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Dallas and Montreal

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Old
05-19-2009, 05:26 PM
  #1
Jack Bourdain
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Dallas and Montreal

Well the initial thought of making this proposal came to me when I was reading about the Memorial Cup thread in the prospects forum. I saw that Kulikov was getting mixed reaction and people were suggesting he would fall from his current 8-10 spot and perhaps lower. I wanted to see if Montreal could try and draft him rather than wait at 18 for the BPA. Of the teams picking in the top 10, I couldn't see any team that could or would afford to trade their 1st pick apart for Dallas, who already have a very well balanced team offensively and defensively. While this year was out of the norm, it did however reveal to us that Dallas did have a good prospect pool with real potential in youth. Now they could always keep the 8th and take a player like Kulikov and wait for him to develop... or here's my wish:



18th Overall 2009
Jaroslav Halak
Ryan O'Byrne or [Ryan McDonagh]
David Fischer


8th Overall 2009

Now I want to just mention a few things I thought about when writing this:
  • Tobias Stephan is UFA, and so is Dallas's other backup. This leaves only RFA Matt Climer to play behind Turco.
  • Dallas and Montreal have always been trading partners (you guys owe us for the Ribs trade! )
  • Dallas seems well rounded on offense, so I guessed they would benefit from a defensive prospect
  • Habs best prospects in defense are Subban and McDonagh. If I suggested the former, I would be hanged by Habs fan. If I suggested the latter, it wouldn't make much sense because we've already put in a couple of years on him, and this would be counterproductive to trade him before he played in the NHL.
  • Ryan O'Byrne still has a nice upside, he just needs to grow into his skin. Literally, he needs to learn how to use his body and play smart hockey. It's probably going to take him 1 or 2 more seasons to become stable. I don't see it being in Montreal
  • David Fischer is finally showing why he was drafted in the 1st round a few years ago. He may not amount to much, but he has improved yearly for a while now, and maybe Dallas should see into it.
  • In terms of going down 10 spots, Dallas might and I think SHOULD ask for another pick in return. However Montreal doesn't have a 2nd in 2009, so it'll have to be a third in 2009 or a 2nd in 2010. Let me know if that makes more sense?
  • Pretty much it. Dallas fans will probably decline because they think Halak isn't worth the risk and the 18th overall will amount to little. I can understand that, I was just trying to pitch a solution for Dallas and something Montreal could benefit from in a few years.

Now argue if the package from Montreal is worth the 8th overall, and maybe whats lacking, because I know I'm not the best at making proposals.


Last edited by Jack Bourdain: 05-19-2009 at 05:55 PM.
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Old
05-19-2009, 05:42 PM
  #2
Bunter McVirtanen
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I don't think DAL does it. They are getting to draft in the top 10 for the first time in over a decade, and are likely to get a potential franchise player with that pick. By any chance, if they wanted to trade the pick, I'm sure it would be in a package for a top D-man (i.e., Visnovsky).

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Old
05-19-2009, 05:46 PM
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I'd be willing to offer some serious players for that pick. Our spare parts won't cut it though.

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Old
05-19-2009, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoHo View Post
I don't think DAL does it. They are getting to draft in the top 10 for the first time in over a decade, and are likely to get a potential franchise player with that pick. By any chance, if they wanted to trade the pick, I'm sure it would be in a package for a top D-man (i.e., Visnovsky).
I agree.

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Old
05-19-2009, 05:55 PM
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Jack Bourdain
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I was going to put McDonagh up there with O'Byrne... I just didn't have the balls.

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Old
05-19-2009, 06:01 PM
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WAY too much on Montreal part... wow I wouldn't even trade halak and our pick straight up for the 8th pick overall unless of course MPS drop there which shouldn't be the case !

pass !

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Old
05-19-2009, 06:05 PM
  #7
Jack Bourdain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
WAY too much on Montreal part... wow I wouldn't even trade halak and our pick straight up for the 8th pick overall unless of course MPS drop there which shouldn't be the case !

pass !
You seem to forget that Halak is a RFA after this season, and was an 8th round pick. The decision to stick with Price (which is the right decision btw) makes Halak expendable.

If you don't think Kulikov is worth trading Halak and our first, nevermind the other parts of the trade, then you are part of a very SMALL minority.

I tried to keep my post as civil as possible, but be prepared to be flamed by many other HF users that value Kulikov highly.

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Old
05-19-2009, 06:08 PM
  #8
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I don't the Dallas does it, but the value is there. Moving up into the top 10 from 18th would cost you around this, but why I said Dallas wouldn't is because they don't get Top 10 picks too often.

As I said before, though, good trade - the value is there.

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Old
05-19-2009, 06:10 PM
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I value Kulikov very highly yet I don't do this trade as Montreal.

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Old
05-19-2009, 07:40 PM
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I don't do it from the Habs pov. First of all they need to draft a C , no more Dmen. And 6'4 great skating Dmen(Fischer/O'Bryne) dont grow on trees. Plus Halak is worth a 1st rounder himself.

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Old
05-19-2009, 07:55 PM
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Unless there's a #1 D-man involved or the move down is only 2 or 3 spots, Dallas isn't trading that pick as far as I'm concerned. I guess if we had to trade for a goalie I'd move down to Minny's spot, add in Josh Harding, and possibly add in a 3rd or some second tier prospect from our side.

Bottom line, we don't need any more young D-men. And I think we hold off on any goalie trading until we see what happens with Gustavsson.


Last edited by Captain Awesome: 05-19-2009 at 08:01 PM.
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Old
05-19-2009, 08:27 PM
  #12
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Yeah, this doesn't interest me at all from a Dallas POV. Halak is worth a 1st rounder himself? OK, good luck.

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Old
05-19-2009, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
WAY too much on Montreal part... wow I wouldn't even trade halak and our pick straight up for the 8th pick overall unless of course MPS drop there which shouldn't be the case !

pass !
Agreed. Too much for that pick.

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Old
05-19-2009, 08:50 PM
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Decent value in this for Dallas.

McDonagh was a 1st round, 12th overall pick in 2007.
Fischer was a 1st round, 20th overall pick in 2006.

Although neither one has done much to increase their stock, they are still young and have upside.

This is a deep draft, so the 18th pick could be good, too. If Dallas wants, they could probably turn around and use the 18th pick to move back up a few spots into the top 15. If they could trade back up a few spots using the 18th and and 2nd or prospect, and still get a Ryan Ellis or Kassian, then there's a lot of value in this trade.

And Halak could prove to be a successor to Turco.

However, from Montreal's standpoint, this deal shows questionable asset management... anytime you take 3 first round picks from within a 3 year span (plus Halak, plus a 2nd), and only end up with 1 asset to show for it, you gotta be absolutely certain you're getting an NHL star out of it, otherwise your team will be completely screwed in no time.

Then there's the matter of trading away guys you just drafted recently ... makes your scouting staff look stupid and the GM look like he's constantly second guessing himself and unsure of himself.

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Old
05-19-2009, 09:13 PM
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Jack Bourdain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burt the Dog View Post
Decent value in this for Dallas.

McDonagh was a 1st round, 12th overall pick in 2007.
Fischer was a 1st round, 20th overall pick in 2006.

Although neither one has done much to increase their stock, they are still young and have upside.

This is a deep draft, so the 18th pick could be good, too. If Dallas wants, they could probably turn around and use the 18th pick to move back up a few spots into the top 15. If they could trade back up a few spots using the 18th and and 2nd or prospect, and still get a Ryan Ellis or Kassian, then there's a lot of value in this trade.

And Halak could prove to be a successor to Turco.

However, from Montreal's standpoint, this deal shows questionable asset management... anytime you take 3 first round picks from within a 3 year span (plus Halak, plus a 2nd), and only end up with 1 asset to show for it, you gotta be absolutely certain you're getting an NHL star out of it, otherwise your team will be completely screwed in no time.

Then there's the matter of trading away guys you just drafted recently ... makes your scouting staff look stupid and the GM look like he's constantly second guessing himself and unsure of himself.
Even without McDonagh, this deal seemed fair to me. But I guess there is a popular belief that Kulikov or whoever is drafted 8th overall has high potential to develop into franchise caliber player. Solely based on this premise am I suggesting this trade, otherwise the number of bodies going and coming don't make this trade very viable.

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Old
05-19-2009, 09:15 PM
  #16
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If Monty put McDonagh in that trade instead of Byrne I'd jump on it if I was Dallas. Even with Byrne I may consider it.

Quote:
McDonagh was a 1st round, 12th overall pick in 2007.
Fischer was a 1st round, 20th overall pick in 2006.

Although neither one has done much to increase their stock, they are still young and have upside.
Well McDonagh was just a frosh with UW-Madison this past season and looked pretty good in the games I saw him in. So I certainly don't think he has done any harm to his regard in Mtl's eyes. He's may not have Byrne's size, but is a very smart, speedy Dman. I've followed him since HS and I have no doubt he'll be a top pairing defenceman in the NHL. Gainey would be foolish to make that trade.

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Old
05-19-2009, 09:18 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burt the Dog View Post
Decent value in this for Dallas.

McDonagh was a 1st round, 12th overall pick in 2007.
Fischer was a 1st round, 20th overall pick in 2006.

Although neither one has done much to increase their stock, they are still young and have upside.

This is a deep draft, so the 18th pick could be good, too. If Dallas wants, they could probably turn around and use the 18th pick to move back up a few spots into the top 15. If they could trade back up a few spots using the 18th and and 2nd or prospect, and still get a Ryan Ellis or Kassian, then there's a lot of value in this trade.

And Halak could prove to be a successor to Turco.

However, from Montreal's standpoint, this deal shows questionable asset management... anytime you take 3 first round picks from within a 3 year span (plus Halak, plus a 2nd), and only end up with 1 asset to show for it, you gotta be absolutely certain you're getting an NHL star out of it, otherwise your team will be completely screwed in no time.

Then there's the matter of trading away guys you just drafted recently ... makes your scouting staff look stupid and the GM look like he's constantly second guessing himself and unsure of himself.
And that NHL star is who Dallas hopes to draft with their pick, instead of trading it for a backup goalie and a few players who've yet to hit their stride.

Doesn't matter much to me when a player was drafted; the Stars traded for Tukonen early last year, and he went higher than both of the Habs prospects you mentioned (11th overall in 2005 I think), but does that matter? Not at all, he was shipped off for a 7th defenceman and may never become the player many thought he would be.

Again, I'd much rather prefer they keep the pick.

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05-19-2009, 11:00 PM
  #18
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I'd do that trade with Ryan McDonagh in it, but I'm not sure why Montreal would.

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05-19-2009, 11:40 PM
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I'd do that trade with Ryan McDonagh in it, but I'm not sure why Montreal would.
Yeah, I agree. McDonagh can be scary good one day. If the Habs are going to move one of their prized blue chip prospects on defense (McDonagh, Subban) I think they need to get a proven commodity in return.

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Old
05-20-2009, 02:19 AM
  #20
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i can understand why Dallas fans (or any other top 10 picking team) wouldn't want to move down for anything short of a massive overpayment, but from an asset POV, that proposed deal is too much to give up 10 spots in a deep draft.

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Old
05-20-2009, 09:02 AM
  #21
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We need to keep the pick....The fans that have supported this team for almost 2 decades have watched us draft spares and trade 1st round picks away a couple times (for Nagy and Norstrom). Myself as a Dallas fan would be really pissed off if they move it. Hull even said a while back that they think they owe it to the fans to hold onto this pick and draft the future instead of trading it away.

Now i would love to have Halak as a backup if Gustavsson is signed by someone else and Harding goes elsewhere.

To Dallas:
Halak
Lapierre

To Montreal:
2nd in '09
Robidas
mid-level prospect

This is a really deep draft and 2nd round players are still have huge upside.


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Old
05-20-2009, 09:21 AM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knee Seeking Scud View Post

To Dallas:
Halak
Lapierre

To Montreal:
2nd in '09
Robidas
mid-level prospect
Montreal would have to be insane to deal Lapierre. You have to take him out of the deal.

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Old
05-20-2009, 10:12 AM
  #23
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If Monty put McDonagh in that trade instead of Byrne I'd jump on it if I was Dallas. Even with Byrne I may consider it.



Well McDonagh was just a frosh with UW-Madison this past season and looked pretty good in the games I saw him in. So I certainly don't think he has done any harm to his regard in Mtl's eyes. He's may not have Byrne's size, but is a very smart, speedy Dman. I've followed him since HS and I have no doubt he'll be a top pairing defenceman in the NHL. Gainey would be foolish to make that trade.
McDonagh was a sophmore this year. Imo he played well and could turn pro this summer. I know for a fact that the Habs director of scouting, Trevor Timmins is very high on McDonagh so I got it think it's very unlikely he would get traded at this stage of his career.

I can understand why Dallas wouldn't want to move their pick either, for me I'd rather see the Habs move down a few spots so they can get a 2nd round pick if their guy is off the board by the 18th pick.

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Old
05-20-2009, 10:15 AM
  #24
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Crazy overpayment to move up 10 spots for just the 8th overall pick.

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Old
05-20-2009, 10:28 AM
  #25
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The Dallas people think they are giving up too much
The Montral people think they are giving up too much

Can mean only 1 thing. The proposal is fair for both sides.
Now I don't know if the specifics fit into either teams plans but the proposal is fair.

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