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But he doesn't have 12+ three of the last four years, which is what my challenge was.
My whole point was I knew that the only other players to accomplish the feat would be star defenseman. I'm not dumb enough to think Liles is worth the 8th overall pick (at least not in a draft this deep), but I feel a guy with 56 goals in 5 career NHL seasons is getting **** on with some of the comments made.
I think that further illustrates Shadow's point. Streit is seen as a top end offensive defenseman on these forums, while Liles continually gets pissed on for God knows why. This season Liles scored more goals than Pronger, Phaneuf, Rafalski, Seabrook, and Campbell, while potting the same number as Zidlicky and Markov. Liles is a 40 point defender who could easily push 50 on a good year, and only one time in his career has he scored less than 10 goals in a season. None of us are trying to say he's Bobby Orr, but he's been in very good company stats wise since he broke into the league. $4M for his role isn't bad considering what the market has been giving similar guys.
I think that further illustrates Shadow's point. Streit is seen as a top end offensive defenseman on these forums, while Liles continually gets pissed on for God knows why. This season Liles scored more goals than Pronger, Phaneuf, Rafalski, Seabrook, and Campbell, while potting the same number as Zidlicky and Markov. Liles is a 40 point defender who could easily push 50 on a good year, and only one time in his career has he scored less than 10 goals in a season. None of us are trying to say he's Bobby Orr, but he's been in very good company stats wise since he broke into the league. $4M for his role isn't bad considering what the market has been giving similar guys.
I'd like you to show me where anybody in this thread is "pissing on" Liles.
I'd like you to show me where anybody in this thread is "pissing on" Liles.
They're not. He's getting about $4 million a year and, while a good puck mover, is not the greatest defender. Not too many teams can take on that kind of salary. I think his value as a late first is possible given his offensive talent, but who knows.
Playing on Colorado currently isn't helping his trade value any.
I'd like you to show me where anybody in this thread is "pissing on" Liles.
I never said you were doing it, if that's what you're getting at.
While it may not be considered pissing on him, there has definitely been some run around and downplaying of him and his talents to perceive a low trade value. Knee Seeking Scud definitely took a stab at him, but it's easier to just laugh at him given his blatant homerism for everything Stars.
Pissed on may not be the best term to use here, but it definitely seems every time his name is brought up we see the same arguments: terrible contract, one-dimensional, doesn't score enough, can't play big minutes, too soft. There have been points where some of those could have been made, but he has made solid progress to his overall game and has continually responded to the knocks brought on him.
I'm not saying he's worth the 8th overall, not even close. I'm not trying to call him elite. I'm not saying he's better than Chara. I'm not saying he's ever going to be in the running for the Norris, nor am I saying he should be. My post above, in collaboration with Shadow, was to show what he actually brings in comparison to other (perceived) elite offensive defenders. I know no one's mind will be changed (probably ever) by pointing this out, it just gets old seeing the same double standard time after time.
I'd like you to show me where anybody in this thread is "pissing on" Liles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hlundqvist30
I think you're missing the point. Avalanche fans would clearly do it. Dallas fans wouldn't touch this. JM Liles is probably not even worth the 30th pick, let alone the 8th.
I'm not convinced that Liles would be able to fetch the 30th pick right now.
I'm certainly not "pissing" on him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Since when is saying a player can't return a first rounder in a trade "pissing on" the player?
Oh, and in answer to your question, I'm not particular happy today. I hope to feel better later on though.
Because he clearly said "worth". The whopping majority of players taken 30th overall don't even make an NHL career for themselves. Matt Corrente, Vladmir Millikan, Andy Rodgers, Shawn Belle, and Jim Slater are the players taken 30th overall from 2006-2002. Ever heard of any of them (aside from Slater, who sucks)? Didn't think so.
So, to suggest that a Liles isn't worth a pick that in all likely hood won't draft a player who'll develop into anything as close to level Liles is playing at is quite the idiotic thing to say. Hence, my comments.
I would rather keep Liles than trade him for anything less than a top 10 pick. He loves being in Colorado, and Colorado loves him. Remember he gave up his number so Paul Stastny could wear his fathers number 26, he called Rob Blake and asked permission if he could use the number 4.
Would another team give up a top 10 or even top 20 pick for him? Probably not, but thats ok. He's consistent: 30, 38, 20, 15, 28 are his ranking in defenseman scoring since he's entered the league. He was the 31st highest paid defenseman last season and will be the 26th highest paid defenseman next year. Those are hardly horrible numbers in terms of cap hit. And how many defenders have average 40 points per season over the past five seasons and come cheaper? Not many.
I would rather keep Liles than trade him for anything less than a top 10 pick. He loves being in Colorado, and Colorado loves him. Remember he gave up his number so Paul Stastny could wear his fathers number 26, he called Rob Blake and asked permission if he could use the number 4.
Would another team give up a top 10 or even top 20 pick for him? Probably not, but thats ok. He's consistent: 30, 38, 20, 15, 28 are his ranking in defenseman scoring since he's entered the league. He was the 31st highest paid defenseman last season and will be the 26th highest paid defenseman next year. Those are hardly horrible numbers in terms of cap hit. And how many defenders have average 40 points per season over the past five seasons and come cheaper? Not many.
I agree. Without Liles, our defence becomes even more slow and inept at moving the puck. Foote, Salei, Hannan, and Clark aren't exactly the best offensive dmen. We lose Liles, and it's really going to hurt.
He's consistent: 30, 38, 20, 15, 28 are his ranking in defenseman scoring since he's entered the league.
id hardly call those numbers "consistant". dropping from 30 to 38, then jumping up to 20, then jumping up to 15, then dropping back to 28 is more "erratic" than "consistant.
id hardly call those numbers "consistant". dropping from 30 to 38, then jumping up to 20, then jumping up to 15, then dropping back to 28 is more "erratic" than "consistant.
He's consistently good lets say then. I think you'll find the 38 and the 15 are outlier years and he'll generally stay in the 20-30th range as his career settles down.
