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Van - Phi (No Luongo)

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Old
05-20-2009, 03:32 AM
  #76
phlocky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1025 View Post
Schneider and Edler is not over paying?

Schneider might just be the best goalie in terms of talent, potential and contract, that's even remotely avaliable.

Edler is a young defensemen, prone to errors and misjudgement, but no doubt will have a solid career.

If anything, those picks shouldn't be included.



We have 3 young dmen who are prone to errors and misjudgements but will no doubt have solid careers, Coburn, Carle and Parent. I'm not saying they are better than Edler but our problem RIGHT NOW, even more so than goaltending, is the lapses our defenders make. If we add a dman it's probably going to be one who is more polished in his own zone (it may be an exceptional young one like J-Bo or a veteran one). While Edler would be great to add we reall aren't hurtin in our "future" defensive position on the team. Coburn, Carle and Parent are all young and definitely top 4 right now (though they do still make mistakes), Sbsia as a probably top 2 in a few years, Marshall as a probable 2nd or 3rd pairing physical defensive dman and Bourdon as a probable 2nd or 3rd pairing puck mover/offensive dman our blue line really isn't a future concern.

Schneider is a great looking goalie prospect but he's just that. Goalie is the toughest position to actually translate to the NHL. Schneider has NEVER been talked about as havin "elite" type talent, he's still not a "can't miss" goalie prospect. This is not meant as a disrespect to Schneider, it's just the truth. There are 4 young goalies who are likely available for trade this off-season (or at least that GM's will be inquiring about their availability) in Schneider, Harding, Halak, and Pavelec. All are pretty good and though Schneider may be the best he's not leaps and bounds ahead of he pack.

The Flyers do have depth at center so they COULD trade Carter and be ok. However, I think they'd rather keep Giroux with Briere because they really seem to compliment each others styles and without Carter our scoring becomes thin with splitting up Giroux and Briere. The Flyers would be able to put 2 decent players on each of their top 3 lines and I think it would make them less effective overall. Beyond what we have in the NHL right now, the Flyers have NO potential top 9 centers in their system so dealing one of the young 3 we plan on having here for may years puts a huge whole in our future, let alone te present.

Honestly, I don't think a deal will actually be done between our 2 teams. I don't know if anyone else has discussed this one but the only way I could see Carter being dealt would be if we got a top end center prospect in return. Get ready to scream Vanc fans, here it comes:

To Vanc - Jeff Carter + 09 3rd (we traded ours so 1 of the 2 we picked up in trades)
To Philly - Schneider + Cody Hodgson + 2nd in 09


I would have to seriously think about this from Phillies POV but I don't think I'd do it. Schneider and Hodgson MAY turn out to be great players but Carter has already broken out and at 24 in an alstar center right along side some of the best in the league coming out of the east. As good of a prospect as Hodgson is I doubt he will be as good as Carter (though they really are different types of centers). Carter is so valuable to us (he's the only center we have than can handle the size and physical play of Malkin and Ovechkin) that I'd probably want either a 1st from Vanc or to swap Carle for Edler (I doubt Vanc would swap the dmen so it would look like a 1st) and then I think it makes it undesirable from the Vanc POV.

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05-20-2009, 04:22 AM
  #77
mercury
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
To Phi- Bieksa, Schneider, 2nd '09
To Van- Gagne, 1st '09

Philadelphia won't be able to re-sign Gagne in a couple years, shed over $1mil in cap space and fill 2 organizational needs with Bieksa and Schneider

Vancouver adds a legitimate top 6 forward that can put the puck in the net and play a solid two-way game alongside Ryan Kesler.

That is an ATROCIOUS deal for Philly. Take out Philly's 1st in 2009 and it becomes sane.

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05-20-2009, 05:22 AM
  #78
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Make the Flyers send a 3rd instead of a 4th, and Vancouver sends a 1st 09 instead of a 2nd, and its a slam dunk for me.

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Old
05-20-2009, 08:37 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twenty2 View Post
Schneider isn't going to get you Giroux...it's doubtful that the Flyers would trade JVR for Schneider either.



Fair enough about Edler.

Gagne for Bieksa is a no go. Gagne's worth more than Bieksa.
Why wouldnt they trade JVR for Schneider? All scouts have Schneider as a future #1 and he's extremely cheap. If the Canucks signed Luongo long term and decided to deal Schneider the Flyers should make every effort to acquire Schneider. JVR for Schneider is a fair trade. Canucks may have to throw a pick back the other way.


Last edited by brian822: 05-20-2009 at 08:45 AM.
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Old
05-20-2009, 08:49 AM
  #80
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I even made a proposal that trades Carter but it was for fun, I don't see him getting traded.

Briere is going to waive his NMC this summer for the rights to a UFA dman. It's the only way he'll be traded and it's the only trade the Flyers want to make considering their cap restrictions. They do not want to trade any of their other big contract guys, and I don't blame them.

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Old
05-20-2009, 09:18 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brian822 View Post
Why wouldnt they trade JVR for Schneider? All scouts have Schneider as a future #1 and he's extremely cheap. If the Canucks signed Luongo long term and decided to deal Schneider the Flyers should make every effort to acquire Schneider. JVR for Schneider is a fair trade. Canucks may have to throw a pick back the other way.
It doesn't matter what you see as being fair value for Schneider.

There's plenty of solid, young goaltending prospects and NHL ready talent that won't cost us JVR.

Why in the world would we blow a top five NHL prospect on the type of player we could get for much less from another team that doesn't need theirs.

Also don't forget that high end prospects don't get traded for high end prospects. It just doesn't happen.

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05-20-2009, 09:22 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AC Le Rock View Post
I even made a proposal that trades Carter but it was for fun, I don't see him getting traded.

Briere is going to waive his NMC this summer for the rights to a UFA dman. It's the only way he'll be traded and it's the only trade the Flyers want to make considering their cap restrictions. They do not want to trade any of their other big contract guys, and I don't blame them.
People talked about the Flyers forward depth last year, wait till next year when Briere is healthy. They're could give opposing coaches fits matching up.

Gagne - Richards - Lupul
Hartnell - Carter - Giroux
Ross - Briere - Nodl
Carcillo - Powe/UFA (Pahlsson!) - Powe/UFA

Given that the Flyers seem to be able to draft forwards very well, and have terrible history finding goalies, JVR for Schneider + a pick would be a no brainer for them. I'm not going to call JVR "replaceable" exactly, but it seems they'd have an easier time refreshing the pool at forward than finding some good goalie prospects.Lemelin has got to go fwiw.

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Old
05-20-2009, 09:33 AM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twenty2 View Post
It doesn't matter what you see as being fair value for Schneider.
His opinion matter precisely as much as yours and mine (not very much). Don't be an arrogant d**k, it makes the rest of us Flyer fans look bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by twenty2 View Post
There's plenty of solid, young goaltending prospects and NHL ready talent that won't cost us JVR.
Name the goalies with Schneider-type upside that you're sure we can get for less than JVR. Lehtonen is the only guy I can think of really, and he is gonna be more expensive than Schneider will be for a long time. Not to mention ATL supposedly asked for JVR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by twenty2 View Post
Why in the world would we blow a top five NHL prospect on the type of player we could get for much less from another team that doesn't need theirs.
Who has a else Schneider quality goal tending prospect? There might be two other teams (Boston, and maybe ATL). I am pretty confident Boston is going to use Rask as a back up next year. And I am thinking Pavelec might split starts for ATL next year, as he will be cheaper than Kari by a lot, and ATL is not cash rich. So Vancouver needs their top goalie prospect the least of anyone, unless I am forgetting some other team (am I?). Harding from Minnesota is the only guy I can think of. Minnesota makes all their goalies look good, so take him with a grain of salt (though I'd still take him as a Flyer gladly).

Quote:
Originally Posted by twenty2 View Post
Also don't forget that high end prospects don't get traded for high end prospects. It just doesn't happen.
He's kicking around an idea, that's all. I also think if they resign Luongo then the idea of a JVR - Hodgson line would be very attractive to Vancouver. And lord knows Philly needs a potential franchise goalie in the worst way (also I think Schneider is closer to stepping into full time action than JVR, but only time will tell).

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Old
05-20-2009, 10:28 AM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post

Gagne - Richards - Lupul
Hartnell - Carter - Giroux
Ross - Briere - Nodl
Carcillo - Powe/UFA (Pahlsson!) - Powe/UFA
What is this?

Ross, Nodl, Carcillo, Powe? Brutal.

6.5M a year Briere playing with scrubs?

and you have Schneider in the net? Thats real nice.

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05-20-2009, 10:32 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
What is this?

Ross, Nodl, Carcillo, Powe? Brutal.

6.5M a year Briere playing with scrubs?

and you have Schneider in the net? Thats real nice.
That bottom six does not speak for the entirety of the Flyers fan.

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Old
05-20-2009, 10:50 AM
  #86
brian822
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twenty2 View Post
It doesn't matter what you see as being fair value for Schneider.

There's plenty of solid, young goaltending prospects and NHL ready talent that won't cost us JVR.

Why in the world would we blow a top five NHL prospect on the type of player we could get for much less from another team that doesn't need theirs.

Also don't forget that high end prospects don't get traded for high end prospects. It just doesn't happen.
You're right that high end prospects don't get traded for each other. I think the last time I can remeber that happening was when Berrard and Redden were traded for each other. Obviously if you can cut a deal for someone like Schneider or even the young kid from Boston, cant remember his name, then by all means do it.

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Old
05-20-2009, 12:06 PM
  #87
phlocky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
People talked about the Flyers forward depth last year, wait till next year when Briere is healthy. They're could give opposing coaches fits matching up.

Gagne - Richards - Lupul
Hartnell - Carter - Giroux
Ross - Briere - Nodl
Carcillo - Powe/UFA (Pahlsson!) - Powe/UFA

Given that the Flyers seem to be able to draft forwards very well, and have terrible history finding goalies, JVR for Schneider + a pick would be a no brainer for them. I'm not going to call JVR "replaceable" exactly, but it seems they'd have an easier time refreshing the pool at forward than finding some good goalie prospects.Lemelin has got to go fwiw.
I have a sneaky suspicion that we are going to see a 1st line of Gagne-Giroux-Briere next season. Giroux and Briere already have tremendous chemestry and just seem to "fit" each others style and we've gotten a glimps of what Giroux to Gagne can look like, just amazing.

I think we'll see Hartnell-Carter-Nodl as the 2nd line, spreads the offensive wealth a bit and Nodl can probably fill in Lupuls spot adequately. I see the 3rd line as Carcillo/other-Richards-Lupul. Lupul seems to mesh well with Richards and if he gets his physical game back then he would be a solid shut-down forward to put with Richards to go up against the top lines in the east.

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Old
05-20-2009, 12:10 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
What is this?

Ross, Nodl, Carcillo, Powe? Brutal.

6.5M a year Briere playing with scrubs?

and you have Schneider in the net? Thats real nice.

I would have Schneider backing up. I obviously wouldn't hand him the starting job right away. Daniel Briere is an offensive talent, Ross and Nodl have both shown the ability to score. Their ability to play as compared to their cap hits is attractive for a team that is up against the cap as well. I also think playing with a center that can get them the puck like Briere would really help their development and confidence at the NHL level. Danny would obviously log a lot of minutes on the power play, and possibly jump around to different spots as needed, as John Stevens has shown a willingness to move guys around. If you find me forwards the Flyers can afford that you'd prefer to play with Briere, then more power to you, throw em on in there.

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Old
05-20-2009, 12:22 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
I have a sneaky suspicion that we are going to see a 1st line of Gagne-Giroux-Briere next season. Giroux and Briere already have tremendous chemestry and just seem to "fit" each others style and we've gotten a glimps of what Giroux to Gagne can look like, just amazing.

I think we'll see Hartnell-Carter-Nodl as the 2nd line, spreads the offensive wealth a bit and Nodl can probably fill in Lupuls spot adequately. I see the 3rd line as Carcillo/other-Richards-Lupul. Lupul seems to mesh well with Richards and if he gets his physical game back then he would be a solid shut-down forward to put with Richards to go up against the top lines in the east.
Interesting combinations. That Carcillo-Richards-Lupul line is an interesting idea. Those are two pretty intense guys you have Lupul with. If they brought some intensity out of him, particularly in his own zone, and Carcillo can pot a few then it could work out.

Worst case scenario you waste Richards' defensive talents by throwing him out there with two defensive question marks that get the line scored on, and then you have an inept scorer in Carcillo.

Could go either way...worth a look, and interesting.

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Old
05-20-2009, 12:32 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boondock View Post
Leifey - we'll throw in Kesler if you add Coburn and JVR
there's a reason i don't make proposals. my point was that the flyers need to have solid centers to make it in the atlantic division. they won't trade carter without a solid two-way center coming back as well.

i'd do gagne for bieksa/schneider. i love gags, but bieksa was exactly the kind of player the flyers needed against the pens.

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Old
05-20-2009, 12:32 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
I would have Schneider backing up. I obviously wouldn't hand him the starting job right away. Daniel Briere is an offensive talent, Ross and Nodl have both shown the ability to score. Their ability to play as compared to their cap hits is attractive for a team that is up against the cap as well. I also think playing with a center that can get them the puck like Briere would really help their development and confidence at the NHL level. Danny would obviously log a lot of minutes on the power play, and possibly jump around to different spots as needed, as John Stevens has shown a willingness to move guys around. If you find me forwards the Flyers can afford that you'd prefer to play with Briere, then more power to you, throw em on in there.
I agree with you. For that guy to refer to these role players as scrubs is beyond me. Some of these "scrubs" actually were the reason the Flyers won two games in the first round this year...the audacity some people have...

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