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Coyotes Financial/Ownership Situation #4

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05-20-2009, 08:24 PM
  #101
ShootThePuckCoyotes
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Originally Posted by Jakeman View Post
12 years is a long time to show the NHL,Phoenix and fans that this team can be a winner and this simply hasn't happened. I don't know if this franchise will find an owner willing bleed 30 mill per season and still feel like giving this team chance after chance to prove or show a profit. I believe my favorite sports team is in danger of going leaving Arizona, maybe not this season but next. They just aren't successful in this market. Ballsilie is also not what this franchise needs, if this franchise moves I hope it's not in Hamilton and not in Las Vegas either.
I guess I will have to disagree with you, twelve years is not nearly enough time especially since the team has been run poorly for many years.

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05-20-2009, 08:26 PM
  #102
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I guess I will have to disagree with you, twelve years is not nearly enough time especially since the team has been run poorly for many years.
Agreed. You need a generation to really plant solid roots. You need a team that is at least moderately successful to inspire people.

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05-20-2009, 08:33 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by ShootThePuckCoyotes View Post
I guess I will have to disagree with you, twelve years is not nearly enough time especially since the team has been run poorly for many years.
Oh! Don't get me wrong, I agree that the coyotes have had poor management but the damage might be too hard to reverse the adverse effects that's already been caused as a result of this team being operated like it has. The coyotes are on total life support and the NHL knows it. The time has come to make some hard decisions and I think the Judge in this case has made the NHL realize it. If this court hoopla goes to June 22 and a decision for an auction of the coyotes happens with no restrictions attached and they become a mobile franchise(Like Daley puts it) the coyotes are as good as gone in my opinion.

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05-20-2009, 08:43 PM
  #104
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Oh! Don't get me wrong, I agree that the coyotes have had poor management but the damage might be too hard to reverse the adverse effects that's already been caused as a result of this team being operated like it has. The coyotes are on total life support and the NHL knows it. The time has come to make some hard decisions and I think the Judge in this case has made the NHL realize it. If this court hoopla goes to June 22 and a decision for an auction of the coyotes happens with no restrictions attached and they become a mobile franchise(Like Daley puts it) the coyotes are as good as gone in my opinion.
I hope I am not being sold a lie by the NHL but from what I can tell is that they believe that Phoenix must be given time too. I hope they find a buyer that is willing to give us chance and is much smater about running the team. If we get another owner like we did in the past than we don't stand a chance.

Regarding the relocation arguement, it is clear to me that the judge does not want to make the wrong decision. Because he will take the time to research and weigh it carefully I am hopeful that he will make the right one. The right decesion would be to leave it as it is and let the league partners have the final say. If rules otherwise you will have a whole other can of worms to deal with!

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05-20-2009, 08:46 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Jakeman View Post
Oh! Don't get me wrong, I agree that the coyotes have had poor management but the damage might be too hard to reverse the adverse effects that's already been caused as a result of this team being operated like it has. The coyotes are on total life support and the NHL knows it. The time has come to make some hard decisions and I think the Judge in this case has made the NHL realize it. If this court hoopla goes to June 22 and a decision for an auction of the coyotes happens with no restrictions attached and they become a mobile franchise(Like Daley puts it) the coyotes are as good as gone in my opinion.
Phoenix is ranked second to LA when it comes to youthful talent. Most people predict this team to be the next Chicago in a couple of years, if that happens you will see the adverse effects indeed begin to reverse.

There is no changing the past but for once the future looks bright for the on ice product, bailing now would defeat the purpose of the NHL putting a team here in the first place!

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05-20-2009, 09:35 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by ShootThePuckCoyotes View Post
I hope I am not being sold a lie by the NHL but from what I can tell is that they believe that Phoenix must be given time too.
You ARE being sold a lie. At least if what's coming out now in court is on the up and up. It appears that Bettman and the league want the Coyotes moved too - just not to Hamilton and not on Balsillie's terms.

Seems to me that John Breslow is the only white knight we have left.

I don't envy the judge one bit. He might end up being a permanent fixture in North American professional sports history - his ruling might end up being as much a fundamental game-changer as free agency was when they struck down the reserve clause.

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05-20-2009, 09:39 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Sinurgy View Post
Phoenix is ranked second to LA when it comes to youthful talent. Most people predict this team to be the next Chicago in a couple of years, if that happens you will see the adverse effects indeed begin to reverse.

There is no changing the past but for once the future looks bright for the on ice product, bailing now would defeat the purpose of the NHL putting a team here in the first place!
I don't want this team to leave either and yes I agree the future looks bright in terms of on ice product but a deep pocketed owner needs to come forward, other than Ballsilie or this franchise is right where they are with Moyes , which is nowhere good. This new so called competion , in terms of another bidder probably isn't very deep pocketed , because he is part of a group of buyers going together which tells me it isn't too different than the type of ownership Tampa has. Even if this team gets this group as an owner, they could end up broke in a few years and unsuccessful like it has been for twelve years. This franchise needs someone that has money like Ballsillie has. This team is bleeding too much to make it work with an owner who doesn't have enough capital, I don't see how it will get any better unless this team starts winning fast and makes the fanbase come out of the woodwork. Will this group ownership spend to the cap? Will they spend the money to compete? If none of this happens, put a fork into the coyotes stay in Arizona.

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05-20-2009, 09:41 PM
  #108
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There is more in the area that can't get in to games than there is those that do. Thanks, see ya!
You are half right. Toronto is a tough expensive ticket. Buffalo is neither. In fact the Sabres were an attendance laggard through much of the 1990s and the early 2000s.

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05-20-2009, 11:47 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by zyllyx View Post
You ARE being sold a lie. At least if what's coming out now in court is on the up and up. It appears that Bettman and the league want the Coyotes moved too - just not to Hamilton and not on Balsillie's terms.

Seems to me that John Breslow is the only white knight we have left.

I don't envy the judge one bit. He might end up being a permanent fixture in North American professional sports history - his ruling might end up being as much a fundamental game-changer as free agency was when they struck down the reserve clause.
I'm going to disagree with that.

The NHL's stance has been consistent throughout that they want the team in Phoenix. The sole statement I've seen suggestion anything to the contrary is a court filing of a Bettman conversation that said if the team moved he thought it should be offered to Winnipeg before Hamilton, and that statement was in the context of the Balsillie Hamilton bid.

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05-21-2009, 12:16 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by zyllyx View Post
You ARE being sold a lie. At least if what's coming out now in court is on the up and up. It appears that Bettman and the league want the Coyotes moved too - just not to Hamilton and not on Balsillie's terms.

Seems to me that John Breslow is the only white knight we have left.

I don't envy the judge one bit. He might end up being a permanent fixture in North American professional sports history - his ruling might end up being as much a fundamental game-changer as free agency was when they struck down the reserve clause.
I disagree. I think they are willing to give Phoenix a second chance. Are they willing to let this go on for 25 years, no. But 2, 3, maybe a few more years to see if the franchise can turn around, and both the team and AZ fans can step up to the plate, yes. Some of that may be forced face-saving for Bettman, but does it really matter?

Bottom line: If the team is saved, AZ fans are going to have to step up to the plate and provide better support in terms of ticket sales. I'll take that challenge opposed to having the team ripped out from under us right now.

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05-21-2009, 12:18 AM
  #111
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Where has it been factually proven that the Reisdorff offer would come with movement attached at some point?

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05-21-2009, 01:12 AM
  #112
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Here's my take on the situation. I've read through most of the court filings and went to yesterday's hearing as well as the initial one a couple weeks ago. Have been posting much of this on the BoH (Business of Hockey) forum, and should have posted more here.


Yesterday's court hearing leaned much more in the direction of the Coyotes staying in Phoenix than leaving IMO. There are a few key items in front of the court:

a) Is Moyes or the NHL now in control of the team?
- I originally assumed this was important, yet the Judge didn't necessarily take the position that it was a critical dispute. If the team is going to be sold to a new owner via the bankruptcy court, does it really matter who is in Control? In my limited legal view, it might only make a difference if the NHL is determined to be in control and wanted to remove the case from bankruptcy. Since Moyes is still owed $ and now seems to be in a clear adversarial position to the NHL, it probably makes sense for the NHL to sell the team from bankruptcy even if they (NHL) are judged to have control so they can resolve Moyes debtor claim.

b) Does the bankruptcy court have the authority to force the NHL to accept Balsillie (or anyone else) as a new owner without NHL approval?
- The NHL's Constitution and Bylaws contain provisions that only the NHL can approve the transfer of an NHL franchise from one owner to another. These "rules" are not simply idle writings that someone could say "those NHL rules don't override the law". These rules are very deliberately and carefully codified by very expensive lawyers in the legal documents that every NHL owner/team signs as a condition of joining the NHL. It's not a question of "the NHL or the law"--the NHL's position is grounded on legal precedents.

c) Does the bankruptcy court have the authority to force the NHL to allow an NHL franchise to relocate without NHL approval?
- Very similar to (b) above, but possibly different in the view of the bankruptcy court.


Balsillie's offer to buy the team requires that the bankruptcy court force the NHL to accept (b) and (c) whether they agree or not. For the court to rule in favor of Balsillie's request would be a major precedent setting decision. So much so that the MLB, NBA and NFL have all filed briefs in support of the NHL's position that the bankruptcy court should not choose (b) and (c). IMO, the Judge would strongly prefer not to choose (b) and (c) unless he's 100% confident that's right because that decision would be appealed up the court chain and Judges hate being scrutinized and possibly overturned by higher courts.

Balsillie's proposal (and typical bankruptcy procedure) requires that an auction take place where the highest bidder wins. The key question for the Judge is what exactly is up for bid? Is this an NHL franchise that can be bought and moved anywhere (b & c) without NHL approval, or is this a franchise that can only be sold to a new owner approved by the NHL and only moved if the NHL also approves? This is a critical question, and the Judge clearly recognized that from his dialog in court. It's a completely different set of bidders wanting a team that can be moved anywhere vs. a team in Phoenix.


At this point I think we're going to see the team auctioned off to a new buyer by the bankruptcy court, probably in mid to late July. The auction will take one of two forms:
1) Anyone can bid and the winner can move the team anywhere.
2) The NHL will pre-approve all bidders as acceptable owners and the winner will keep the team in Phoenix (with likely concessions from Glendale).


I think (2) is the most likely outcome.

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Old
05-21-2009, 05:31 AM
  #113
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Thanks for the rundown Mouser. I'm hoping #2 is the likely scenario as well. I'm keeping my fingers crossed!!!

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05-21-2009, 09:46 AM
  #114
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I'm hoping for #2 as well, but only if the new owners can figure out how to return this team to profitability. A realistic financial model is critical to keeping this team in Phoenix. I don't want them to remain here, only to move another year or two down the road. If they are here next season, attendance is going to be atrocious. Noone will support a team that they expect to move, so the new owners need to be prepared and have a plan for dealing with that scenario. Ultimately, they need to put a winning team on the ice.

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05-21-2009, 09:54 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by LetsGoCoyotes View Post
I'm hoping for #2 as well, but only if the new owners can figure out how to return this team to profitability. A realistic financial model is critical to keeping this team in Phoenix. I don't want them to remain here, only to move another year or two down the road. If they are here next season, attendance is going to be atrocious. Noone will support a team that they expect to move, so the new owners need to be prepared and have a plan for dealing with that scenario. Ultimately, they need to put a winning team on the ice.
Unfortunately if the bidding doesn't happen until late July, that means the team can't re-sign its players while the whole financial mess happens and they can't sign any FAs (if they were targeting any). I have a feeling this lame duck summer is going to be horrible for the team. The only positive that can happen is that the new ownership wants Gretzky out as coach, along with the rest of his staff, and they bring in a veteran coaching staff to lead the relatively young team.

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05-21-2009, 10:11 AM
  #116
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Bottom line: If the team is saved, AZ fans are going to have to step up to the plate and provide better support in terms of ticket sales. I'll take that challenge opposed to having the team ripped out from under us right now.
You might see a spike in attendance during the first few games, but again - it all comes down to product quality. Fans aren't suddenly going change their behavior and start spending cash to save the team. I personally am going to stick to my 8-10 games per season. I love the team, but it's not a charity organization.

If the team's saved, it's up to the players & coaches to step up first. And event before that, Gretzky better have the decency to void his contract, whether he coaches or not.

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05-21-2009, 10:21 AM
  #117
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Seems to me that John Breslow is the only white knight we have left.
Does anybody know how deep his pockets are?
Ive googled him but all i found out is that hes a Las Vegas based businessman that owns a 2-3 % stack in the coyotes.
I know hes not alone, its a group surrounding Breslow that will finally place a bid on the Yotes, but it would be interesting to know a lot more about him how he earns his money and how big his capital stock could be.

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05-21-2009, 10:26 AM
  #118
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Let's not forget the city of Glendale's claim on breaking the lease. The court hasn't even dealt with this issue yet. This claim can strengthen all offers to keep the team in Gleendale.

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05-21-2009, 10:31 AM
  #119
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Unfortunately if the bidding doesn't happen until late July, that means the team can't re-sign its players while the whole financial mess happens and they can't sign any FAs (if they were targeting any). I have a feeling this lame duck summer is going to be horrible for the team. The only positive that can happen is that the new ownership wants Gretzky out as coach, along with the rest of his staff, and they bring in a veteran coaching staff to lead the relatively young team.
On May 27, we should know who is "controlling" the team unless they have to have a mini-trial on that issue. As part of that court date, I would think the judge will discuss operating procedures. As part of a bankruptcy case, they have to make sure the business continues to operate throughout the process.

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05-21-2009, 11:10 AM
  #120
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Unfortunately if the bidding doesn't happen until late July, that means the team can't re-sign its players while the whole financial mess happens and they can't sign any FAs (if they were targeting any). I have a feeling this lame duck summer is going to be horrible for the team. The only positive that can happen is that the new ownership wants Gretzky out as coach, along with the rest of his staff, and they bring in a veteran coaching staff to lead the relatively young team.
Holy crap I just had a scary thought, what if teams throw offer sheets at our RFA's? Does this mean we can't match?

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05-21-2009, 11:34 AM
  #121
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Unfortunately if the bidding doesn't happen until late July, that means the team can't re-sign its players while the whole financial mess happens and they can't sign any FAs (if they were targeting any). I have a feeling this lame duck summer is going to be horrible for the team. The only positive that can happen is that the new ownership wants Gretzky out as coach, along with the rest of his staff, and they bring in a veteran coaching staff to lead the relatively young team.
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Holy crap I just had a scary thought, what if teams throw offer sheets at our RFA's? Does this mean we can't match?
Even operating under bankruptcy, the team will be able to continue normal business operations - including signing player contracts.

The Pens operated, signed cotracts, and even participated in one Entry Draft while under Chapter XI.

The issue then goes back to control - not who had control in early may to declare/not declare bankruptcy - but who has operational control of the team today and is authorized to make player personnel decisions (which I would assume to be the league unless a different decision comes out of the mediation).

The other issues are whether approval of the court would be needed for player contracts or if there would be limitations in terms of spending.

Harkening back to the Steve Belkin / Atlanta Spirit / Hawks / Thrashers dispute - at one point the judge ruled that the Hawks/Thrashers could not sign a new contract for > 1 yr (except where CBAs required a longer duration) and could not exceed their league salary caps, but later relaxed the ruling to a 4 year limit.


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Old
05-21-2009, 11:38 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by ShootThePuckCoyotes View Post
Holy crap I just had a scary thought, what if teams throw offer sheets at our RFA's? Does this mean we can't match?
I wouldn't worry about that. First, Upshall is really the only RFA that I think may attract that type of attention. Its not like we have an Iginlia type player that someone will try to poach with a huge offer thats out of iour range. Second, the league has agree to fund the team which implicitely means that they will at least fund to the minimum salary cap. Our RFA's fit within that.

Now we may have problems with UFA's. Don't expect any big hits on that front this year. But hey, Maloney didn't go there last year either.

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05-21-2009, 11:41 AM
  #123
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Wow I never really payed attention to where Hamilton is located, no freakin wonder Buffalo and Toronto are up in arms. That'd be 3 NHL teams literally within 45 miles of each other.
Yep. And then there's the fact that Balsillie doesn't seem interested in handing over a single cent if he does relocate the team to Hamilton.

That's why I'm hopeful that the Leafs and Sabres can influence the BoG if it ever comes to bringing this guy in as an owner.

Going back to the discussion on population, I honestly don't think they can realistically expect that many people from the GTA to go there en masse during rush hour to catch a game.

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05-21-2009, 12:31 PM
  #124
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At this point I think we're going to see the team auctioned off to a new buyer by the bankruptcy court, probably in mid to late July. The auction will take one of two forms:
1) Anyone can bid and the winner can move the team anywhere.
2) The NHL will pre-approve all bidders as acceptable owners and the winner will keep the team in Phoenix (with likely concessions from Glendale).
I believe there is also option 3:

3) The NHL will pre-approve all bidders as acceptable owners and the NHL will pre-approve where the team can move.

----

Really 1) is impossible, as pointed out earlier, a billionaire from Russia could move the team to Moscow and that would severely hurt the league. I doubt the judge would allow it.

That makes 2) and 3) the only real possibilities with 3) being the most likely, IMO, as it would protect territorial rights, keep the NHL's (and NBA's, NFL's, & Baseball's) right to control where teams play, and most likely produce higher bids.

That said, depending on how the court rules on possible debt to the City of Glendale, the highest bid with movement out of Glendale might be worse for creditors then a lower bid that stays in Glendale.

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05-21-2009, 12:37 PM
  #125
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I can't add much to the legal issues in this case; read a good bit over on the BoH board and came out of it with a very bad headache. But just as a hockey fan in general, I sincerely hope the Coyotes stay put.

Some of us here in Atlanta are old enough to remember when the Flames got moved up north. I was quite young, but I still remember how devestating that was at the time (and the 20 years in between teams was no picnic either). I don't wish that kind of hurt on any hockey fan. Some fans, above and below the border, talk about reloaction in such a casual and sometimes malicioius manner that just amazes me. As if it meant nothing, just a normal occurance. I suppose you actually have to either watch your team move or be under the actual threat of it to really understand.

Even today, those of us in Atlanta also have sympathy when it comes to a legal battle. For 3+ years, our owners have been in and out of court trying to come to terms on a buyout for one of the group. To say the least, their court battle/feud/childish slap-fight has been ugly and even though there should be a decision sometime soon, the loser will definitely appeal thus dragging it out for another year or so. Been a huge distraction to the team in a variety of ways, one being that they have had a self-imposed cap set pretty low. Makes sense in a way, since no one party is directly in control costs will be kept low until it's resolved. But it also hurt the on-ice product, the overall value of the franchise; which is precisely what their court battle is about. A complete cluster-F.

On several different fronts, many of us here in Atlanta feel your pain. It's not just for all these reasons why I want to see the 'Yotes stay. I very much believe that the NHL belongs in the south, and will grow well if given enough time. This is already too long so I won't go into specifics, but let's just say hockey in the south isn't an experiment; it's a natural move and will in time be a very natural fit.

Good luck. May the hockey gods (and the legal system) smile up you!

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