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Kaberle to NYR

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Old
05-19-2009, 05:57 AM
  #101
Richter35
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Originally Posted by TML Rebuild View Post
To NYR: Kaberle
To TOR: Roszival, Sauer, 2009 1st Round Pick
give us back our second in the deal and its good.

sure rozy doesn't have the potential to be as great as kabs and is signed for a little more but you're moving up 30 spots in the draft and are getting a solid prospect who could be on your 3rd pairing maybe by the end of next season.

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05-19-2009, 06:01 AM
  #102
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Done!
Ih8therangers...


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05-19-2009, 07:14 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Richter35 View Post
give us back our second in the deal and its good.

sure rozy doesn't have the potential to be as great as kabs and is signed for a little more but you're moving up 30 spots in the draft and are getting a solid prospect who could be on your 3rd pairing maybe by the end of next season.
we get a decent pick, and salary dumps for Kaberle ...could be on your 3rd pairing ...We have more than enough 3rd pairing players.

Kaberle will bring in a blue chipper, else not be traded.

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Old
05-19-2009, 07:34 AM
  #104
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What about...


Drury, Sanguinetti/Del Zotto, 1st in 09 + (???)

for

Kaberle


Kaberle should be able to get the 1st and the top prospect easily but if we take on Drury and his contract NYR has to add...any thoughts what they could add?


Last edited by DougGilmour93: 05-19-2009 at 08:27 AM.
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Old
05-19-2009, 07:48 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by The Swamp View Post
I think the Leafs would be pleased to take Gomez without the 1st round pick, but then Toronto would most likely need to add more unless Ranger fans have gone "insane" and think Gomez for Kaberle straight up is fair value. Most likely would have to be something like Kaberle and Poni for Gomez, and even that is still probably an unfair trade.
Kaberle for Gomez? Yeah right bud!

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05-19-2009, 07:53 AM
  #106
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I'm not a Rangers fan, I'm in Toronto. And I don't think you understand my argument at all. It gets tiresome to read Leaf fans post offensive numbers all of the time when the team is terrible defensively and loses a lot of hockey games because of it.

Toskala was brutal this year. He was much better the previous season but the Leafs were still bad defensively as a team. And a lot of it has to do with the forwards.

The Leafs blue-line was bad in their own end two years ago because everyone with the exception of Hal Gill was an offence-first d-man. Kaberle, McCabe, Kubina, White, Coliacovo, Stralman, none of these guys react instinctively to defence the way a pure defensive d-man would.

Which places the onus on the forwards to help out. Not every shift is going to be about scoring goals. Sometimes you're going to have to come back deep in your own end to help out your d-men, and otherwise try to keep the play to the perimeter and the shots on goal from long distances or bad angles.

As a group I would say that the Rangers blue-line is less than the Leafs blue-line.
ut
But at least their forwards are willing to do some grunt work in the defensive zone, whereas too many Leafs just go through the motions. They go to a spot where "they're supposed to go" but don't go there with any conviction or purpose.

Gomez has played his entire career in defensive systems and has been successful in them. He is substantially better than any Leaf forward at this time, as are Drury and Dubinsky, regardless of any purely offensive statistics that may be cited.
Funny how you put Kaberle down but yet you are trying to hype up Gomez. Gomez may be the Leafs best forward but Kaberle would easily become the Rangers best dman. If Gomez is that good than he should stay with the Rangers and I would be happy to keep Tomas Kaberle around.

Ryan Callahan and 1st round pick for Tomas Kaberle

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Old
05-19-2009, 08:51 AM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
What about...


Drury, Sanguinetti/Del Zotto, 1st in 09 + (???)

for

Kaberle


Kaberle should be able to get the 1st and the top prospect easily but if we take on Drury and his contract NYR has to add...any thoughts what they could add?
nothing. you're getting a first and a top prospect. drury's deal is only for 3 years and he's a better option at center than anything you currently have. sure, he's way overpaid but you're getting a lot out of a deal like this.

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Old
05-19-2009, 08:59 AM
  #108
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But we can deal Kaberle any where else in get the same type of deal without taking on a large sum of salary...

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Old
05-19-2009, 10:00 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by TheHotRock View Post
nothing. you're getting a first and a top prospect. drury's deal is only for 3 years and he's a better option at center than anything you currently have. sure, he's way overpaid but you're getting a lot out of a deal like this.
You would love to get rid of Drury and that 7 mill cap hit wouldnt you? Theres other ways of getting a centre like or better than drury, especially without a 7 mill cap hit.

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Old
05-19-2009, 10:07 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by mcphllp View Post
You would love to get rid of Drury and that 7 mill cap hit wouldnt you? Theres other ways of getting a centre like or better than drury, especially without a 7 mill cap hit.
I would rather get rid of Gomez to be honest. Drury can be bought out next summer if need be. I would gladly do Gomez for Blake, as someone suggested earlier.

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Old
05-19-2009, 10:15 AM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
What about...


Drury, Sanguinetti/Del Zotto, 1st in 09 + (???)

for

Kaberle


Kaberle should be able to get the 1st and the top prospect easily but if we take on Drury and his contract NYR has to add...any thoughts what they could add?
yea, nothing more, agree with HotRock, thats enough

and I'd do this deal

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Old
05-19-2009, 11:02 AM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
What about...


Drury, Sanguinetti/Del Zotto, 1st in 09 + (???)

for

Kaberle


Kaberle should be able to get the 1st and the top prospect easily but if we take on Drury and his contract NYR has to add...any thoughts what they could add?

NYR has to add NADA to this. In fact I am not sure Sather would touch this. Kaberle is worse in his own end that Roszival is (and Ros is bad enough). The 2 of them on the same backline would be ... porous to say the least.

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Old
05-19-2009, 11:04 AM
  #113
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We're not trading Del Zotto unless it's part of a package for a legitimate first line forward.

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Old
05-19-2009, 11:39 AM
  #114
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The reason I compare him and other players to the rangers is because this is a forum discussing a trade between the two teams. So while you like saying the leafs having nothing to be excited about execpt for Schenn I showed you why we absolutely do have things to be excited about. Why exactly is Grabo not a team player? Because he's a flashy player? What exactly makes Gomez a number one center? Just because he's paid like one doesn't make it so. Considering your post after this one you talk about trading Kaberle for Gomez straight up and that you lost your head in thinking about it yeah you've mentioned him in previous posts and again in this one.

Stajan 1.75 million UFA at year end 76Gp 15g 40a 55pts
Gomez 7.357 million cap hit 6 more years 77gp 16g 42a 58pts

I think I'll stick with Stajan thanks

As for Kaberle I'll show a few examples or comparissons

30 Kaberle career numbers 738gp 73g 360a 433pts cap hit 4.25
29 Campbell career numbers 493gp 42g 205a 247pts cap hit 7.14
28 Hainsey career numbers 326gp 26g 98a 124ptd cap hit 4.5
35 Rafalski career numbers 692gp 67g 358a 425pts cap hit 6
30 Markov career numbers 571gp 74g 255a 329pts cap hit 5.75
35 Hamrlik career numbers 1,157gp 142g 422a 564pts cap hit 5.5
31 Streit career numbers 279gp 41g 124a 165pts cap hit 4.1 more of a shooter though
30 Rozcival career numbers 555gp 54g 149a 203pts cap hit 5
30 Morris career numbers 793gp 76g 264a 340pts cap hit 3.95 UFA
34 Timmonen career numbers 730gp 90g 298a 388pts cap hit 6.333
32 Boyle career numbers 600gp 92g 257a 349pts cap hit 6.667

I don't see how any of these guys are hands down any better then Kaberle as I feel they all play a similar style game IMO and these guys are considered among the best in the game. How do they differ from Kaberle. I'm not overating Kaberle in any way. You my friend under value him. I tried to use guys in his same age range to make it as balanced stats wise as possible even though some of the guys simply haven't played as much. Feel free to show me why he's overated in any way.
Perhaps, I've phrased this wrong or not made the distinction clearly, but Kaberle is very over-rated by the Leafs community. People still believe he can fetch a package of Jeff Carter and a 1st round pick or a team's top rated prospect plus a 1st round pick. Kaberle is a top 20-30 defenseman in the league, but his defensive zone play and softness are very suspect. I have watched him numerous times cough up the puck in our zone or put a pass tape to tape on the oppositions stick. He makes too many misguided decisions in our zone to be considered an elite defenseman. Based on numbers alone Kaberle is considered a good player, but he doesn't offer the same overall game that Campbell, Rafalski, Timonen and Markov offer. Campbell is always a threat to score with his speed, shot, and vision, as well as lay people out. Rafalski has won 3 stanley cups and is much smarter in his own zone than Kaberle, while still offering what Kaberle has to offer in the offensive zone; plus he shoots the puck. Markov is similar to Kaberle in terms of being a team's powerplay quarterback and is a little soft, but he has a rocket shot from the point. Timonen is capable in both ends of the ice, and when he went down to injury in the 2008 playoffs for Philly it was evident how much he helped that team offensively on breakouts, defensively in logging minutes and containing skilled players, and on the powerplay with his shot from the point, breakout passes, and speed from the back-end. Boyle, on the other hand, is much like Kaberle in terms of being more of a one-dimensional player. The difference between them however, is that Boyle has a lethal shot from the point. As you can see from all those comparisons, although Kaberle is a talented offensive defenseman who can stretch a team's defense with his passing, he does not shoot the puck enough as the other guys, or play well enough in his own zone for him to be considered "great". He has a lot of trouble dealing with bigger opponents in the corners and in front of the net and can get rattled from a hit early in the game. The salary on Kaberle is not the over-rated part; he is by far the best paid player for what he offers, but that does not mean he is not over-rated. You concentrate too heavily on numbers, but if you took the time to watch these other defenseman play and what they offer compared to Kaberle, you'd see why they were better players overall. I'm not some fan bashing on Kaberle because I hate the Leafs (I live in Toronto), I just see him for what he's worth.

Why is Grabo not a team player? Not at all because he's flashy, but because he does not pass the puck and instead tries to take the game 1 on 5. He turns the puck over in the neutral zone, and causes our defense to face several odd-man rushes. He is not a team player because he takes selfish penalties, such as slashing or hooking calls because someone just stripped him of the puck. Why is he not a team player? Because he does not play both ends of the ice consistently and looks to get ahead of the play for a breakaway before ensuring the puck is out of his own zone. As a center that is not his responsibility either. And as a joke, he is not a team player because he pushes referees so he can fight his own war with the kostitsyns and causes the league to suspend him for 3 games


Last edited by The Wyzerhood: 05-19-2009 at 11:46 AM.
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Old
05-19-2009, 02:10 PM
  #115
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Perhaps, I've phrased this wrong or not made the distinction clearly, but Kaberle is very over-rated by the Leafs community. People still believe he can fetch a package of Jeff Carter and a 1st round pick or a team's top rated prospect plus a 1st round pick. Kaberle is a top 20-30 defenseman in the league, but his defensive zone play and softness are very suspect. I have watched him numerous times cough up the puck in our zone or put a pass tape to tape on the oppositions stick. He makes too many misguided decisions in our zone to be considered an elite defenseman. Based on numbers alone Kaberle is considered a good player, but he doesn't offer the same overall game that Campbell, Rafalski, Timonen and Markov offer. Campbell is always a threat to score with his speed, shot, and vision, as well as lay people out. Rafalski has won 3 stanley cups and is much smarter in his own zone than Kaberle, while still offering what Kaberle has to offer in the offensive zone; plus he shoots the puck. Markov is similar to Kaberle in terms of being a team's powerplay quarterback and is a little soft, but he has a rocket shot from the point. Timonen is capable in both ends of the ice, and when he went down to injury in the 2008 playoffs for Philly it was evident how much he helped that team offensively on breakouts, defensively in logging minutes and containing skilled players, and on the powerplay with his shot from the point, breakout passes, and speed from the back-end. Boyle, on the other hand, is much like Kaberle in terms of being more of a one-dimensional player. The difference between them however, is that Boyle has a lethal shot from the point. As you can see from all those comparisons, although Kaberle is a talented offensive defenseman who can stretch a team's defense with his passing, he does not shoot the puck enough as the other guys, or play well enough in his own zone for him to be considered "great". He has a lot of trouble dealing with bigger opponents in the corners and in front of the net and can get rattled from a hit early in the game. The salary on Kaberle is not the over-rated part; he is by far the best paid player for what he offers, but that does not mean he is not over-rated. You concentrate too heavily on numbers, but if you took the time to watch these other defenseman play and what they offer compared to Kaberle, you'd see why they were better players overall. I'm not some fan bashing on Kaberle because I hate the Leafs (I live in Toronto), I just see him for what he's worth.

Why is Grabo not a team player? Not at all because he's flashy, but because he does not pass the puck and instead tries to take the game 1 on 5. He turns the puck over in the neutral zone, and causes our defense to face several odd-man rushes. He is not a team player because he takes selfish penalties, such as slashing or hooking calls because someone just stripped him of the puck. Why is he not a team player? Because he does not play both ends of the ice consistently and looks to get ahead of the play for a breakaway before ensuring the puck is out of his own zone. As a center that is not his responsibility either. And as a joke, he is not a team player because he pushes referees so he can fight his own war with the kostitsyns and causes the league to suspend him for 3 games
First off the argument about Grabo I just dont' agree with. That's simply the type of game he plays. The only real problem with Grabs is that he's not elite like the other guys that tend to do it. I.E Kovalchuk or Ovechkin. He simply needs to learn how to play in the NHL it was after all his first full season and seems to have gotten better near the end of the year. I think really only time will tell with him but I think it's a little early to call him selfish.

Using cup rings to say a player is better is kind of useless IMO Rafalski also plays for the Red Wings. I could have a cup ring if I played for them. He also played for the Devils during their peak. I used those guys are the closest equivalent to Kaberle. Some are better and some are worse. Kaberle does turn over the puck but he isn't even the worst in the players I've mentioned. Markov without even checking I know has a higher turn over rate them him. Yes he turns over the puck but everyone does. Saying that he's between top 20 and 30 if that's the case still makes him a legit number one dman on ten teams. That makes him very much one of the best and worth a good bit. His contract is very relivant in a cap world and makes him appealing to teams because of it. I'm not using stats as the end all I'm just showing you that his numbers are up there with the best. I know what your saying about the Kaberle for Carter and a 1st stuff. It got real old especially at the deadline having guys use that as a comparison for all trades involving him. Although, I do feel he does carry more trade value then you. I would assume his value somewhere at a 1st and a top prospect. That doesn't mean their first from last year but a guy with a good shot at an NHL career. You also need to not over value the first round pick or prospect. They are very much unproven commodities. Kaberle isn't and any team would know exactly what their getting with him. I could also see a young roster player and a first. Not a young elite guy just a young guy with some good upside. I simply don't see how in any way he's overated. I think guys are simply hoping for the sky with the trade of Kaberle and the thought of what we almost had drives fans crazy so they simply hope to have that happen again. A Carter and a 1st really isn't a stretch of a trade. What people need to remember is that Carter wasn't really anything special until after the deadline. Before that he was just a decent young player. He simply exploded in the playoffs and continued his great pace this year.

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Old
05-19-2009, 07:50 PM
  #116
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Funny how you put Kaberle down but yet you are trying to hype up Gomez. Gomez may be the Leafs best forward but Kaberle would easily become the Rangers best dman. If Gomez is that good than he should stay with the Rangers and I would be happy to keep Tomas Kaberle around.

Ryan Callahan and 1st round pick for Tomas Kaberle
Demonstrate where I criticize Kaberle.

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Old
05-19-2009, 09:17 PM
  #117
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Kaberle for Del Zotto and a pick.

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05-19-2009, 11:28 PM
  #118
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First off the argument about Grabo I just dont' agree with. That's simply the type of game he plays. The only real problem with Grabs is that he's not elite like the other guys that tend to do it. I.E Kovalchuk or Ovechkin. He simply needs to learn how to play in the NHL it was after all his first full season and seems to have gotten better near the end of the year. I think really only time will tell with him but I think it's a little early to call him selfish.

Using cup rings to say a player is better is kind of useless IMO Rafalski also plays for the Red Wings. I could have a cup ring if I played for them. He also played for the Devils during their peak. I used those guys are the closest equivalent to Kaberle. Some are better and some are worse. Kaberle does turn over the puck but he isn't even the worst in the players I've mentioned. Markov without even checking I know has a higher turn over rate them him. Yes he turns over the puck but everyone does. Saying that he's between top 20 and 30 if that's the case still makes him a legit number one dman on ten teams. That makes him very much one of the best and worth a good bit. His contract is very relivant in a cap world and makes him appealing to teams because of it. I'm not using stats as the end all I'm just showing you that his numbers are up there with the best. I know what your saying about the Kaberle for Carter and a 1st stuff. It got real old especially at the deadline having guys use that as a comparison for all trades involving him. Although, I do feel he does carry more trade value then you. I would assume his value somewhere at a 1st and a top prospect. That doesn't mean their first from last year but a guy with a good shot at an NHL career. You also need to not over value the first round pick or prospect. They are very much unproven commodities. Kaberle isn't and any team would know exactly what their getting with him. I could also see a young roster player and a first. Not a young elite guy just a young guy with some good upside. I simply don't see how in any way he's overated. I think guys are simply hoping for the sky with the trade of Kaberle and the thought of what we almost had drives fans crazy so they simply hope to have that happen again. A Carter and a 1st really isn't a stretch of a trade. What people need to remember is that Carter wasn't really anything special until after the deadline. Before that he was just a decent young player. He simply exploded in the playoffs and continued his great pace this year.
First off, the cup ring thing about Rafalski was just an add in, but the point I'm making that you're missing is that Kaberle is not as complete a player as a few of the ones you've listed. You say he's better based on point production, but offensive numbers only mean so much. I will agree that Kaberle has cut down on his turnovers, but I can still remember timely turnovers that have cost us games. I'll take you back to San Jose when he just fell on the blue line and gave up a short handed marker to Joe Pavelski that gave the game to the Sharks this past year. He did it in a big game back in the playoffs, but he was much younger then. Fact remains, he is over rated because people really only focus on the offensive aspect of the game. When considering great defenseman, you have to consider offensive prowess and defensive capabilities. For example my time in Junior A, there was a kid who could do wonders with stretch passes and could quarterback a powerplay, but when it came down to crunch time, he was never on the ice for the penalty kill or the last minute of the game because pressure got to him and he had trouble moving people from in front of the net because he was soft. A defenseman who is one dimensional can only be so good, but one with pure offensive talent like Kaberle gets more consideration for being a great defenseman than a shut down guy like Regehr, because people notice offense more. You may disagree with me on that, but the majority of fans rarely notice how well a defenseman plays in his zone, or whether he has an active stick, shows poise with the puck, or takes people out of the high traffic areas. Other coaches and scouts notice this, and it's not until someone points this out to the recreational fan, do they start to take notice. I've been watching Kaberle play in the league for years, and I can definitely say that he has not made enough of an effort to solidify his strength and defensive game. People focus too much on offensive numbers and how he helps the team out with playmaking, and do not take time to consider his flaws. Hence, this is why I believe he is over-rated.

Grabovski on the other hand, has too much trouble playing in a team system. It's not something that can really be taught. Kovalchuk and Ovechkin can play that style because they are wingers and are dangerous to score wherever they are on the ice. Grabovski does not have the same lethal shot as either of those two, and isn't as talented as them to take the game 1 on 5, yet he consistently tries to night in and out. Grabovski is still young, but not as young as you'd think at 25. As a player, your responsibility is to develop into a quality two-way player, and this holds more true for a center. To be a pivot, it is vital to have this two-way game and the ability to sacrifice, which Grabovski never shows. It's all about him on the ice, evident from his feud with the Kostitsyns. He keeps his team mates out of the plays, and reminds me of a more talented Jason Blake who has the speed but is rather selfish with the puck. Nothing has changed in his game, from the time I've viewed film on him from his days in Hamilton, still the same guy who doesn't seem to have hope of changing. He has great offensive talent, but is not willing to sacrifice himself to make a play, nor does he ever fully trust his team mates.

Carter is a completely different situation all together, he's always been a complete player who can be used in all game situations. It wasn't until the 2008 playoffs and the 2009 season that the points came together. If you had watched Philadelphia before that, you would have known that this kid was something special; it's no surprise he's lighting up the league now. It'd be crazy to consider Carter and a 1st for Kaberle now because Carter is 24 years old and very much proven. I understand your argument of a pick being unproven, because I have always supported the fact that the draft is no science; you never know what you're going to get.

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05-20-2009, 06:23 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by The Swamp View Post
First off, the cup ring thing about Rafalski was just an add in, but the point I'm making that you're missing is that Kaberle is not as complete a player as a few of the ones you've listed. You say he's better based on point production, but offensive numbers only mean so much. I will agree that Kaberle has cut down on his turnovers, but I can still remember timely turnovers that have cost us games. I'll take you back to San Jose when he just fell on the blue line and gave up a short handed marker to Joe Pavelski that gave the game to the Sharks this past year. He did it in a big game back in the playoffs, but he was much younger then. Fact remains, he is over rated because people really only focus on the offensive aspect of the game. When considering great defenseman, you have to consider offensive prowess and defensive capabilities. For example my time in Junior A, there was a kid who could do wonders with stretch passes and could quarterback a powerplay, but when it came down to crunch time, he was never on the ice for the penalty kill or the last minute of the game because pressure got to him and he had trouble moving people from in front of the net because he was soft. A defenseman who is one dimensional can only be so good, but one with pure offensive talent like Kaberle gets more consideration for being a great defenseman than a shut down guy like Regehr, because people notice offense more. You may disagree with me on that, but the majority of fans rarely notice how well a defenseman plays in his zone, or whether he has an active stick, shows poise with the puck, or takes people out of the high traffic areas. Other coaches and scouts notice this, and it's not until someone points this out to the recreational fan, do they start to take notice. I've been watching Kaberle play in the league for years, and I can definitely say that he has not made enough of an effort to solidify his strength and defensive game. People focus too much on offensive numbers and how he helps the team out with playmaking, and do not take time to consider his flaws. Hence, this is why I believe he is over-rated.

Grabovski on the other hand, has too much trouble playing in a team system. It's not something that can really be taught. Kovalchuk and Ovechkin can play that style because they are wingers and are dangerous to score wherever they are on the ice. Grabovski does not have the same lethal shot as either of those two, and isn't as talented as them to take the game 1 on 5, yet he consistently tries to night in and out. Grabovski is still young, but not as young as you'd think at 25. As a player, your responsibility is to develop into a quality two-way player, and this holds more true for a center. To be a pivot, it is vital to have this two-way game and the ability to sacrifice, which Grabovski never shows. It's all about him on the ice, evident from his feud with the Kostitsyns. He keeps his team mates out of the plays, and reminds me of a more talented Jason Blake who has the speed but is rather selfish with the puck. Nothing has changed in his game, from the time I've viewed film on him from his days in Hamilton, still the same guy who doesn't seem to have hope of changing. He has great offensive talent, but is not willing to sacrifice himself to make a play, nor does he ever fully trust his team mates.

Carter is a completely different situation all together, he's always been a complete player who can be used in all game situations. It wasn't until the 2008 playoffs and the 2009 season that the points came together. If you had watched Philadelphia before that, you would have known that this kid was something special; it's no surprise he's lighting up the league now. It'd be crazy to consider Carter and a 1st for Kaberle now because Carter is 24 years old and very much proven. I understand your argument of a pick being unproven, because I have always supported the fact that the draft is no science; you never know what you're going to get.
There's no need to keep going back and forth on this because we both seem pretty locked into our opinions. In no way am I saying that Kaberle is a superstar but he's is top 20, 30 in your words which makes him very much legit. Saying a player can get more then you think doesn't mean he's being over rated it's means he's being over valued. I also clearly stated in my other post with the players I listed is that some of them are better and some aren't. What I'm trying to get across in my argument you also seem to be misunderstanding. Because Campell shoots the puck more then Kaberle does that make him worth 3 million more a season? I don't think so. Yes Kaberle has had some bad mistakes in his day and will have more regardless of where he plays. So will every other player. Two giveaways doesn't make a player bad. If Vesa had made the save in the game against the Sharks you wouldn't even remember it today. Falling also has zero to do with his defensive ability. You need to look at it in the sense that eventhough he fell he still tried to make a play to correct it but it failed and that stuff happens. I'm 31 so I've seen my fair share of hockey in my day. When I did play hockey I was a defensive defenceman so I very much notice and appreciate the defensive aspect of the game. The reason I pointed out the offensive stats is clearly because Kaberle is an offensive defenceman as are all of the other players I posted with him. I have never said he's great defensively. I have never said he's physical. G.M's and coachs counter his defensive game with his linemate. You balance them out.

You also missed my point on Carter. I'm not saying they could get Carter and a 1st for Carter and if you go back and read what I wrote you'd see that. Carter had the pieces in place when the leafs were rumored to be able to get him. The thing is he hadn't put it together and could have simply ended up being another Stajan, Steen type of player. Today he is leaps and bounds ahead of them so yeah today we couldn't get Carter alone for Kaberle. What I was trying to say is maybe we could get say a Byfuglien and a 1st for Kaberle but he's now coming into his own so it may be a bad example. I just mean a guy that hasn't found his game yet but has upside if he can but is servicable if he can't.

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05-20-2009, 06:25 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by The Swamp View Post
First off, the cup ring thing about Rafalski was just an add in, but the point I'm making that you're missing is that Kaberle is not as complete a player as a few of the ones you've listed. You say he's better based on point production, but offensive numbers only mean so much. I will agree that Kaberle has cut down on his turnovers, but I can still remember timely turnovers that have cost us games.
Honestly, Rafalski is much worse defensively than Kaberle. If he wasn't on such a good team, he'd be exposed a lot more often. Did you see him duck a check going into the corner last night, and lose the puck? This is not a strength of his game. That really made me question your last post.

Anyways, I don't really get your point about turnovers. Kaberle has some, but they come as a function of him being relied upon to carry the puck through the neutral zone every rush. He's actually really good at threading a stretch pass and hitting the man, so its a bit disingenuous to complain about a few turnovers when you're paying a defenceman to create some chances.

Where he is weak is when he's pinned in his own zone, much like any offensive defenceman. He's not very physical, and if he has to move somebody away from the puck, he has some trouble. Still, when he gets the puck he consistently makes good decisions in getting it out of the zone, and he never panics when under pressure. He's also pretty sharp positionally, and knows where to go in order to break up a play. For an offensive defenceman, he's fairly solid defensively. I suspect that most of his bad rep comes from his non-physical play - big hitters seem to get more of a pass defensively, as was the case with McCabe. Kaberle was always better defensively than McCabe, but McCabe always seemed to get a pass until he really started to struggle..

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05-20-2009, 07:44 AM
  #121
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Let me preface this by saying that I like Kaberle, I think he's a fine offensive defenceman capable of 50+ points a year. Further I think that he would probably fit with the style that Torts wants to employ on a going forward basis and if we didn't have guys like Redden and Roszy I'd be in favor of looking into acquiring him.

However, I am not giving up a first rounder for this player.

Regardless of how good I think he is, he's on the wrong side of 30. He's got some years left no doubt, but one of the problems this Rangers organization has had for the last 20 years is trading away youngsters wit the HOPES that these players can continue to produce those same numbers here in NY.

The Cap has changed the way teams should be looking at these first rounders. These are assets that have increased in value as they are cheap once they do get to the NHL. Moving them along with one current NHLer (who's not that far behind Kaberle in terms of annual production) and a promising stay at home defender to me doesn't make sense.

None of the above mentions the fact that our BIGGEST need is not the need for offensive defenceman. Our biggest need is for a sniper, a legit #1 winger capable of 35+ goals. The addition of Kaberle doesn't address, in any way, the most lacking aspect of this Rangers team.

I like Kaberle, but I'll pass.

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05-20-2009, 12:31 PM
  #122
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The pricetag on Kaberle would be too steep for the Rangers. DZ, Grachev, Anisimov, Callahan and Dubinsky should be near untouchable, along with Hank and Staal. Trading for a 30+ years old d-man doesnt make much sense for the price it would take, especially in a cap era and with the cap constraints the Rangers have.

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05-20-2009, 12:38 PM
  #123
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Kaberle is the exact type of player you want with cap restraints. He brings so much to the table in reference to what you pay him. He should be making 6 million +

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05-20-2009, 12:46 PM
  #124
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Here we go, a disappointing Ranger loss in first round and the Ranger fans start looking for over-priced veterans to fix the problem... Kaberle would look great right along side last year's bust of an over-priced veteran, Wade Redden...

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05-20-2009, 12:48 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
Kaberle is the exact type of player you want with cap restraints. He brings so much to the table in reference to what you pay him. He should be making 6 million +
Then the leafs should keep him, no?

The Rangers have too many players making 6+ million that don't deserve it. Whether or not Kaberle is a good value, he's a luxury we can't afford. Plus, we have several prospects that may be able to fill that role (PP QB) in the coming years.

Yeah, Del Zotto, Sanguinetti and Gilroy may all flop, but given our cap situation, it makes sense to let them all try to win the job. Odds are one of them will pan out.

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