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Old
03-23-2004, 07:25 PM
  #1
streetballer03
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Marc-Andre Bergeron Comparisons

These 3 players have always found themselves compared to eachother. It's no wonder since their stats are almost carbon copies of one another. They all bring an offensive dimension for their respected teams. Unlike Andy Delmore, they are all defensively resposible. The knock on these defensemen is the fact that they are vertically challenged. Standing at less than 6 feet, they have trained very hard to adjust to the harsh gameplay in the NHL. Which of these player would you rather have?




<font size=6 face=impact>Marc-Andre Bergeron</font>
<font size=1 face=verdana><b>Shoots: Left
Height: 5'10''
Weight: 190lbs
Birth Date: 1980-10-13 <font face=century gothic>(23 Years Old)</font>
Country: Canada
Undrafted. Signed By the Edmonton Oilers in the summer of 2001
<font face=arial>Salary: $410,000.00</font>

2003-2004 stats

Games Played: 48
Goals: 8
Assists: 14
Points: 22
Points per game: 0.458
PIM: 24
+/-: +12
</font></b>


<font size=6 face=impact>Lubomir Visnovsky</font>
<font size=1 face=verdana><b>Shoots: Left
Height: 5'10''
Weight: 192lbs
Birth Date: 1976-08-11 <font face=century gothic>(27 Years Old)</font>
Country: Slovakia
Drafted: 4th round/118th overall 2000
<font face=arial>Salary: $850,000.00</font>

2003-2004 stats

Games Played: 52
Goals: 8
Assists: 20
Points: 28
Points per game: 0.538
PIM: 24
+/-: +12
</font></b>


<font size=6 face=impact>Brian Rafalski</font>
<font size=1 face=verdana><b>Shoots: Right
Height: 5'9''
Weight: 191lbs
Birth Date: 1973-06-28 <font face=century gothic>(30 Years Old)</font>
Country: USA
Undrafted. Signed by the New Jersey Devils in 1999.
<font face=arial>Salary: $3,000,000.00</font>

2003-2004 stats

Games Played: 68
Goals: 6
Assists: 29
Points: 35
Points per game: 0.515
PIM: 24
+/-: +6
</font></b>



Conclusion

Visnovsky and Bergeron are almost exact copies of eachother. The only difference is the fact that Lubomir is 4 years older and much more experienced. Bergeron plays with an edge. People started to notice him when he laid out that huge hit on Brendan Morrow last year in the playoffs. Raflaski is older than both and costs a lot more. His +/- leaves your head scratching since he plays on a defensive oriented system. Overall which player would you pick? Any comments on any of the players? Are these good comparisons?

The Poll: http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=64472


Last edited by streetballer03: 03-23-2004 at 08:09 PM.
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Old
03-23-2004, 07:49 PM
  #2
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If 20 games was good enough to compare a player to the likes of Brian Rafalski, Jason King would be like Ryan Smyth by now.

Bergeron has to establish himself as an NHL player full-time next year before I would even come close to comparing him with those guys.

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03-23-2004, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
If 20 games was good enough to compare a player to the likes of Brian Rafalski, Jason King would be like Ryan Smyth by now.

Bergeron has to establish himself as an NHL player full-time next year before I would even come close to comparing him with those guys.
Which is why it's after 40 games...

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03-23-2004, 07:54 PM
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I agree with Mizral though, this is hardly a sufficient sample size, I think we'll have a better idea of his future impact next year if there is one, although I do love what I'm seeing right now.

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03-23-2004, 07:56 PM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
If 20 games was good enough to compare a player to the likes of Brian Rafalski, Jason King would be like Ryan Smyth by now.

Bergeron has to establish himself as an NHL player full-time next year before I would even come close to comparing him with those guys.
Scratching my head...

I'd like to agree with you but even i live in Vancouver and i think that these players are comparable. I catch maybe 30-40 Oiler games a year and i haven't found a definite flaw in Bergeron's game. He's a plus 12 and playing like an Oilers top 4 now. It is a little premature i admit; but do you honestly think Marc Andre Bergeron is only having a lucky season? If you've ever seen Bergeron hit a guy, shoot a puck, or even play against bigger players...you'll see why he's definitely in the league of those small dmen. I find it very hard to see how you can compare Jason King to MAB. Jason King clearly wasn't ready for the NHL. MAB wasn't ready at the begining of the season but Craig MacTavish even stated it himself that Marc-Andre has played his last games in the minors this season.


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03-23-2004, 08:00 PM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
If 20 games was good enough to compare a player to the likes of Brian Rafalski, Jason King would be like Ryan Smyth by now.

Bergeron has to establish himself as an NHL player full-time next year before I would even come close to comparing him with those guys.
You shoulda just went with your old formula:

"He's a really good player along the same lines as Kirill Koltsov in the Canucks system, but not quite as offensively gifted."

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03-23-2004, 08:02 PM
  #7
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Originally Posted by Oi'll say!
You shoulda just went with your old formula:

"He's a really good player along the same lines as Kirill Koltsov in the Canucks system, but not quite as offensively gifted."

so funny cause i can totally see him saying it too.

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03-23-2004, 08:03 PM
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yet another post where the old block would keep it on pace for Miz.... but hey - it wouldn't be the same then would it?

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03-23-2004, 08:10 PM
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I'm not saying Bergeron is bad. I'm saying it's a bit much to compare him to Rafalski, a guy with 376 NHL games to his credit and two Stanley Cups, after a 20 game run of good play is a bit much, don't you think? The first 20 games, most people in here were complaining that he wasn't NHL ready. Now after 20 games he's comparable with Rafalski?

Bergeron might be as good as Rafalski, but to compare him now to these guys is just insane.

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03-23-2004, 08:14 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by streetballer03
I catch maybe 30-40 Oiler games a year and i haven't found a definite flaw in Bergeron's game.
Maybe you should watch a bit closer. He has a definite tendency for giveaways in his own zone.

However, IMO, his proficiency on offense and running the powerplay more than make up for his defensive gaffes.

He is playing well, and is an intriguing prospect, but to say you haven't seen a flaw in his game is a little ridiculous.

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03-23-2004, 08:16 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Bergeron might be as good as Rafalski, but to compare him now to these guys is just insane.
No kidding. I almost fell out of my chair when I saw the Rafalski comparison. Sweet Jebus...

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03-23-2004, 08:18 PM
  #12
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The thing im trying to get at is....whenever Marc Andre Bergeron is being compared to any other players who is it? Visnovsky and Rafalski

Stephen Weiss - Compared to Steve Yzerman (geez compare this comparison to mine)

Evgeni Malkin - Compared to Sergei Fedorov.

Crosby - Wayne Gretzky (Thats a disgusting comparison. a 16 year old kid is being compared to all 2800 points that is Wayne Gretzky)

Brule - Deadmarsh/Sakic put together (quoted from his coach on sportsnet)

Kovalchuk - Always compared to Bure (To your standards, comparing these two would be disgusting)



Kiril Kolstov - You do this one Miz (Lidstrom, Blake, Pronger, Jovo?) haha just jokin

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03-23-2004, 08:21 PM
  #13
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Originally Posted by Boondock Saint
Maybe you should watch a bit closer. He has a definite tendency for giveaways in his own zone.

However, IMO, his proficiency on offense and running the powerplay more than make up for his defensive gaffes.

He is playing well, and is an intriguing prospect, but to say you haven't seen a flaw in his game is a little ridiculous.
Im sorry you didnt read close enough but i said i haven't found any major flaws in his game. NO PLAYER IS FLAWLESS and i'm not uneducated enought to call a player flawless who isn't even in my top 150 in players in the NHL. I just mean that he doesn't turn over the puck all the time to the point where it becomes a habit (ie see Tom Poti). Name 5 players over +10 who are defensively inept. Do it, and I will gladly delete this thread.

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03-23-2004, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by streetballer03
Im sorry you didnt read close enough but i said i haven't found any major flaws in his game. NO PLAYER IS FLAWLESS. He doesn't turn over the puck all the time to the point where it becomes a habit (ie see Tom Poti). Name 5 players over +10 who are defensively inept. Do it, and I will gladly delete this thread.
So, you see no definite flaw in Bergy's game, but then you go on to say that no player is flawless.

His defensive giveways and his sometimes careless passes up the middle are a flaw in his game. But he has obviously been working at reducing these mistakes. And MacT thought this was a major enough flaw that Bergy needed to be taken out of the lineup at times this year and even had a few stints with the Runners.

It's not that I didn't read close enough, you just didn't think through what you posted.

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03-23-2004, 08:39 PM
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I think you need to define a definite flaw.

Bergeron has the flaws of many inexperienced/experienced defensemen. He has no definite flaws.

Flaws
Will never outpower a player over 6'2''+220lbs+ Big flaw but not a big problem. Has a lower center a of gravity and can hit pretty hard. I can't recount goals where the Oilers gave up a goal simply because MAB was ludicrously outpowered.

Inexperience is a huge flaw but in time this can be mended. He is dedicated and is willing train to be his best. He still gives the puck away but not to the point where it's costing the Oilers wins.

A definite flaw is something a fan can indicate when they think of the player. When you think of Andy Delmore and Tom Poti, your first prejucdice are that they are offensive defensemen who can't play defense. Being defensively inept is a definite flaw. Marc-Andre is good defensively albeit unspectacular but he can chip in offensively. No one out there can say that Mar-Andre can't play a lick at defense because that's just not true. What i mean by that is that fans don't focus on his defensive short commings every game.

Ex.
Jeff Woywitka has no definite flaws. He plays every facet of the game well but not at an elite level. He's an all around player.


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03-23-2004, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
I'm not saying Bergeron is bad. I'm saying it's a bit much to compare him to Rafalski, a guy with 376 NHL games to his credit and two Stanley Cups, after a 20 game run of good play is a bit much, don't you think? The first 20 games, most people in here were complaining that he wasn't NHL ready. Now after 20 games he's comparable with Rafalski?

Bergeron might be as good as Rafalski, but to compare him now to these guys is just insane.
How about comparing him to the 99/00 Rafalski who went undrafted, the one who went 5 27 32 in 75 games, the one who got a chance to play alot for a very good Devils team after a very offensively respectable run with with the Wisconsin Badgers (91-95), followed by an equally impressive run through the disgarded NHL vets route (3 seasons in the Finnish League).

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03-23-2004, 09:00 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windowlicker
How about comparing him to the 99/00 Rafalski who went undrafted, the one who went 5 27 32 in 75 games, the one who got a chance to play alot for a very good Devils team after a very offensively respectable run with with the Wisconsin Badgers (91-95), followed by an equally impressive run through the disgarded NHL vets route (3 seasons in the Finnish League).
When Rafalski came into this league, he was a top 4 defenseman. He was amazingly mature, and those 3 years in the Finnish league. Those are years that Bergeron simply hasn't had.

Bergeron might be comparable offensivly, but Rafalski is worlds apart in on-ice maturity in terms of decision making and getting the puck out of the zone, etc..

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03-23-2004, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
When Rafalski came into this league, he was a top 4 defenseman. He was amazingly mature, and those 3 years in the Finnish league. Those are years that Bergeron simply hasn't had.

Bergeron might be comparable offensivly, but Rafalski is worlds apart in on-ice maturity in terms of decision making and getting the puck out of the zone, etc..
Maturity-wise, Rafalski hands down at the time. Coming in as a 26 year old after 3 years of playing against men in Finland, to jump to top 4 on NJ's blue-line probably was not that difficult for him. And Marc coming in as a 22 yeard last year, having had a good AHL season, coming in and playing agains the Stars in the playoffs.

I guess the main comparison seems to be that these are 2 small defencemen with an offensive flair who were never drafted. And maybe Bergeron is on his way to becoming something like a Brian Rafalski-type player.

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03-23-2004, 09:36 PM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
When Rafalski came into this league, he was a top 4 defenseman. He was amazingly mature, and those 3 years in the Finnish league. Those are years that Bergeron simply hasn't had.

Bergeron might be comparable offensivly, but Rafalski is worlds apart in on-ice maturity in terms of decision making and getting the puck out of the zone, etc..
I agree.

If you want to be comparing someone to Brian Rafalski it's Jean Michael Liles. Came on to a very strong team, shot up the depth chart and along with showing an excellent offensive game, he was very poised in his own end and earned his way into the top 4.

I think Bergeron has the potential to be a very good offensive defenseman, a good powerplay QB. But I don't see him ever being a top 3 defenseman because I don't ever see his defensive game being very strong. And if you want to give examples of guys like Rafalski or Vishnovsky or Gonchar or anyone like that where you are saying premier offensive defenseman are top 3 defenseman, it's because they are more then adequate defensively. The only one who comes to mind as that type of player would be Sandis Ozolinch, and he always had Adam Foote to stabilize his attacks. Once Ozolinch left the Avalanche system, he was forced to improve his defensive game and that he did with Anaheim last season.

I really don't see much in the way of a Rafalski comparison. A comparison I would make, in a best case scenario type of thing would be Dan Boyle. Boyle, like Bergeron, uses his speed and loves to rush the puck. His defense needed some work and he needed a few years to really get everything together to the point where he could be allowed to play bigger minutes.

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03-23-2004, 10:23 PM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brock
I agree.

If you want to be comparing someone to Brian Rafalski it's Jean Michael Liles. Came on to a very strong team, shot up the depth chart and along with showing an excellent offensive game, he was very poised in his own end and earned his way into the top 4.

I think Bergeron has the potential to be a very good offensive defenseman, a good powerplay QB. But I don't see him ever being a top 3 defenseman because I don't ever see his defensive game being very strong. And if you want to give examples of guys like Rafalski or Vishnovsky or Gonchar or anyone like that where you are saying premier offensive defenseman are top 3 defenseman, it's because they are more then adequate defensively. The only one who comes to mind as that type of player would be Sandis Ozolinch, and he always had Adam Foote to stabilize his attacks. Once Ozolinch left the Avalanche system, he was forced to improve his defensive game and that he did with Anaheim last season.

I really don't see much in the way of a Rafalski comparison. A comparison I would make, in a best case scenario type of thing would be Dan Boyle. Boyle, like Bergeron, uses his speed and loves to rush the puck. His defense needed some work and he needed a few years to really get everything together to the point where he could be allowed to play bigger minutes.
Getting icetime on a powerhouse team in the regular season doesn't mean as much as doing it on a team that's struggling to make the playoffs imo, that comparison actually works against Liles. The Avs have the luxury of throwing out Norris candidates to cover his backside and he gets to play with the best group of forwards since the mid 80's. One developmental slot there is o-p-e-n.

I don't even think Liles is a top 4 in Colorado and his atoi would seem to indicate that he isn't, but I haven't seen a lot of Avs games this year so I could be wrong. The fact that he's getting a lot of mins right now might just mean they're trying to get him into Calder contention - the 'Nux have played 1 more game than Col, they're 4 points back with 6 games to go, and they're struggling so 1st in the div is pretty well sewn up.

While it's premature to put Bergeron up there with Rafalski, putting Liles ahead of Bergie at this point is even more sketchy. The comparison between the two has been made here a few times b4 and their icetime per point is almost identical (Bg is doing slightly better) while Bergeron's +/- is quite a bit higher. Bg has been logging large minutes on a team that's charging hard to make the playoffs, his mins are the real deal and his atoi is over a minute higher. His contribution during the absolute hardest and most crucial part of the season has been mind-blowing.

There's absolutely no question in my mind right now about which of these two d-men I'd take right now given the option of a straight across deal. From my p-o-v it would be more like Liles and a 25th-35th draft pick for Bg.

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03-23-2004, 11:50 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by streetballer03
Im sorry you didnt read close enough but i said i haven't found any major flaws in his game. NO PLAYER IS FLAWLESS and i'm not uneducated enought to call a player flawless who isn't even in my top 150 in players in the NHL. I just mean that he doesn't turn over the puck all the time to the point where it becomes a habit (ie see Tom Poti). Name 5 players over +10 who are defensively inept. Do it, and I will gladly delete this thread.
Spezza, Stillman, Hejduk, Elias and Murray are far from being defensive specialist's. That's from just a quick glance at the stats.

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03-23-2004, 11:58 PM
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I think a good comparison for Bergeron right now is Nathan Dempsey. He produces offensively but is prone to stupid mistakes. He may improve his game, but I'd say it's a pretty fair comparison right now in terms of current game-play...

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03-24-2004, 01:28 AM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyped
I think a good comparison for Bergeron right now is Nathan Dempsey. He produces offensively but is prone to stupid mistakes. He may improve his game, but I'd say it's a pretty fair comparison right now in terms of current game-play...

Bergeron has actually toned down his defensive lapses since his recent call up. He isn't a rock like Smith or anything, but for a rookie d-man he is looking quite comfortable out there. He no longer makes long suicide passes and skates the puck up.

I am VERY please with his development this year. I think Bergeron will surprise a lot of people in the coming years

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03-24-2004, 02:05 AM
  #24
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Originally Posted by streetballer03
I think you need to define a definite flaw.

Bergeron has the flaws of many inexperienced/experienced defensemen. He has no definite flaws.

Flaws
Will never outpower a player over 6'2''+220lbs+ Big flaw but not a big problem. Has a lower center a of gravity and can hit pretty hard. I can't recount goals where the Oilers gave up a goal simply because MAB was ludicrously outpowered.

Inexperience is a huge flaw but in time this can be mended. He is dedicated and is willing train to be his best. He still gives the puck away but not to the point where it's costing the Oilers wins.

A definite flaw is something a fan can indicate when they think of the player. When you think of Andy Delmore and Tom Poti, your first prejucdice are that they are offensive defensemen who can't play defense. Being defensively inept is a definite flaw. Marc-Andre is good defensively albeit unspectacular but he can chip in offensively. No one out there can say that Mar-Andre can't play a lick at defense because that's just not true. What i mean by that is that fans don't focus on his defensive short commings every game.

Ex.
Jeff Woywitka has no definite flaws. He plays every facet of the game well but not at an elite level. He's an all around player.
So he has a huge flaw and a big flaw, but not a definite flaw according to your middle school definition???

Thanks for clearing that up....

Since you want to define a definite flaw, let's do that...

definite - clearly known, seen, or stated

So his inexperience is a flaw, and one could definitely argue that his inexperience is clearly known, making it a definite flaw.

Secondly, his size is a flaw. Well, once again my friend, I'd say that his size can be clearly seen. Definite flaw.

Thirdly, your flaw was making up a crappy definition of a "definite flaw."

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03-24-2004, 09:17 AM
  #25
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Originally Posted by Jamie
Spezza, Stillman, Hejduk, Elias and Murray are far from being defensive specialist's. That's from just a quick glance at the stats.
Have you seen Spezza this year? He back-checks like crazy. I wouldn't necessarily call the others "defensive specialists" (nor would I label Spezza with that moniker), but he said defensively INEPT, which none of those 5 clearly are. Hejduk was +52 last year. That just won't happen if you are defensively inept. I don't care how good your offense is.

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