. He had the same clause and more coming back.

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05-18-2009, 03:38 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Fox X Mulder View Post
Fletcher has said on many occasions that he wanted Sundin back and there was a contract waiting for him.
It was Sundin that said NO.
I guess Sundin fans will say well he had the right to be pissed off after what the Leafs tried to do.
Sorry that's doesn't fly with me, a lot of great hockey players (Foresberg is one) agree to leave a team and in doing so help the team that traded them. If you can't see the hypocrisy in Sundin's very emotional statements, well, what can I say.
Bottom line is Sundin DID set the rebuild back a few years.
Sundin never set anything back, management did. When Fletch was the GM, Mats didn't know if he wanted to play or not. Would you sign a contract if you weren't sure if you wanted to play or not?

Besides, Mats coming back would have done what for the team? Gave us a 9th place finish?

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05-18-2009, 03:42 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Fox X Mulder View Post
Sundin influenced Kaberle and Kubbina.
I'll stop you right there. He didn't "influence" anyone. Know what actually influenced Kubina? The blowout win against the Sens the night before the deadline and he still had hopes for the playoffs. Get your facts right first, atleast.

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05-18-2009, 03:46 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Fox X Mulder View Post
Sundin influenced Kaberle and Kubbina. The Flyers offered Carter and a 1st. Rumours were that SJ offered a first and Bernier. The Wings offered a package for Sundin, it wasn't just Montreal.
With those 3 gone, the Leafs probably would have not missed out of a top 5 by a few points and then not had to trade up to get Luke.
But hey, that's okay, honour him and enjoy many many many more years of mediocrity.
He will be honoured. He'll be honoured as one of the all-time leaf greats. It's managements job to improve the hockey team, it's a hockey player's job to play hockey. If you want to lament many more years of mediocrity maybe you should direct your simplistic outlook on the leafs woes at MLSE. Sundin had a hall of fame career in a leaf's jersey, end of conversation. Maybe all the hurt Sundin has caused you will one day heal and you'll come to appreciate him as the hockey player he was.

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05-18-2009, 03:49 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Fox X Mulder View Post
This coming from a guy with a nick of AkiBerg
that statement makes about as much sense as saying Sundin 'influenced' the decisions of other free thinking individuals. keep going fox mulder, you are on a roll. lol

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05-18-2009, 03:50 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Fox X Mulder View Post
You're right. Matts had the right to say no. He said no.
Imagine where the Flyers would be today if Foreberg had said no. Yet Peter had no allegiance to Philadelphia. The Flyers never paid him 70+ million dollars, yet he agreed and helped a team he had no allegiance to. Leafs had the wrong Swede in my opinion.
Well it was his right, you admit that, so what's the problem?

I hope they never paid him that much, seeing as he was hurt alot and didn't play there long. He took a discount to have a NMC and waived that right. What about the others who didn't waive?

It'd be easier to help a team that you didn't play on long then leave a team you spent 13 years on.

Oh and btw, it's Mats

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05-18-2009, 03:52 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Fox X Mulder View Post
You're not going to stop me anywhere, bud.
Both Kabs and Kubina stated that they were influenced by Sundins decision. They both said had Sundin agreed to be traded, they would have.
So YOU get your facts right!
Dude, Kubina was going to agree until that blowout win. He said he would have waived if they didn't win like that but felt they would make the playoffs.

Maybe Kaberle and Kubina should have a mind of their own and shouldn't be influenced by someone elses decision. It's not Mats fault that they won't waive unless he does.

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05-18-2009, 04:26 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Fox X Mulder View Post
Don't get me wrong. I liked Mats. He was a great Leaf. Though I wouldn't put him in the same category as Wendel or Dougie.
I just think that if he had agreed to be traded how better the Leafs future would look. Yes, it's speculation. That said, he did have the right to say no.
What bothered me more was the tears he shed and the comments he made, then he turned around and said NO to coming back.

We are first and foremost Leafs fans. We may disagree on some things, but in the end we do want, what we deserve the Cup back in Toronto.
One day the hurt will heal for you Fox. You'll maybe realise that sport is afterall a business and sometimes business decisions are made that hurt people's feelings. You have NO idea what exactly happened with Sundin, yet you form an opinion from Steve Simmons articles and message boards that he himself is responsible for everything that transpired in the last year. Then you turn around and make the statement that most leaf fans are stupid. ok..
Also, I wouldn't put Mats in the same category as Wendal or Dougie either. Having actually watched them all play, Mats is clearly a category above those two guys.

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05-18-2009, 04:32 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Snipeshow View Post
By the sounds of it, Sundin not accepting a trade last TDD completely erases 13 seasons as a Leaf and the leading scoring in franchise history.

Good to see the children around here still hold grudges like a high school girl who stole your boyfriend.

Anybody who thinks Mats doesn't deserved to have his number honored either doesn't know anything about hockey or is pissed at the fact that Sundin stay on as a Leaf last season to try and push his team into the playoffs.

Either reason is a poor reason.
Couldn't have said it any better Snipe

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05-18-2009, 04:32 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Fox X Mulder View Post
Don't get me wrong. I liked Mats. He was a great Leaf. Though I wouldn't put him in the same category as Wendel or Dougie.
I just think that if he had agreed to be traded how better the Leafs future would look. Yes, it's speculation. That said, he did have the right to say no.
What bothered me more was the tears he shed and the comments he made, then he turned around and said NO to coming back.

We are first and foremost Leafs fans. We may disagree on some things, but in the end we do want, what we deserve the Cup back in Toronto.
Thankyou for speaking the truth. His decision resulted in the others saying. Take your leaf homer goggles off. His late season heroics screwed us over a great defencemen in last year's draft. When you're setting to rebuild, you veterans have to move on. Other teams it happens but in Leaf land there is no motive to do so?

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05-18-2009, 04:46 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Fox X Mulder View Post
This coming from a guy with a nick of AkiBerg

by the way, there is no hurt, in fact, as a Leaf fan, I laugh at the Leaf organisation and leaf fans for being some of the stupidest fans in the league.
That said, no fans are as loyal as Leaf fans.....stupid (some of them) but loyal.
If you are one of the smartest then God help us all.

Please, if you can, show me a team that shot to the top based on the returns from selling off players at the deadline. I can show you several that spent several more years in mediocrity or worse after doing that. Cripes, Florida has been doing nothing but selling off players for draft picks for the last 10 years.

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Old
05-18-2009, 04:48 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Fox X Mulder View Post
In the history of the NHL no team has had 5 players all refuse to waive their NTC/NMC. Well, other than the Leafs.

By the way, Matts-Mats...colour-color....favour-favor....honour-honor
Not many teams have had that many NTC/NMC at the same time.

And no, those are different. Only one way to spell a persons name.

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05-18-2009, 06:04 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Fox X Mulder View Post
Don't get me wrong. I liked Mats. He was a great Leaf. Though I wouldn't put him in the same category as Wendel or Dougie.
I just think that if he had agreed to be traded how better the Leafs future would look. Yes, it's speculation. That said, he did have the right to say no.
What bothered me more was the tears he shed and the comments he made, then he turned around and said NO to coming back.

We are first and foremost Leafs fans. We may disagree on some things, but in the end we do want, what we deserve the Cup back in Toronto.
The disturbing thing about Sundin was that he DIDN'T want to be traded to a real contender, even with the knowledge that he could return to Toronto the following year. You'd think that a guy would want to drink from the Cup at least once in his caeer, but he claimed that he didn't want to be a "rental" player, coming to a team half way through the year, and that he wanted to retire as a Leaf.

So what did he do? We all know the answer to that!

If he was going to go to another team, he could have at least helped out the team he claimed to have tatooed on his heart. We could have received a significant return at the trade deadline for Mats, but we got absolutely nothing. We got STIFFED!

We will no doubt see his jersey raised to the rafters, but I will never have the same reverence for his #13 that I have for #17, 27 or 93.

And I'm glad the Canucks got beaten out by the Hawks. As far as I'm concerned, he doesn't deserve to have his name on the Stanley Cup.

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05-18-2009, 06:15 PM
  #93
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I've come to the conclusion a while ago that most of the people ripping Mats' would do so no matter what he did. That they don't hate him for what he did, that they just for whatever reason hated him and would find any reason to try and rip into him.

If he accepted a trade then his loyalty would come into question, if he didn't, then he didn't want to win and didn't care at all about winning at the NHL level. If he signed with the Leafs for another season he would only be in it for the money because he would obviously know the Leafs had no chance of winning, if he signed somewhere else it would be for the money or bandwagoning on to another team's success, and again, people would get to jump on his supposed loyalty.

I guess the biggest leap in logic I've ever seen though is suggesting a guy didn't want to abandon his teammates during a season as being disloyal. I mean really, Mark Messier gave him an award for his loyalty and his leadership, but somehow people on here know better.

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05-18-2009, 06:23 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Fox X Mulder View Post
Most would disagree with you on that one.
Mats was a good player but he sure to hell was no leader like Gilmour or Clarke.
Apart from a couple of years with the Leafs there really is no evidence that either one was an effective leader. Gilmour did basically nothing after leaving Toronto nor did Clark.

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05-18-2009, 06:35 PM
  #95
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This thread makes me laugh. Some of you just dont get it

Just because Mats didnt have that same on-ice fire that Gilmour and Wendel have, he isnt as good. Just because the fans didnt cheer his name, he wasnt as good. The guy was as good a silent leader as any. His leadership to this team for years was top notch and he was a PPG player who came back from injuries faster than any player I have seen before.

And I wish some of you would get what he meant with all this talk of a rental player. He didnt want to start training camp with one team, only to be traded as a rental to another. He didnt want to work hard for 60 games with one team, only to end up with another. Its a tough transition, even for a pro. And that was exactly what he DIDNT do. He started HIS year with the same team - Vancouver. He trained all off-season to be with one team and regardless of whether it was the Leafs or not, he stuck to his word. Im sure he would love to have retired a Leaf, but why would he come back to a rebuilding team at his age?

Bottom line is his number will be raised whether some of you whiny kids like it or not. And it is what he deserves.

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05-18-2009, 07:25 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgupca View Post
Not too sure how a Business effects Sundin's passion, the guy never played with heart or passion (when it mattered). He was happy sinking with this ship and taking his buddies Tucker and McCabe with him.

Of course its a 'business' and players are going to be greedy, but it would have been nice for Sundin to play with some "passion that unites us all"

It was nice to finally watch a Fresh-young team this season, but i'm certainly happy we are moving forward without the hands of JFJ all over this team.

But like i said, Sundin will be honoured (i've never denied that) he just never brought to this franchise what Dougie or Clark did. But again, thats my opinion,,,and if that bothers you i really don't care.
Are you trying to hint that Tucker and McCabe were heartless players?

Dude I'd suggest you leave this thread before you get flamed like a whopper

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05-18-2009, 07:30 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by sgupca View Post
William Adams: From the Maple Leaf Webside....Gilmour as our Captain:







This is turning into more of an argument than I wanted, But this picture and information came directly from the leafs webpage, and according to this Gilmour led the leafs deeper than any Captain since 1967.

So much for not winning a playoff round eh
Yup 16-20 is right. Clark was the captain of those early 90 teams. As soon as we traded him we did not win a round

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05-18-2009, 07:59 PM
  #98
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The post lockout Leafs were the most heartless Leaf team I've ever seen, and I've been cheering for the Buds since the early 70s. They were painful to watch. They just seemed to accept losing and being pushed around so easily, and I put much of the blame for that squarely on the shoulders of Sundin. After Gary Roberts left (and even though he didn't have a C on his sweater, he WAS the leader), this truly became Sundin's team, and they started playing just like him.

What do I mean?

If Roberts was bearing in on a defenseman who threw the puck along the boards, Roberts would try to put him through the glass. This type of play is infectious, and the Leafs, almost to a man, played that way. Wendel played the same way. So did little Dougie. How can you not go out and sacrifice yourself when you see Gilmour fearlessly hurling himself at guys who stood a half foot taller than him and and outweighed him by 60 lbs? Dougie was the first guy into a scrum if somebody laid a questionable hit on another Leaf.

Sundin never played that way. Instead of hammering a guy he'd just follow the puck. We ended up with one of the biggest, yet at the same time, softest teams in the league. It's a lack of leadership. Sundin is 6'4 and about 240. How often did he use that huge frame of his to punish an opposing defenseman? How often did he lay down the law against an opponent who took liberties with a teammate?

6' 190 lb. Sittler did
6' 180 lb. Rick Vaive did
5' 11 190 lb. Wendel did
even 5' 10 170 lb. Dougie did

Sundin? No.

He was a good (but not great) offensive player. He never got 50 goals (like Vaive did 3 times) or scored anywhere near the 127 points that Gilmour had-while winning the Selke. His impressive numbers are CAREER-based numbers, and that's because his body never took the type of battering that Gary Roberts or Wendel took...because he played a SOFT game.

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05-18-2009, 08:17 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Fox X Mulder View Post
In the history of the NHL no team has had 5 players all refuse to waive their NTC/NMC. Well, other than the Leafs.

By the way, Matts-Mats...colour-color....favour-favor....honour-honor
God, maybe you can concentrate on watching the Pens and Hawks and stop worrying about the Leafs?

The marriage between Sundin and the Leafs obviously didn't end well, but at the end of the day there are no real villains here. The Leafs tried to shop him repeatedly for their long term gain and didn't give him the chance to retire with the team. Sundin's plans to stay here were obviously ruined and feelings were hurt. Just leave it alone.

The guy will be honoured at some point and let's leave it at that.

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05-18-2009, 08:47 PM
  #100
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Perhaps the most stinging indictment of Sundin's leadership was the lack of a reaction when Garnet Exelby destroyed him with a crushing charge/shoulder hit to Sundin's head...a hit that left him crumpled on the ice with blood on his face. This was their Captain, yet not one Leaf even touched Exelby. That was pathetic.

When McSorley (one of hockey's most feared heavyweights) nailed Gilmour with an elbow to the head in that great '93 playoff run, Wendel didn't hesitate to take him on. Not only that, other fights erupted and the whole Leaf team was threatening the LA bench. The lack of a response on behalf of Sundin, their captain, sent a loud and clear message that you can go after any Leaf without fear of retribution.

Thankfully those days are behind us. Luke Schenn and the rest of the team Brian Burke will put together will be be a Leaf team we can be proud of.

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