I say similar things about Filppula as I used to say about Datsyuk - you can see the pieces are there but he just hasn't quite put it together yet. Like Pavel used to (and still does sometimes), he passes when he should shoot, he kicks the puck to the corner when he should take it to the net, etc.
I don't think the finished puzzle will be as good with Flip, but I think he can be a 25-30 goal, 70-80 point player. He has some work to do though.
I'd let Hossa, Samuelsson, Conklin and Chelios walk. Sign Leino and Kopecky (i trust he will be our future 4th line grinder). Bring up Howard and see what he can do.
Then i bring up our young guns and keep them in the lineup whole season. Also, using Filppula as 2nd line center for all season and see his true potential. I think Holmstrom is looking slower and is not as effective as he has been in front of the net, use him on PP but drop him to 3rd or 4th line.
First of all hardly anybody saw Hart-qualities in the 24-25 year old Datsyuk! Those days it was Hank if anybody who got that praise. And even he was considered a "solid offensive threat with Selke-potential for years to come".
No one saw the Big hardware (aka Hart/Art Ross/Conn Smythe) in either. Now Z has a Conn, is in the race for a 2nd and Dats was a Top-5 scorer (or near Art Ross contender) and is a Hart finalist.
Or look at Mule! He was considered a solid 3rd line contributor and grinder a mere 15, 16 months ago. Now he is turning heads as one of the better powerforwards and a Playoff-clutch-goalscoringmonster.
So I would not rule the potential to get up there out for Flip.
BUT there is one thing that will hold him back in my eyes: Opportunity! When Dats/Z came into the league the Top-Center spots were about to become available. Stevie was in the fall of his career, Feds was about to ship himself out of town. They suddenly got the chance to play first line minutes and be relied on offensively. They were given the chance as go to guys and they grew with that.
Flip has the two of them ahead of him. And both will be in Detroit for at least 5+ years. Even if one of them should go down on a long injury there will still be the other to carry the load and be the go-to guy. Flip will not be pushed into cold water to swim. He will not have the opportunity to suddenly carry a team that was a top-spender through the adversity of a suddenly imposed cap.
This is not a bad thing, but it will make the numbers less comparable. He is still a very good player and he might even reach Z/Dats status one day. But it will take him longer. He will not be brought into the spotlight. And spotlight makes superstars to some extent.
but not on C. dats/z won't play C at the same time in the future. mainly due to our strong C-core. fil proves this POs that he's a good 2nd line C while helm says hello on 3rd line. this gives this team the opportunity to move datsyuk to wing. and dats/z on one line, isn't that what we always wanted?
i'm a big fil fan, but i don't superstar potential in him. not offensively. but i think he could win a selke one day. he doesn't have the offense to be a superstar, but his defense will match dats/z.
but not on C. dats/z won't play C at the same time in the future. mainly due to our strong C-core. fil proves this POs that he's a good 2nd line C while helm says hello on 3rd line. this gives this team the opportunity to move datsyuk to wing. and dats/z on one line, isn't that what we always wanted?
i'm a big fil fan, but i don't superstar potential in him. not offensively. but i think he could win a selke one day. he doesn't have the offense to be a superstar, but his defense will match dats/z.
I did not neccessaryly mean that! But if Z goes down for a longer time as 1st center, what will happen? Will Fil be the goto guy for half a year or so as first line Center? No! Dats will get the call. And even IF he should be the Center with Dats on his wing the goto guy will still be Dats. If Dats goes down Z carries the load. So Fil will not get the chance to carry the team for say 3-4 months, let alone a season, and grow on that experience like Dats/Z did the year before and especially after the lockout. My thesis is that the two would be nowhere near where they are today would Stevie Y and Feds still be around and in their mid 30s today (like Z/Dats will be when Fil reaches their age today). They would be strong players but no superstars. They would not carry the team. They would not be the first PP, they would not play 20(+) minutes/game....
Player development besides a lot of other stuff always is a question of opportunities and "time windows". The time window in Detroit is one for a 2nd line center. Not a 1st. You can crack the first line as a right wing. But thats about it. You might become a superstar D-man if Lids calls it a career. Before? Tough task because the top-minutes and especially the leadership-role are eaten up...
but not on C. dats/z won't play C at the same time in the future. mainly due to our strong C-core. fil proves this POs that he's a good 2nd line C while helm says hello on 3rd line. this gives this team the opportunity to move datsyuk to wing. and dats/z on one line, isn't that what we always wanted?
i'm a big fil fan, but i don't superstar potential in him. not offensively. but i think he could win a selke one day. he doesn't have the offense to be a superstar, but his defense will match dats/z.
You never know. As I recall, nobody saw superstar potential in Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Franzen, or in Lidstrom when they got to Detroit. Datsyuk was projected as maybe a second line center with potential for 65 to 70 points. There are a lot of people that believe Filppula has unlimited potential if he can shed his confidence problem.
ah ok. agreed there. fil won't have to carry the load by himself, that's true. but i think for him it's the best to develop his game without getting all the attention. he seems to be a shy guy. not really a talker.
ah ok. agreed there. fil won't have to carry the load by himself, that's true. but i think for him it's the best to develop his game without getting all the attention. he seems to be a shy guy. not really a talker.
....which is what sets him miles apart from Dats...
No honestly: Point is: You never know! People tend to grow to tasks if the surrounding is right. We have seen that in Dats, in Z, in Mule, Cleary and others just recently.
I personally think that Fil, Hudler, Abby, Kroner and Ericsson (plus maybe Kindl, Emmerton) have that in them. They have a lot of talent, they play solid roles. But I think they could rise to much more if that was put onto them. Point is, they don't have to because the likes of Dats, Z, Mule, Lidstrom or Raffy are here for years to come (OK, years to come MIGHT not count for Lids. But he might well be round another 5 years at high level. Never know)
I'd let Hossa, Samuelsson, Conklin and Chelios walk. Sign Leino and Kopecky (i trust he will be our future 4th line grinder). Bring up Howard and see what he can do.
The more playoff-games we play, the more I want to keep Samuelsson.
The more playoff-games we play, the more I want to keep Samuelsson.
Well i'd hate to give him up aswell, but i dont know who else should go if not him.
And about Filppula, his offense wont get much better than now. If he gets good sniper to play with and the chemistry is there he can get alot of assists, as he is already amazing passer. His shot is terrible though and that needs to get better. His defense is solid as it is now. I would say he is poor man's datsyuk.
I say similar things about Filppula as I used to say about Datsyuk - you can see the pieces are there but he just hasn't quite put it together yet. Like Pavel used to (and still does sometimes), he passes when he should shoot, he kicks the puck to the corner when he should take it to the net, etc.
I don't think the finished puzzle will be as good with Flip, but I think he can be a 25-30 goal, 70-80 point player. He has some work to do though.
Datsyuk always showed amazing puck abilities and a keen offensive awareness. Same with Zetterberg. Flip hasn't ever show he can have their kind of puck skills.
Datsyuk always showed amazing puck abilities and a keen offensive awareness. Same with Zetterberg. Flip hasn't ever show he can have their kind of puck skills.
Like I said, I don't think the final product will have the same flash, but I can definitely see a lot of unrealized potential in Flip's game. When he plays aggressively with the puck, he makes tremendous moves. He just has to figure out how to play in that gear all the time and not get shy about trying things.
First of all hardly anybody saw Hart-qualities in the 24-25 year old Datsyuk! Those days it was Hank if anybody who got that praise. And even he was considered a "solid offensive threat with Selke-potential for years to come".
No one saw the Big hardware (aka Hart/Art Ross/Conn Smythe) in either. Now Z has a Conn, is in the race for a 2nd and Dats was a Top-5 scorer (or near Art Ross contender) and is a Hart finalist.
Or look at Mule! He was considered a solid 3rd line contributor and grinder a mere 15, 16 months ago. Now he is turning heads as one of the better powerforwards and a Playoff-clutch-goalscoringmonster.
So I would not rule the potential to get up there out for Flip.
BUT there is one thing that will hold him back in my eyes: Opportunity! When Dats/Z came into the league the Top-Center spots were about to become available. Stevie was in the fall of his career, Feds was about to ship himself out of town. They suddenly got the chance to play first line minutes and be relied on offensively. They were given the chance as go to guys and they grew with that.
Flip has the two of them ahead of him. And both will be in Detroit for at least 5+ years. Even if one of them should go down on a long injury there will still be the other to carry the load and be the go-to guy. Flip will not be pushed into cold water to swim. He will not have the opportunity to suddenly carry a team that was a top-spender through the adversity of a suddenly imposed cap.
This is not a bad thing, but it will make the numbers less comparable. He is still a very good player and he might even reach Z/Dats status one day. But it will take him longer. He will not be brought into the spotlight. And spotlight makes superstars to some extent.
Not so fast. Indeed there were people who were projecting Datsyuk as a first line center! When his last contract expired, the majority cried about his agent's demands for upwards of $5 million per season. I pulled out one of my NHL-wide states and salaries, and told them to read it and weep. Kronwall was also going to be driven to the airport 80% of the posters' trunks, too injury prone, no offensive ability AT ALL, nothing proven, blah blah blah... and look at him today. Franzen? You weren't here for the Great Modin Comparison? NN brought it up, I backed him up with Modin's history in Tampa, and insisted he'd be a 25-30G guy with the right IT. The 30G suggestion was considered as rather humorous by some our more notorious posters!
As for trophies? That's a bit tougher. You have to get to the Cup final to get a sniff at the Conn Smythe. No one knew what kind of team Holland could piece together under the cap. I admit that Z's upside wasn't as obvious to most however. It took that year in Sweden and then the Olympics for people to start seeing the true potential.
Edit: Neither player was used on the PK. Babs observed during the Olympics that he was missing something with Dats. THEN we saw the two-way genius emerge. Trophies are subjective as well. Lidstrom has been the best defenseman in more years than he has Norrises. It's also relative to who the other players are and how the media (mainly) perceives them. They eventually figure it out, but predicting that any one player will win it is really impossible (except a guy like AO or Crosby who might win more due to hype in the subjective categories).
As for the argument about the window of opportunity? Recall that Z spent his earlier years on Datsyuk's wing (2 kids and a goat...). I don't think this part of your argument is very solid. The Wings are notorious for giving guys a shot who create/demand an opportunity-- not a development in progress in the NHL. Once they have the shot, they have to fight to keep it. Datsyuk became the #1 center because he was the best guy for the job. Furthermore, Datsyuk always, always created chances, whether for himself or his linemates. His problem was just not shooting more. Flip doesn't create anything close to the chances Datsyuk did from almost the very start. (Just remember that Brett Hull declared he was the perhaps the best player he'd ever had as a linemate.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deek
You never know. As I recall, nobody saw superstar potential in Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Franzen, or in Lidstrom when they got to Detroit. Datsyuk was projected as maybe a second line center with potential for 65 to 70 points. There are a lot of people that believe Filppula has unlimited potential if he can shed his confidence problem.
See above. I don't remember Lidstrom's early days, but he was the runner up to the Calder. That had to grab some attention, and if it didn't, people needed to get their heads out of certain places.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro
Like I said, I don't think the final product will have the same flash, but I can definitely see a lot of unrealized potential in Flip's game. When he plays aggressively with the puck, he makes tremendous moves. He just has to figure out how to play in that gear all the time and not get shy about trying things.
One problem with Flip's game is that he doesn't have the deke/dangle skills. Datsyuk is a small (extremely scrawny) guy. Yet he can play big because he's like molten metal out there. He just oozes into openings. Any guy trying to hit him ends up looking for his jock strap instead. Flip doesn't have that skill, and never will. He thus needs size and strength to play through some of the situations. That's the main thing that will determine his potential-- how resilient and strong he can be on his skates.
ah ok. agreed there. fil won't have to carry the load by himself, that's true. but i think for him it's the best to develop his game without getting all the attention. he seems to be a shy guy. not really a talker.
This. I feel the reason Detroit is soo good at developing players because they don't put pressure on any of their players to produce, but they do put pressure on them to play defense. Players are put in a position that they can develop offensively but won't be put into a scoring situation until they prove they can handle it.
Datsyuk became the #1 center because he was the best guy for the job. Furthermore, Datsyuk always, always created chances, whether for himself or his linemates. His problem was just not shooting more. Flip doesn't create anything close to the chances Datsyuk did from almost the very start. (Just remember that Brett Hull declared he was the perhaps the best player he'd ever had as a linemate.)
Good points. Anyone who saw Datsyuk in his first few seasons could see that he was going to be a stud. I don't think their will ever be a player that will come into the league as a total unknown and do the things he did.
Those were just in his first few seasons, everyone who watched the wings new he was going to be a stud. Filpulla does have some promise, but you really can't compare it to Datsyuk. I can see Filpulla becoming a first liner, but if he does he will be much different from Pav.
Fugu: Yes, there were guys who projected that. Actually Kira had him pegged as Hart winner 2003-2017 straight away
But general consensus was MUCH less. You have the one or the other fan praising a player every time. Someone saw him early, saw him in great games first, saw him in Juniors or Europe... Like Ti-Girl claiming Helm is a player before we all knew his name even after he was drafted and others claiming similar for Dick Axelson or Anderson from Sweden...
That proves right here and wrong there. Surely same things were to hear about guys who never even crossed the pond. I can remember having read great things about prospects whose names I have a hard time to remember. Read Andreas Sundin, Tomas Kollar, Jamtin, Blatak, Tolsa, Valtonen, Steen....
But honestly: No matter how great he played: Do you honestly think Dats would be the teams first center if Stevie Y was 35 today (same age differential to Dats as the latter is to Fil), still playing some of his best hockey and running the PP and PK?! Where would the minutes come from? Would he bump Stevie to 2nd line? That is the 1999/2000 Yzerman!! Never ever would that happen! What if a 33-year old Fedorov was still around on top (age-equivalent of Z today)? You have to get the chance to get the top minutes and the mindset in yourself to be the guy who has to get the job done. Not look to the topstars to emerge. Become the topstar yourself. Remember Stevie talking about "growing pains" after the early exits in the POs right after the lockout. Thats exactly what I am talking about. Fil will not get that learning experience until he is in his mid 30s as it looks. If he ever will. Take the beating, take the blame. Learn to be a leader. Stevie received that. Dats was "a playoff choker" for years and so on! I truly believe you need that to become a superstar calibre player. See Malkin in last years Finals and this year....
Pavel Datsyuk $6,700,000
Henrik Zetterberg $6,083,333
Johan Franzen $3,954,545
Valtteri Filppula $3,000,000
Daniel Cleary $2,800,000
Tomas Holmstrom $2,250,000
Jiri Hudler $2,250,000 Same cap hit as Holmstrom
Kris Draper $1,583,333
Kirk Maltby $883,333
Ville Leino $875,000
Darren Helm $599,444
Tomas Kopecky $500,000 / or close to it.
Nicklas Lidstrom $7,450,000
Brian Rafalaski $6,000,000
Brad Stuart $3,750,000
Niklas Kronwall $3,000,000
Jonathan Ericsson $900,000
Brett Lebda $650,000
Derek Meech $483,333
Chris Osgood $1,416,666
Jimmy Howard $716,666
SALARY CAP $56,700,000
PAYROLL $55,845,653
CAP ROOM $854,347 Leaves room for injury call ups.
So we would have to let Sammy walk and hopefully trade Lilja for a 3rd/4th
Leaves us enough room to trade for Kovalchuk at the deadline to man the right point on the PP. (This means we will have to give up our first round 30 overall pick next year)
Pavel Datsyuk $6,700,000
Henrik Zetterberg $6,083,333
Johan Franzen $3,954,545
Valtteri Filppula $3,000,000
Daniel Cleary $2,800,000
Tomas Holmstrom $2,250,000
Jiri Hudler $2,250,000 Same cap hit as Holmstrom
Kris Draper $1,583,333
Kirk Maltby $883,333
Ville Leino $875,000
Darren Helm $599,444
Tomas Kopecky $500,000 / or close to it.
Nicklas Lidstrom $7,450,000
Brian Rafalaski $6,000,000
Brad Stuart $3,750,000
Niklas Kronwall $3,000,000
Jonathan Ericsson $900,000
Brett Lebda $650,000
Derek Meech $483,333
Chris Osgood $1,416,666
Jimmy Howard $716,666
SALARY CAP $56,700,000
PAYROLL $55,845,653
CAP ROOM $854,347 Leaves room for injury call ups.
So we would have to let Sammy walk and hopefully trade Lilja for a 3rd/4th
Leaves us enough room to trade for Kovalchuk at the deadline to man the right point on the PP. (This means we will have to give up our first round 30 overall pick next year)
I dunno why not sign sammy for about Hudler dollars or some other scrub.
Then package Hudler+1st+ x for Future considerations.
The future considerations could be Kovalchuk at the deadline.
Fugu: Yes, there were guys who projected that. Actually Kira had him pegged as Hart winner 2003-2017 straight away
Not because of his hockey skill. The dear lady was smitten.
On the other hand, there were a handful of posters that liked him because of his hockey skills first.
Quote:
But general consensus was MUCH less. You have the one or the other fan praising a player every time. Someone saw him early, saw him in great games first, saw him in Juniors or Europe... Like Ti-Girl claiming Helm is a player before we all knew his name even after he was drafted and others claiming similar for Dick Axelson or Anderson from Sweden...
Would Ti-girl be angry if I said she was smitten too?
Quote:
But honestly: No matter how great he played: Do you honestly think Dats would be the teams first center if Stevie Y was 35 today (same age differential to Dats as the latter is to Fil), still playing some of his best hockey and running the PP and PK?! Where would the minutes come from? Would he bump Stevie to 2nd line? That is the 1999/2000 Yzerman!! Never ever would that happen! What if a 33-year old Fedorov was still around on top (age-equivalent of Z today)? You have to get the chance to get the top minutes and the mindset in yourself to be the guy who has to get the job done. Not look to the topstars to emerge. Become the topstar yourself. Remember Stevie talking about "growing pains" after the early exits in the POs right after the lockout. Thats exactly what I am talking about. Fil will not get that learning experience until he is in his mid 30s as it looks. If he ever will. Take the beating, take the blame. Learn to be a leader. Stevie received that. Dats was "a playoff choker" for years and so on! I truly believe you need that to become a superstar calibre player. See Malkin in last years Finals and this year....
I agree to a certain extent. A guy has to good enough to get that shot, but if you've got a 30 yo Yzerman or Feds established, it's going to be harder to break through. At the same time, mgt wouldn't would waste their time, or that player's career, by developing and expecting that type of curve. They'd be sacrificed in trades to get at the other missing pieces.
I honestly like Flip, lest people believe otherwise, but I still don't think he's Datsyukian material. Malkin and Crosby would bump whoever it was that was established in Pittsburgh after a year or two... it's unavoidable.
After this postseason, I would still say Bye-Bye to:
Samuelsson . He continues to screw up our offensive rushes and plays. Especially on the PP. This postseason Sammy was brutal, despite scoring some good goals. Too many negative offensive plays (screwing them up) than positive offensive plays (hitting the net for a scoring chance).
Hossa. Sure he will probably gel better in his second year on the team, but watching him struggle for chemistry all year (except his brief production with Filpulla) and his salary expectations make him marginal as a possible future Wing. Throw in his scoring drought in the SCF as well as inability to pick up the slack of his hurt teammates, despite being healthy, and he will cost more to keep than the benefit we receive.
Lebda. So Lilja may not return, and I still don't care. Lebda has been brutal. Simply terrible during the playoffs. His brainfarts are at the root of many Pittsburgh goals in the SCF. A turnover machine.
Chelios. A pasture in Chicago awaits.
Hudler. A tough choice, but Hudlum is not offensively effective, and shows little defensive upside beyond marginal improvement. If we can get a team to try and offer him a deal, we could snag some picks. I think it is only 50% at best another team makes an offer on him.
Conklin. Howard must replace him as we have to bring him up. Osgood's postseason performance sealed Conklin's fate, if it was ever in doubt. No cap benefit though, as Howard earns more than Conklin.
Matlby. He might retire, who knows? He played well in the postseason, but definitely is not as much of a force as in the past. The Wings won't trade him, but they may ask him to hang up the skates for good.
Should the wings pursue a top 6 forward with a right handed shot?
One thing I was thinking about was that all our top players are left handed shots, and during these playoffs, there were a number of plays, where I think if the forward had a right handed shot instead of left handed, our chance of burying the puck would be greatly increased. We did have Sammy as a right handed shot, but I think we can all agree he isn't the answer we are looking for in the top 6.
I know it isn't a super big deal, but having a right handed shot scorer in our top 6 might be a minor thing that ends up helping out significantly in certain scoring situations.
Are there any right hand shots available this free agency? thoughts?
