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Van - Phi (No Luongo)

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Old
05-19-2009, 06:52 PM
  #26
The Pucks
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Originally Posted by ELab2 View Post
Yeah I don't think it's fair to say he's cemented himself at this level but anyone who watches knows he's nothing like Cheechoo.
I know San Jose fans were pretty enamored with Cheechoo for quite some time after his huge season, and he one upped Carter, he won the Richard Trophy, he did follow it up with a 37 goal season. We all know Thornton was a huge factor in Cheechoos great season.

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Old
05-19-2009, 06:52 PM
  #27
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Not having 2nd round picks is no way to get the Flyers to make trades.

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Old
05-19-2009, 06:55 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by The Pucks View Post
I know San Jose fans were pretty enamored with Cheechoo for quite some time after his huge season, and he one upped Carter, he won the Richard Trophy, he did follow it up with a 37 goal season. We all know Thornton was a huge factor in Cheechoos great season.
So glorious set up guys like Hartnell and Lupul were a big factor in Carter's season?

I think it's safe to say that he's not getting all of his goals from them. If it was Briere, Giroux, or Richards with him you could almost make that claim, but again they're not playmakers on the level of Thornton. Giroux could very well be in his prime, but not yet.

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05-19-2009, 06:59 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by twenty2 View Post
So glorious set up guys like Hartnell and Lupul were a big factor in Carter's season?

I think it's safe to say that he's not getting all of his goals from them. If it was Briere, Giroux, or Richards with him you could almost make that claim, but again they're not playmakers on the level of Thornton. Giroux could very well be in his prime, but not yet.
Im not sure how any of that has anything to do with my posts. The fact is, Carter has not solidified himself in the minds of other teams fans, you as a Philly fan have already cast his statue in front of the stadium, but he still needs to do it again to prove himself to others.

This is nothing new, home team fans do it all the time and away fans tend to need more convincing.

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05-19-2009, 07:03 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by The Pucks View Post
Im not sure how any of that has anything to do with my posts. The fact is, Carter has not solidified himself in the minds of other teams fans, you as a Philly fan have already cast his statue in front of the stadium, but he still needs to do it again to prove himself to others.

This is nothing new, home team fans do it all the time and away fans tend to need more convincing.
You said that Thornton was a major part of Cheechoo's success.

It's hard to imagine that Lupul and Hartnell helped Carter with great passes to pad his goal totals like you suggested Thornton helped Cheechoo.

I don't see why you think it has nothing to do with your claims...

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Old
05-19-2009, 07:04 PM
  #31
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Next season will be the litmus test for Jeff Carter. He had an amazing season in 08-09, but now he has to solidify it to achieve such lofty standards. Philly fans seem quite sure they have Rocket Richard on their hands while other teams fans seem a bit more skeptical, looking at players like Jonathan Cheechoo as boom, bust guys.
Next season will be huge for Carter, he did get some cheap goals this season, but every goalscorer gets their fair share of cheap goals...hell Crosby's postseason has been filled with garbage goals. And "goalscorers" usually aren't nearly as consistent as "playmakers," and when they are, they are really really good players (Ovechkin, Kovalchuk).

And there are a lot of differences between Cheechoo and Carter, one huge one is one of the best playmakers in the league...that should be pretty obvious. The second is what I mentioned earlier, Carter has arguably the hardest wrist-shot in the NHL.

You don't trade players like Carter, especially coming off a 46 goal season. It doesn't matter if you don't think he will repeat, you don't trade players like that.

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Old
05-19-2009, 07:07 PM
  #32
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Fact is, he's a lot more tradable then most of the fans think he is.

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Old
05-19-2009, 07:11 PM
  #33
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Fact is, he's a lot more tradable then most of the fans think he is.
Fact? Based on...?

If that is a fact, then every single player in the NHL is a lot more tradable than fans think. What a terrible blanket statement.

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Old
05-19-2009, 07:13 PM
  #34
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I've come to the conclusion that Philly and Vancouver are just not good trading partners.

The only players the Canucks fans are interested in are Carter and Richards, and the only way Flyers fans would move either one is in a deal for Luongo.

There's just nothing that's gonna happen here, IMO.

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Old
05-19-2009, 07:13 PM
  #35
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I think that's pretty damn fair value-wise. Philly gets a legit guy to anchor the 2nd pair for years to come and a goalie with a very high ceiling, as well as two prospects. That's not to say Philly would do it, as those holes could potentially be filled without moving our best goal-scorer.

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Old
05-19-2009, 07:16 PM
  #36
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Any chance a package involving Schneider and Edler would make sense for a sniping winger like Gagne?
Nope.

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05-19-2009, 07:21 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
I've come to the conclusion that Philly and Vancouver are just not good trading partners.

The only players the Canucks fans are interested in are Carter and Richards, and the only way Flyers fans would move either one is in a deal for Luongo.

There's just nothing that's gonna happen here, IMO.

Uhhhh....a trade based around Schneider for either JVR or Giroux +/- picks and other assets is probably a pretty good basis for a trade.

A salary dump of Lupul is another.

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Old
05-19-2009, 07:23 PM
  #38
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Edler is the sole bright spot on our blue line, we dont have much in the way of organizational depth on defense so him being moved will have to be something damn good for Gillis to consider it...I dont think Gillis considers moving him for guys like Gagne, maybe Bieksa but not Edler.

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Old
05-19-2009, 07:25 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by ginner classic View Post
Uhhhh....a trade based around Schneider for either JVR or Giroux +/- picks and other assets is probably a pretty good basis for a trade.

A salary dump of Lupul is another.
I really doubt Philly trades Giroux in any sort of prospect swap but I agree these two teams seem more suited to a smaller trade or prospect swap than these grandiose Carter/Luongo/etcetc proposals.

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Old
05-19-2009, 07:25 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by ginner classic View Post
Uhhhh....a trade based around Schneider for either JVR or Giroux +/- picks and other assets is probably a pretty good basis for a trade.

A salary dump of Lupul is another.
Schneider isn't going to get you Giroux...it's doubtful that the Flyers would trade JVR for Schneider either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unknown View Post
Edler is the sole bright spot on our blue line, we dont have much in the way of organizational depth on defense so him being moved will have to be something damn good for Gillis to consider it...I dont think Gillis considers moving him for guys like Gagne, maybe Bieksa but not Edler.
Fair enough about Edler.

Gagne for Bieksa is a no go. Gagne's worth more than Bieksa.

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Old
05-19-2009, 07:25 PM
  #41
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Take out Edler from Vancouver's side and it might be fair.

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Old
05-19-2009, 07:28 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Redlighting View Post
Take out Edler from Vancouver's side and it might be fair.
Schneider, 2nd round 09, 2nd round 10

for Carter....

Um...

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Old
05-19-2009, 07:31 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by ginner classic View Post
Uhhhh....a trade based around Schneider for either JVR or Giroux +/- picks and other assets is probably a pretty good basis for a trade.

A salary dump of Lupul is another.
Yea, we've been over all that, though, from every angle, time and time again.

We're not trading a prospect for a prospect (and neither should the Canucks). It just doesn't happen in the real world. And Giroux isn't going anywhere.

You want Lupul in a salary dump, that's cool, we'll talk, but we've been all through the rest of it, and we never reach common ground.

Carter and Richards don't get moved unless Luongo comes the other way. We're not trading top-end prospects back and forth, unless you can show me an example when that's ever happened. And I haven't seen any interest in taking on Lupul in a salary dump (we're not losing pieces such as JVR and Giroux in a salary dump, not gonna happen).

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Old
05-19-2009, 07:31 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by ginner classic View Post
Uhhhh....a trade based around Schneider for either JVR or Giroux +/- picks and other assets is probably a pretty good basis for a trade.

A salary dump of Lupul is another.
hard to see them wanting to involve Giroux in a deal for Schneider, some are already saying he is going to be the best player on the team in a few years.

JVR for Schneider could work but even still flyers fan will come and argue that Schneider is still just a prospect and he should not return more than a pick because there is an abundance of good goaltenders out there...thats why they have such an awesome tandem

i cant see Gillis interested in taking Lupuls salary his raise, raises the bar for negotiating future contracts like Kesler who has produced similiar points and brings a lot more to the table.

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Old
05-19-2009, 07:34 PM
  #45
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JVR for Schneider could work but even still flyers fan will come and argue that Schneider is still just a prospect and he should not return more than a pick because there is an abundance of good goaltenders out there...thats why they have such an awesome tandem
No, the argument is it NEVER happens. If we're basing discussions off reality, then that's reality. Unless you can show me when a top-end prospect was traded for another top-end prospect from a different team, its a moot point. Its not reality. It doesn't happen.

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Old
05-19-2009, 07:35 PM
  #46
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Take out Edler from Vancouver's side and it might be fair.


And add one bag of glue.

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Old
05-19-2009, 07:41 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by twenty2 View Post
I don't know, but I'm considering Gagne for this package since he might not even be in Philadelphia in two years, but then again he has an NTC.

Any chance a package involving Schneider and Edler would make sense for a sniping winger like Gagne?
Can't see it happening. Our team is old enough as it gets... and I'm not a fan of Gagne's injury history. Edler and Schneider packaged together are being moved for superstars... ala Carter.

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maybe switch the picks to kesler?
Okay, now that's just ridiculous.

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Old
05-19-2009, 07:43 PM
  #48
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Can't see it happening. Our team is old enough as it gets... and I'm not a fan of Gagne's injury history. Edler and Schneider packaged together are being moved for superstars... ala Carter.
That's fair. I can understand your concerns on Gagne.

That said, Richards won't be the guy moving for Edler and Schneider. Obviously, there are other teams who just might consider something like that, but the Flyers aren't one of them.

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05-19-2009, 07:45 PM
  #49
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No, the argument is it NEVER happens. If we're basing discussions off reality, then that's reality. Unless you can show me when a top-end prospect was traded for another top-end prospect from a different team, its a moot point. Its not reality. It doesn't happen.
a lot of things dont occur on a regular basis, just because it is not common practice doesnt mean that gms wont explore the opportunity. but from what i remember and the reason for my comment was it seemed like a common belief that Schneiders value was lower because guys like Bryzgalov and Montoya were moved for next to nothing.

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Old
05-19-2009, 07:49 PM
  #50
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That's fair. I can understand your concerns on Gagne.

That said, Richards won't be the guy moving for Edler and Schneider. Obviously, there are other teams who just might consider something like that, but the Flyers aren't one of them.
Completely agreed.

If you guys moved Richards I'd hit Holmgren on the head myself. He is your heart and soul... Kesler brings the same thing, which is why I teased that user that wanted us to switch the picks for Kes.

Philly and Vancouver should look elsewhere I guess, because nothing seems to workout between the two teams. It's always nice playing you though. (and losing )

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