HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Business of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, expansion and relocation, and NHL revenues.

Balsillie/Phoenix part III

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
05-19-2009, 12:18 PM
  #101
GSC2k2*
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hamilton, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,384
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by doug mckenzie View Post
why does Bettmen say in his own email that not much interest in a team losing 40 million a season ....?


Garys number way off to?was his use of 40 mm just a ball park?
$40+ mil = losses after depreciation

Also, coincidentally, $40 mil = losses before revenue sharing. If you look in the previous thread, I broke down the team's own version of their finances.

GSC2k2* is offline  
Old
05-19-2009, 12:19 PM
  #102
GSC2k2*
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hamilton, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,384
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by King_Stannis View Post
But the cash for those assets was paid for up front, no? So within the period, the depreciation expense is a non-cash item. But on the whole, that money was laid out there up front, I am assuming.

In other words, if you pay $12 Million for an asset and over three years you take in $10 million in revenue, your pockets are still $2 million lighter at the end of those three years. It matters only from a tax and reporting perspective how the revenue and depreciation expense falls within each year. The owner, if he is smart, will see that he outlayed more cash than he took in over the period.

Depreciation is simply an accounting and tax item that prevents you from expensing large items all at once. You are still paying for them, though.
Not as regards player contracts. They are also expensed in the period as well.

GSC2k2* is offline  
Old
05-19-2009, 12:20 PM
  #103
Artyukhin*
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,831
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by gscarpenter2002 View Post
$40+ mil = losses after depreciation

Also, coincidentally, $40 mil = losses before revenue sharing. If you look in the previous thread, I broke down the team's own version of their finances.
you broke it down ......and Gary bumped up the NHL credit lines from 70 million to 200 million ....hmmmm ...i think he said in case a team " needed help.... how ironic those words may become

Artyukhin* is offline  
Old
05-19-2009, 12:23 PM
  #104
GSC2k2*
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hamilton, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,384
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by doug mckenzie View Post
you broke it down ......and Gary bumped up the NHL credit lines from 70 million to 200 million ....hmmmm ...i think he said in case a team " needed help.... how ironic those words may become
i broke it down in the detail as reported by Shumway (in case you thought i was making it up).

GSC2k2* is offline  
Old
05-19-2009, 12:26 PM
  #105
Artyukhin*
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,831
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by gscarpenter2002 View Post
i broke it down in the detail as reported by Shumway (in case you thought i was making it up).
its all good....



what do ya think ,

1. if Basillie was bidding 212 million to move them to Winnipeg would they be in court today?

2.If the court says "iron clad lease " and Jerry's bid is successful does he need to go bankrupt to move the team?

Artyukhin* is offline  
Old
05-19-2009, 12:27 PM
  #106
LadyStanley
Elasmobranchology-go
 
LadyStanley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: North of the Tank
Country: United States
Posts: 58,330
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by doug mckenzie View Post
Lets say the court holds the lease... team cant move for 25 more years or what ever ...

Jerry Reinsdorf buys the team keeeps losing money...does he have to go bankrupt to move Phx ?
There may be a deal negotiated (or terms already discussed) to have less of a financial hit (currently $700m) if the franchise needs to move.

(But WRT talent, they are very close to be finally "over the hump" and have given the Sharks headaches for many years. So could have a winning club that may get the folks back in the arena.)

LadyStanley is offline  
Old
05-19-2009, 12:29 PM
  #107
Artyukhin*
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,831
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
There may be a deal negotiated (or terms already discussed) to have less of a financial hit (currently $700m) if the franchise needs to move.

(But WRT talent, they are very close to be finally "over the hump" and have given the Sharks headaches for many years. So could have a winning club that may get the folks back in the arena.)
winning this season didnt seem to draw extra ...then they tanked out ...


lets say next season we drop a Stanley cup final run in PHX ......can we hike ticket price 15 -20 % over the next few years?are the fans going to eat it up that well?

again will the good people of PHX not only near sell the building out but accept much higher prices in tickets? this could be the bigger problem .

Artyukhin* is offline  
Old
05-19-2009, 12:30 PM
  #108
TaketheCannoli
RIP
 
TaketheCannoli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Ohio
Country: United States
Posts: 8,706
vCash: 500
I believe the NHL needs to stay and succeed in Phoenix. If hockey is to ever grow beyond its current popularity, the NHL needs to support teams like Phoenix, Florida, Tampa etc., as well as Europe. In time, hockey will gain dramatically in popularity and the entire league will be healthier and stronger. I understand SOME Canadians feel they own hockey and don't like a lot of what has happened in the NHL for the last 20 years. It's very much like Don Cherry constantly saying Russian hockey sucks. It's nationalism. Unfortunately, I also am sure that Balsillie is using this nationalism as a cover for his real desires, his very own plaything. Balsillie has demonstrated he doesn't truly care about Canadians. He attempted to buy the Senators to move them to Hamilton. He doesn't care who loses a team, as long as he gets one. I suspect a move like this would possibly bankrupt Buffalo. Is that acceptable to fans? Kill Phoenix AND Buffalo so Balsillie can have a toy??? Perhaps gsc is right, enough is enough. The league can put a 3rd team owned by MLSE in Mississauga.

I actually support NHL expansion in Canada, but I'm not too sure where. My first impulse is Toronto. It would solve a number of problems.There are other issues that need to be addressed before a team could be placed in Hamilton. What would the impact be on both the Leafs and Sabres.

Additionally, if I owned an NHL franchise, hell would freeze before he would get a franchise. Why? He has proven several times he will do whatever he has to, damage whomever he has to to get his way. I have no doubt he would work to undermine the other owners if it suited his purposes.

TaketheCannoli is offline  
Old
05-19-2009, 12:37 PM
  #109
LadyStanley
Elasmobranchology-go
 
LadyStanley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: North of the Tank
Country: United States
Posts: 58,330
vCash: 500
Let's not get that far off the topic of Phoenix/Balsillie to start discussing European expansion/support.

Please keep on topic.

Thanks.


Edit: If you really want to talk about European expansion, there's already a thread: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=638509


Last edited by LadyStanley: 05-19-2009 at 01:03 PM.
LadyStanley is offline  
Old
05-19-2009, 12:39 PM
  #110
Art.Vandelay
@kash2112
 
Art.Vandelay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Glendale, AZ
Posts: 1,483
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
BOH mod mouser is planning on attending hearing.



I think Moyes came on board after that lease was in place. (So can't blame him for that.)

Moyes was part of the ownership that signed the lease on the arena. He became majority owner later, but as a minority owner you would think he would have been aware of the lease.

Here is a link that provides a pretty good timeline of the events:

http://coyotes.nhl.com/team/app/?ser...a_team_history

Art.Vandelay is offline  
Old
05-19-2009, 12:44 PM
  #111
mouser
Global Moderator
Business of Hockey
 
mouser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: South Mountain
Posts: 12,729
vCash: 500
Still reading through the legal motions they'll be arguing before the court today. Came across this interesting gem in Daly's declaration:

When Moyes became the sole owner in 2006, under the Consent Agreement with the NHL he agreed to keep the Coyotes in Phoenix for a minimum of seven years.

extract from the Consent Agreement:
Quote:
"for a period of at least seven (7) calendar years from the date hereof, [Moyes] will not: (i) move or transfer, request to move or transfer, or attempt to move or transfer, the Franchise to a new Home Territory, (ii) engage or participate in discussion or negotiations with a third party relating to moving or transferring the Franchise to a new Home Territory, or (iii) sell or propose to sell any ownership or equity interest in the Franchise to the public, whether by way of a public offering, private placement or similar vehicle."
Edit: Worth pointing out the proposed Pittsburgh sale to Balsillie would have also included a 7 year no-move clause. Looks like this is a default inclusion in the NHL ownership transfers per other comments.


Last edited by mouser: 05-19-2009 at 12:51 PM.
mouser is offline  
Old
05-19-2009, 12:46 PM
  #112
Crazy_Ike
Cookin' with fire.
 
Crazy_Ike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,024
vCash: 50
I don't think there's any possible outcome to this that would be considered a positive to the Phoenix team. Enough poison has been spewed that the franchise is probably dead in the water there regardless of the outcome.

For the NHL, I wonder if the best possible outcome would be to lose this court challenge, and then simply revoke the franchise. A deadweight franchise removed, a destabilizing potential owner thwarted, all expansion locations intact.

Only real drawback would be the NHLPA would not be happy about the eliminated NHL spots.

Crazy_Ike is offline  
Old
05-19-2009, 12:47 PM
  #113
King_Stannis
Registered User
 
King_Stannis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Erie PA, USA
Country: United States
Posts: 807
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by gscarpenter2002 View Post
Not as regards player contracts. They are also expensed in the period as well.
I don't understand, then. What exactly are they depreciating?

King_Stannis is offline  
Old
05-19-2009, 12:49 PM
  #114
Art.Vandelay
@kash2112
 
Art.Vandelay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Glendale, AZ
Posts: 1,483
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by doug mckenzie View Post
winning this season didnt seem to draw extra ...then they tanked out ...

lets say next season we drop a Stanley cup final run in PHX ......can we hike ticket price 15 -20 % over the next few years?are the fans going to eat it up that well?

again will the good people of PHX not only near sell the building out but accept much higher prices in tickets? this could be the bigger problem .
The Coyotes got hot for a few weeks and jumped into 5th in the West. Winning over a short period of time does not quickly generate fan base.

This is a bandwagon town. If the team starts to win consistently or puts together a nice playoff run, Glendale arena will quickly be a place "to be seen" and attendance will jump.

Some stability in the roster and some of the kids panning out as start (Turris, Mueller, Boedker) will help. One of the running jokes here is that everyone is afraid to buy a custom jersey because that player won't last here. A lot of fans were furious that they traded Carcillo. Although it was a GREAT hockey move, it didn't help with the fans. The team needs more "fan favorite" type players besides Doan.

Also, the team has been discounting tickets fairly frequently over the past few years. STH's get tons of free and/or discounted tickets. Anyone claiming to be a group gets discounts. They give out vouchers for free or discounted tickets at games. If they just stop giving the big discounts, the average ticket prices will go up alot.

Art.Vandelay is offline  
Old
05-19-2009, 12:50 PM
  #115
VictoryRose
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,275
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy_Ike View Post
I don't think there's any possible outcome to this that would be considered a positive to the Phoenix team. Enough poison has been spewed that the franchise is probably dead in the water there regardless of the outcome.

For the NHL, I wonder if the best possible outcome would be to lose this court challenge, and then simply revoke the franchise. A deadweight franchise removed, a destabilizing potential owner thwarted, all expansion locations intact.

Only real drawback would be the NHLPA would not be happy about the eliminated NHL spots.
There is no way the league is going to just contract a franchise.

They would cave in to JB's demands before they did that (given the promise to stay in phx one more year) and reorganize the league.

Contraction. No chance unless the flipside is expansion, in which case, the parties purchasing the new franchise rights (that aren't JB) are going to prefer buying and relocating an existing team, especially a team that has the some potential in their good young roster.

The league is staying at a minimum of 30 teams regardless of today's outcome. Even Daly and GB's egos aren't big enough to occupy the gap that the league minus one franchise leaves.

VictoryRose is offline  
Old
05-19-2009, 12:50 PM
  #116
Devs
Registered User
 
Devs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: NJ/DC
Country: United States
Posts: 1,348
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
BOH mod mouser is planning on attending hearing.
Any idea how they'll get that info to us? Will they give a synopsis afterwards or will they do a live update with twitter, etc? Thanks!

Devs is offline  
Old
05-19-2009, 12:52 PM
  #117
MayDay
Registered User
 
MayDay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Mount Kisco, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 10,342
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by doug mckenzie View Post
AND just wait ...if this dont go the way it should how much fun will the NHL have facing the Competition Competition Committee having to air more dirt and drag in the Leafs and Msle this time..
The Canadian Competition Bureau already investigated this the last time, when Balsillie tried to purchase and relocate the Predators, and they concluded that the NHL's policies regarding home territories and relocation were sound.

Granted that's not the same as a court ruling, but if I were you, I wouldn't put my hopes in the Competition Bureau finding against the NHL in this instance.

MayDay is offline  
Old
05-19-2009, 12:53 PM
  #118
mouser
Global Moderator
Business of Hockey
 
mouser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: South Mountain
Posts: 12,729
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devs View Post
Any idea how they'll get that info to us? Will they give a synopsis afterwards or will they do a live update with twitter, etc? Thanks!
I'm planning to post here as time permits during the hearing.

mouser is offline  
Old
05-19-2009, 12:55 PM
  #119
VictoryRose
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,275
vCash: 500
ooo Twitter updates would be amazing!

VictoryRose is offline  
Old
05-19-2009, 12:55 PM
  #120
Artyukhin*
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,831
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art.Vandelay View Post
The Coyotes got hot for a few weeks and jumped into 5th in the West. Winning over a short period of time does not quickly generate fan base.

This is a bandwagon town. If the team starts to win consistently or puts together a nice playoff run, Glendale arena will quickly be a place "to be seen" and attendance will jump.

Some stability in the roster and some of the kids panning out as start (Turris, Mueller, Boedker) will help. One of the running jokes here is that everyone is afraid to buy a custom jersey because that player won't last here. A lot of fans were furious that they traded Carcillo. Although it was a GREAT hockey move, it didn't help with the fans. The team needs more "fan favorite" type players besides Doan.

Also, the team has been discounting tickets fairly frequently over the past few years. STH's get tons of free and/or discounted tickets. Anyone claiming to be a group gets discounts. They give out vouchers for free or discounted tickets at games. If they just stop giving the big discounts, the average ticket prices will go up alot.

in all honesty i do hope they can find the solution some how to make PHX work but those 20-40 million dollar losses regardless of excuses are real as the NHL now footing bills is find out fast.

One thing about it is if they ever planned to move the team back to Winnipeg after only moving the team just 12 years ago (and Gary said he winnipeg is possible) then maybe someday they could move a team back to PHX ....

i guess we can never say never huh?

Artyukhin* is offline  
Old
05-19-2009, 12:57 PM
  #121
Artyukhin*
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,831
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MayDay View Post
The Canadian Competition Bureau already investigated this the last time, when Balsillie tried to purchase and relocate the Predators, and they concluded that the NHL's policies regarding home territories and relocation were sound.

Granted that's not the same as a court ruling, but if I were you, I wouldn't put my hopes in the Competition Bureau finding against the NHL in this instance.
i think what they faced last time compares nothing to what they will need to face this time ...quite different is my understanding ....

Artyukhin* is offline  
Old
05-19-2009, 12:59 PM
  #122
TaketheCannoli
RIP
 
TaketheCannoli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Ohio
Country: United States
Posts: 8,706
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by VictoryRose View Post
ooo Twitter updates would be amazing!
This woman was at the last hearing and posted regular updates:

http://twitter.com/TheYotesDiva

TaketheCannoli is offline  
Old
05-19-2009, 01:04 PM
  #123
GSC2k2*
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hamilton, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,384
vCash: 500
I just want to address one significant point that one of the other lawyers on this Board and I have been discussing at some length privately.

One of the key affidavits filed in this case is an affidavit by a gentleman named Donald Wall, one of the lawyers for the team. It pertains to an interview that the law firm conducted with Michael Nealy, the CFO of the team (as well as Joel Leibfried, controller of the team). It purports to cover an extensive set of dealings between the NHL and Mr. Nealy and his colleague. Withotu getting into it in too much detail, the statements are highly selective, at best, and arguably don't do that much to argue against the NHL's position on control.

The curious part is that it is pretty well unheard of for a lawyer to swear that his client told him something. In short, it is hearsay. However, more to the point, it is extremely unusual for a lawyer to swear that he had the conversation with what is effectively his client because the proper and sensible way to do it is to prepare an affidavit of the person who was intereviewed and have THEM swear to it. Makes sense, right?

Now, given the highly irregular nature of what the team has done regarding Mr. Nealy, one can only speculate as to why they have done this. It certainly would not be because Mr. Nealy has some philosophical objection to swearing an affidavit, as he swore a couple of them at the outset of the bankruptcy hearing (routine stuff about paying creditors in the usual course, DIP financing, etc.). It would certainly not be because he went away on vacation, as he recently signed a couple of affidavits (the ones i mentioned above) that were filed unsigned.

Speculation? Either Mr. Nealy does not believe what his attorney has now been forced to swear and he knows a lot more about the dealings that are not favourable to the team and are not in the attorney's affidavit, and the team's attorneys do not want him cross-examined.

Either way, this is highly irregular and potentially outright improper.

There is a high probability that his evidence will be excluded. If the judge is so inclined, he will also be having some very testy questions for the team's attorneys.

GSC2k2* is offline  
Old
05-19-2009, 01:07 PM
  #124
rt
Usually Incorrect
 
rt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Rarely Sober
Country: United States
Posts: 45,237
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy_Ike View Post
For the NHL, I wonder if the best possible outcome would be to lose this court challenge, and then simply revoke the franchise. A deadweight franchise removed, a destabilizing potential owner thwarted, all expansion locations intact.
As a Phoenix fan, this is really my only concern in all of this. If they move, so be it. I'll get over it, and remain loyal. However, if they were to fold entirely, I'll be drinking Drain-O while driving Northbound on a Southbound freeway at ninety miles an hour, with my eyes closed.

rt is online now  
Old
05-19-2009, 01:07 PM
  #125
Artyukhin*
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,831
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MayDay View Post
The Canadian Competition Bureau already investigated this the last time, when Balsillie tried to purchase and relocate the Predators, and they concluded that the NHL's policies regarding home territories and relocation were sound.

Granted that's not the same as a court ruling, but if I were you, I wouldn't put my hopes in the Competition Bureau finding against the NHL in this instance.

check this out

http://www.nationalpost.com/sports/s...tml?id=1601930




Quote:
Maple Leafs could soon be at a crossroads
"Everything has a price, whether it is $1-million or $100-million, and both Buffalo and Toronto will exact a price if, in the end, they agree that for the best of the league it makes sense to put a team in Hamilton," said Rick Powers, the associate dean at the University of Toronto's Rotman School of Management.

"It is likely that if Toronto or Buffalo dig their heels in, that the whole [territorial] provision will be challenged in court, and the fear there is that if it gets overturned, they get zero. If they try to fight it, they risk losing everything. And that is the issue when you get down the road."

Artyukhin* is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:36 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.