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Old
05-18-2009, 09:00 PM
  #101
Stephen
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Originally Posted by bleeney View Post
Perhaps the most stinging indictment of Sundin's leadership was the lack of a reaction when Garnet Exelby destroyed him with a crushing charge/shoulder hit to Sundin's head...a hit that left him crumpled on the ice with blood on his face. This was their Captain, yet not one Leaf even touched Exelby. That was pathetic.

When McSorley (one of hockey's most feared heavyweights) nailed Gilmour with an elbow to the head in that great '93 playoff run, Wendel didn't hesitate to take him on. Not only that, other fights erupted and the whole Leaf team was threatening the LA bench. The lack of a response on behalf of Sundin, their captain, sent a loud and clear message that you can go after any Leaf without fear of retribution.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IPifDAomzQ

Kilger got the wrong guy but the Leafs responded. Check up your facts before the writing the revisionist history.

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05-18-2009, 09:27 PM
  #102
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Honestly, reading stuff on this board sometimes makes me wonder how people even survive every day life with the amazing amount of "intelligence" that gets thrown around here.

I was going to refute the Sundin non sense, then it occurred to me through reading this stuff, not one of you has made even one logical argument for Sundin to not to be honored. You all seem to just ramble on endlessly about non sense like his unbelievably bad leadership, something that was never questioned by a player that played here. You then go on to bring up players like Gilmour, a great player who could be argued amongst the best players to put on a Leafs jersey, also a player who demanded to no longer be apart of the team and moved.

Sundin demanding to stay was within his rights, it was in his contract. Saying the reason behind his decision for staying was that he would feel it was somehow less valuable or honorable to win a cup with a team that he was not part of from the beginning of the season is reason to be upset because of how things played out this season. It's to a point though people...

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05-18-2009, 09:30 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IPifDAomzQ

Kilger got the wrong guy but the Leafs responded. Check up your facts before the writing the revisionist history.
Revisionist history??? I know my facts. I said "Not one Leaf even touched Exelby"

Kilger responded...and DeVries jumped in front of Exelby and fought Kilger. That's how teammates stick up for each other. For the rest of the game not one Leaf went after Exelby for what he did to Sundin. Pathetic!

You are looking at the Leafs through Sundin-coloured glasses. Take them off and you will see clearly.

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05-18-2009, 09:40 PM
  #104
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7. wanted to retire a leaf - which i supported (until everything he said was a lie)
8. Talked all of his buddies into staying in town - Which costed us Jeff Carter, Chris Higgins, 1st round pick (Flyers), 1st round pick (Montreal), Garbovski - who we eventually landed anyway.
That's the key right there. If Sundin had left, all the other cards would have fallen. He set the franchise's rebuild back a couple of years.

PLUS.... instead of a bad team, we could have been a POOR team this season and had a real shot at Tavares, instead of having a shot at him if we use three draft picks, Schenn (who cost three draft picks) and another player.

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05-18-2009, 09:47 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Fox X Mulder View Post
Honour? I guess honour went out the window when Mats signed for 5 million half way through the season with Vancouver huh?
I guess he forgot about honour when he stated in tears that he wanted to retire a Leaf, that he didn't want to be a rental player, that he talked to Salming who told him he regrets not retiring as a Leaf and he wanted to be part of a team from October till the end.
With Mats honour is spelled MONEY!!!
So let me get this straight...

You're upset at Sundin because he didn't hop on a plane from Sweden to Toronto, get in a cab to take him to the MLSE building, walk into the building up to Mr. Burke's new office and then pull out this gun he just bought and force Burke to write him up a contract...

Is that pretty much it?

Or is it because the Leafs didn't want to sign him and he's supposed to retire when they say so?

Sundin wanted to retire a Leaf, he also wanted to win a cup. The Leafs were no longer going in that direction and they didn't want to be apart of Sundin. I'm sure your personal signed apology is in the mail.

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05-18-2009, 09:48 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Fox X Mulder View Post
Honour? I guess honour went out the window when Mats signed for 5 million half way through the season with Vancouver huh?
I guess he forgot about honour when he stated in tears that he wanted to retire a Leaf, that he didn't want to be a rental player, that he talked to Salming who told him he regrets not retiring as a Leaf and he wanted to be part of a team from October till the end.
With Mats honour is spelled MONEY!!!
Mats refused to be traded to a serious contender, where he would have had to endure a long playoff run in his late 30s playing with a bad hip. That may have finished him off.

Stanley Cup? Who cares. Instead of playing tough playoff hockey every second night, he went home for the summer, then spent another half season resting up. He was then able to earn another $5 million for a half year's work. He's a shrewd businessman. Give him credit.

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05-18-2009, 09:54 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Fox X Mulder View Post
Excuse me? Fletcher offered Sundin a contract. The Leafs DID WANT HIM BACK!
Was it the Leafs who wanted him back or Fletcher? Burke had another opinion when he joined.

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05-18-2009, 09:54 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Fox X Mulder View Post
Excuse me? Fletcher offered Sundin a contract. The Leafs DID WANT HIM BACK!
So you're upset that Sundin didn't allow himself to be moved to help the rebuild process along and yet you're someone even more mad at him for not signing with a rebuilding team with no chance of competing and taking away a roster spot from a young player to begin the rebuilding process (Mitchell most likely). Yep, this sure seems logical

And just a side note, Fletcher flip flopped on the issue many times because he damn well knew he wanted no part of Sundin. Burke outright said Sundin was not what the team needs.

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05-18-2009, 09:58 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Fox X Mulder View Post
You're not going to stop me anywhere, bud.
Both Kabs and Kubina stated that they were influenced by Sundins decision. They both said had Sundin agreed to be traded, they would have.
So YOU get your facts right!
show me that please. that's bull **** that they stated that

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05-18-2009, 11:37 PM
  #110
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These kids surely have been too young to remember how mighty Gilmour left the Leafs...

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05-19-2009, 12:26 AM
  #111
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These kids surely have been too young to remember how mighty Gilmour left the Leafs...
Gilmour left the Leafs in pretty good shape. The Leafs were struggling (just like Sundin's last 3 years here) and even though he loved Toronto (like Sundin) the team was going nowhere. He saw that, asked to be traded and by doing that he made sure that we got something to build a future on. It was a good deal for both teams.

Jason Smith went on to play close to 800 games, and serve as captain of the Oilers after Quinn foolishly traded him away for next to nothing.

McCauley unfortunately had concussion problems that ruined his career. I still remember how well he played through the playoffs, and if Sundin hadn't come back, we may have beat Carolina.

Sullivan scored 20 goals for us, then the Leafs foolisly put him on waivers. He went on to have a productive career, including a couple of 30+ goal seasons.

So what did Sundin leave us with when he left?

What was that? I can't hear you...


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05-19-2009, 12:39 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by bleeney View Post
Gilmour left the Leafs in pretty good shape. The Leafs were struggling (just like Sundin's last 3 years here) and even though he loved Toronto (like Sundin) the team was going nowhere. He saw that, asked to be traded and by doing that he made sure that we got something to build a future on. It was a good deal for both teams.

Jason Smith went on to play close to 800 games, and serve as captain of the Oilers after Quinn foolishly traded him away for next to nothing.

McCauley unfortunately had concussion problems that ruined his career. I still remember how well he played through the playoffs, and if Sundin hadn't come back, we may have beat Carolina.

Sullivan scored 20 goals for us, then the Leafs foolisly put him on waivers. He went on to have productive career, including a couple of 30+ goal seasons.

So what did Sundin leave us with when he left?

What was that? I can't hear you...
You make it sound like Gilmour fell on his sword, sacrificing himself so the Leafs could go on.

Fact is Gilmour was sick and tired of the way the Leafs were going, which was towards a last place finish in 1997, and he asked to go somewhere where he could be part of a winner.

The fact that he didn't have a NTC and that the Leafs got something for him on the trade market has nothing to do with Gilmour's loyalty to us. He wanted to leave, he did and then signed a fat contract with Chicago as a UFA, eschewing the Leafs and their then sad sacked team.

Last time I checked, it wasn't a player's responsibility to make sure his organization got compensation for him when leaving.

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05-19-2009, 01:00 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
You make it sound like Gilmour fell on his sword, sacrificing himself so the Leafs could go on.

Fact is Gilmour was sick and tired of the way the Leafs were going, which was towards a last place finish in 1997, and he asked to go somewhere where he could be part of a winner.

The fact that he didn't have a NTC and that the Leafs got something for him on the trade market has nothing to do with Gilmour's loyalty to us. He wanted to leave, he did and then signed a fat contract with Chicago as a UFA, eschewing the Leafs and their then sad sacked team.

Last time I checked, it wasn't a player's responsibility to make sure his organization got compensation for him when leaving.
Gilmour hated losing. The team was in disarray, going in the wrong direction, and the best thing for the team was to rebuild. His moving on was the best thing for him, for the Leafs, and ultimately for the fans.

As for your last comment, don't you think Sundin had some sort of responsiblity toward the fans? Under his leadership the team was struggling, and as for prospects, the cupboard was bare. Not exactly a rosy future for the fans who would be left with this mess long after he retired on the other side of the globe.

Mats could have agreed to go to a contender, where his presence may have actually accomplished something, and then come back to Toronto the following year, where he would have been welcomed back with open arms. We could have had a first round pick and another prospect. Instead, we got nothing, and his decision to excercise his NTC rights ensured that we played just well enough to not get a lottery pick. In order to get Luke, we had to give up a 2nd and 3rd pick.

The Leaf tatoo he claimed to have on his heart was made with disappearing ink.

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05-19-2009, 01:19 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by bleeney View Post
Gilmour hated losing. The team was in disarray, going in the wrong direction, and the best thing for the team was to rebuild. His moving on was the best thing for him, for the Leafs, and ultimately for the fans.

As for your last comment, don't you think Sundin had some sort of responsiblity toward the fans? Under his leadership the team was struggling, and as for prospects, the cupboard was bare. Not exactly a rosy future for the fans who would be left with this mess long after he retired on the other side of the globe.

Mats could have agreed to go to a contender, where his presence may have actually accomplished something, and then come back to Toronto the following year, where he would have been welcomed back with open arms. We could have had a first round pick and another prospect. Instead, we got nothing, and his decision to excercise his NTC rights ensured that we played just well enough to not get a lottery pick. In order to get Luke, we had to give up a 2nd and 3rd pick.

The Leaf tatoo he claimed to have on his heart was made with disappearing ink.
As a hockey player, Mats probably felt staying with the team and helping out as a player on the ice was a bigger contribution than leaving, i.e. throwing in the towel with this organization after 14 years here. I don't believe most athletes think about their situations like armchair GMs tend to, nor can I think of athletes ever requesting to leave their teams for the sake of a team rebuild, so I can't blame Sundin for not doing the same.

And as far as the Leafs not getting a lottery pick because of Sundin staying, well no one held a gun to their head to get them to trade up for Schenn, and the Leafs botch the tank job every year anyway, so if you want to be angry with Sundin for us holding the 7 pick in 2008, let's spread that hate around to Fletcher who hired a guy like Ron Wilson, Ron Wilson for keeping the team in mediocrity, and Brian Burke for reinforcing the team with Gerber and Hamilton at the deadline. Because we're in the exact same limbo as before.

As far as Sundin ultimately leaving here, the Leafs tried to ship him out again even as he was due to be a UFA, to Montreal of all damned places. Maybe as a Leaf of over a decade, playing for an arch rival didn't appeal to Sundin? Fletcher was an idiot anyway and most things he touched turned sour this past summer. His lack of a concrete offer to Sundin in the fall also suggested whatever interest he said he had in Sundin returning was not sincere. Obviously feelings were hurt and in order to return to the NHL, Mats had to go elsewhere.

In Gilmour and Ray Bourque type situations, the players trade requests are usually motivated by their own personal agendas and have very little to do with what they feel is good for their ex-team going forward. I doubt it crossed Gilmour's mind how Sullivan, McCauley and Smith would fare in Toronto.

And as a great Leaf, Doug Gilmour the free agent decided to sign with our division rival Chicago Blackhawks the first chance he got. It's funny to me how one guy is villified as a traitor for staying here and refusing to go to a rival, while the captain who requests to leave in the first sign of trouble and then goes to sign with a division rival is somehow held up as a great Leaf leader.

**** that. Gilmour ran away when the going got tough and didn't bother looking back. Sundin went down with the ship.

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Old
05-19-2009, 01:21 AM
  #115
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Mats Sundin!
Mats Sundin!
Mats Sundin!
Mats Sundin!
Mats Sundin!
Mats Sundin!
goooooooooooooooooo....MATS!

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05-19-2009, 01:52 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Last time I checked, it wasn't a player's responsibility to make sure his organization got compensation for him when leaving.
Since Sundin didn't feel any obligation to the Leafs upon his leaving, and thus ensured he left them with nothing by his actions.. Then why is it that so many feel the Leafs organization is now obligated to honour his service or jersey?

Last time I checked, it wasn't an organizations obligation that a departing player was honoured after his leaving.

MLSE asked Mats to accept a trade in the act of doing business in hopes of improving the team for the future... Mats told them to go "F themselves", he could care less what they wanted, and refused to go and not his problem the rebuild will be prolonged. Now that act of betrayal to his former bosses needs to be rewarded by his jersey proudly hanging from the rafters forever. Seems a tad bit hypocritical if you ask me.

Isn't this a two way street here an eye for an eye?


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05-19-2009, 02:12 AM
  #117
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It's not worth the hassle guys, just put the Mats' haters on ignore and move on. They will always try to pick apart anything to somehow try to demean what he did. When the fact is a case can be made that he was the best Leaf ever. How many guys could turn Hoglund into almost a 30 goal player? Mats never whined or complained, he always owned up to it when the team didn't play well, he was a class act.

I was upset that he signed with Vancouver - but it had everything to do with me hating Vancouver, I was actually hoping he went to the NYR. The guy clearly wanted to be a Leaf, I mean when a guy cries in his game back to the point he has trouble taking a faceoff I just don't understand how people can accuse him of trying to screw the Leafs or somehow not caring.

The biggest knock on Mats Sundin has always been his optimism, he always believed in the Leafs even when no one else could. I would say the Leafs shouldn't honour his number. But instead that they should make an exception and retire it along with Keon's.

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05-19-2009, 06:35 AM
  #118
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It's not worth the hassle guys, just put the Mats' haters on ignore and move on. They will always try to pick apart anything to somehow try to demean what he did. When the fact is a case can be made that he was the best Leaf ever. How many guys could turn Hoglund into almost a 30 goal player? Mats never whined or complained, he always owned up to it when the team didn't play well, he was a class act.

I was upset that he signed with Vancouver - but it had everything to do with me hating Vancouver, I was actually hoping he went to the NYR. The guy clearly wanted to be a Leaf, I mean when a guy cries in his game back to the point he has trouble taking a faceoff I just don't understand how people can accuse him of trying to screw the Leafs or somehow not caring.

The biggest knock on Mats Sundin has always been his optimism, he always believed in the Leafs even when no one else could. I would say the Leafs shouldn't honour his number. But instead that they should make an exception and retire it along with Keon's.
bravo.......could not have said it better myself

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05-19-2009, 09:17 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Since Sundin didn't feel any obligation to the Leafs upon his leaving, and thus ensured he left them with nothing by his actions.. Tthen why is it that so many feel the Leafs organization is now obligated to honour his service or jersey?

Last time I checked, it wasn't an organizations obligation that a departing player was honoured after his leaving.

MLSE asked Mats to accept a trade in the act of doing business in hopes of improving the team for the future... Mats told them to go "F themselves", he could care less what they wanted, he refuses to go. Now that act of betrayal to his former bosses needs to be rewarded by his jersey proudly hanging from the rafters forever. Seems a tad bit hypocritical if you ask me.

Isn't this a two way street here an eye for an eye?

It's not an obligation on the part of the Leafs to honour him, but they will chose to do it no matter how much you don't want it to happen.

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05-19-2009, 09:53 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by teamsundin View Post
It's not worth the hassle guys, just put the Mats' haters on ignore and move on. They will always try to pick apart anything to somehow try to demean what he did. When the fact is a case can be made that he was the best Leaf ever. How many guys could turn Hoglund into almost a 30 goal player? Mats never whined or complained, he always owned up to it when the team didn't play well, he was a class act.

I was upset that he signed with Vancouver - but it had everything to do with me hating Vancouver, I was actually hoping he went to the NYR. The guy clearly wanted to be a Leaf, I mean when a guy cries in his game back to the point he has trouble taking a faceoff I just don't understand how people can accuse him of trying to screw the Leafs or somehow not caring.

The biggest knock on Mats Sundin has always been his optimism, he always believed in the Leafs even when no one else could. I would say the Leafs shouldn't honour his number. But instead that they should make an exception and retire it along with Keon's.
Holy smokes! Now you want to retire his number? Why? What has he done?

Has he ever led the Leafs to a Stanley Cup? No.
How many First All Star teams was he named to? None.
What major trophies did he win? None.
Did he ever hit the 50 goal mark? No.
Did he ever get 100 pts? No.

He was a point per game player. In 13 seasons with the Leafs, he managed to exceed 80 points only four times! During that time he was on average 32 points behind the NHL's scoring leader. There was however one area where he ranked ahead of his peers: Career earnings. How he managed to earn more money than Forsberg and Yzerman is a mystery for the ages. I'd take either of these guys over Sundin in a heartbeat.

Retire his number?

When current players wear the numbers of Clancy, Conacher, Apps, Kennedy, Mahovlich, Sittler and Keon, all of whom accomplished a hell of a lot more than Sundin, it's mind-boggling to even suggest that Sundin's #13 be retired.

His #13 will one day hang in the rafters, but there are many faithful Leaf fans who will not remember him with the same type of reverence we have for the others.

Here's a shot former captain Teeder Kennedy (five Stanley Cups and a Hart trophy) dropping the gloves with Gordie Howe. Gordie Howe! Most players around the league were terrified of him. He was the strongest, toughest, and meanest SOB in the game. But that was Kennedy; a do-anything-to-win leader who accomplished far more than Sundin ever did. He is much more deserving of having his number retired than Sundin.
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05-19-2009, 10:13 AM
  #121
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he loved Toronto (like Sundin) the team was going nowhere. He saw that, asked to be traded and by doing that he made sure that we got something to build a future on. It was a good deal for both teams.
He asked to be traded for his own wellbeing, not Toronto's.

Remember last season he got hurt and then played while he could barely walk until the Leafs were mathematically eliminated and then shut it down for the year? It shows heart and people forget about that..

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05-19-2009, 10:41 AM
  #122
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It's not an obligation on the part of the Leafs to honour him, but they will chose to do it no matter how much you don't want it to happen.
Personally I couldn't care less one way or the other.

Simply pointing out the Sundin Fanboy hypocritical position..

Sundin collected $85+ million dollars from Leafs organization for his services rendered and when asked by Ownership to move on, and allow them to trade him in order to rebuild for the future, he refused.

The Sundin Idol worshiping position is " Its not his responsibility to make sure his organization got compensation for him when leaving". Fine, right your are.

But now that he chose what was best for himself, those same Sundin fans want to know when will his Jersey be proudly honoured in the rafters, despite burning bridges as he departed, and defying ownership wishes. The same ownership group now that was just left empty handed should get working on that ceremony to honour Mats.

Its always what is best for Sundin.

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05-19-2009, 10:53 AM
  #123
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People need to get it over their heads. No one player is important than the team.

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05-19-2009, 11:01 AM
  #124
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He asked to be traded for his own wellbeing, not Toronto's.
It's amazing how some peoples' minds work isn't it? The guy who asks to be traded is held in higher esteem than the guy who doesn't and the guy who asks to be traded is doing so "for the good of the team" and it has nothing to do with playoff money or his future contract.

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05-19-2009, 11:15 AM
  #125
Stephen
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Personally I couldn't care less one way or the other.

Simply pointing out the Sundin Fanboy hypocritical position..

Sundin collected $85+ million dollars from Leafs organization for his services rendered and when asked by Ownership to move on, and allow them to trade him in order to rebuild for the future, he refused.

The Sundin Idol worshiping position is " Its not his responsibility to make sure his organization got compensation for him when leaving". Fine, right your are.

But now that he chose what was best for himself, those same Sundin fans want to know when will his Jersey be proudly honoured in the rafters, despite burning bridges as he departed, and defying ownership wishes. The same ownership group now that was just left empty handed should get working on that ceremony to honour Mats.

Its always what is best for Sundin.
Seriously, is Mats leaving your first experience with unrestricted free agency?

And ownership's wishes? Last time I checked they had a legally binding document which gave Sundin the right to refuse a trade. They willingly gave that to him in writing.

Also, I will go out on a limb and say what MLSE did to Sundin in regards to trying to move him at the deadline and before July 1st as unprecedented and completely unbefitting a quality organization.

We have seen the Colorado Avalanche, Dallas Stars and Ottawa Senators miss the playoffs this season. The Avs were dreadful and the Stars and Sens were roughly as bad as we were last season. Did these organizations even think about, let alone attempt to trade Joe Sakic, Mike Modano or Daniel Alfredsson? The answer is no.

Could you imagine how ludicrous a situation it would be for the Avs to go and approach Joe Sakic about a trade to Detroit, Dallas doing the same with Modano, or the Ottawa Senators approaching Alfredsson for a trade to Montreal? It's just inconceivable that this would be done, because it shouldn't be. Rebuild be damned. And yet, the Toronto Maple Leafs somehow do the unthinkable and try to trade their long time captain to a division rival.

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