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Old
05-23-2009, 10:40 AM
  #51
nuck
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Originally Posted by ugotmybeef View Post
Camms is probably looking for 5.5 and some team will give it to him. A longer term might get you at him for 5 million. And I was talking about Ilya Kovalchuk. He would be our most entertaining and best player in our modern history.
15 Dany Heatley L 77 41 48 89 58 -8
13 Vyacheslav Kozlov L 79 21 49 70 66 -10
17 Ilya Kovalchuk L 81 38 29 67 57 -24

17 Ilya Kovalchuk L 78 52 46 98 68 -6
9 Marc Savard C 82 28 69 97 100 +7
18 Marian Hossa R 80 39 53 92 67 +17

18 Marian Hossa R 82 43 57 100 49 +18
13 Vyacheslav Kozlov L 81 28 52 80 36 +9
17 Ilya Kovalchuk L 82 42 34 76 66 -2

13 Mike Cammalleri 1982-06-08 24 C 81 34 46 80 48 +5
24 Alexander Frolov 1982-06-19 24 L 82 35 36 71 34 -8
11 Anze Kopitar 1987-08-24 19 C 72 20 41 61 24 -12


Most years with talented team mates Kovalchuk carries a fatter minus. In fact he has never been better than a -2, even when they won their division. He plays very well but it is mostly in one direction. I wouldn't want a $7 million pp specialist and a career minus guy is not helping you win games at even strength. Take a player with a bit less flash who plays harder without the puck. Not suggesting that is Cammalleri although the above 80pt +5 year was managed with an LA club that was 3rd last in the league. No excuse for Kovy that his clubs were bad.


Last edited by nuck: 05-23-2009 at 10:45 AM.
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Old
05-23-2009, 10:42 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
You actually think the Leafs are lucky?
Not at all ..

While sitting on my couch on the West coast and watching the ACC jammed to the rafters and Fans cheering on Boyd Devereaux hattricks I realize there is no motivation to rebuild, but rather renovate. Each season like the next one, just go on out and buy a few shiny new toys to entertain the MOB, and all its well with MLSE. If the Fans are happy MLSE is happy.

The historical record shows that in the past 12+ years no team that ever entered the NHL playoffs in 6-8th positions in either conference ended their Cinderella season with a Cup win. So luck not only for the Leafs but all teams runs out rather quickly once the real games are played. Sneaking into the playoffs is all the luck that most seasons hold.

The Cup winner has come from top 5-6 usually division champ teams in the regular season .. Luck is not how you win President trophies and conference championships. You build championship teams but you buy short-term often fragile success and luck runs out every time.

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05-23-2009, 10:44 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by dynrehab View Post
What I'd like to see is a 4-5 year contract, and allow the Leafs to build a really good young 2nd line, who can replace the twins in 4 years. If they trade Kubina and MVR and get some extra depth in the system, sign JayBo

Sedin-Sedin-Stempniak
Kulemin-Grabovsky-Hagman
Blake-Mitchell-Poni
Stajan-Mayers-Bozak

Kaberle-Finger
Schenn-Not JayBo
White-Strahlman-Frogren-Oreskevic

You still have Dido, Strahlberg, Tlusty, Hansen, 2009 1st, 2 2009 2nds, and whatever you get for Kubina and MVR with a focus on building the 2nd line. They might also look to trade Poni-Stajan-White etc for some added depth.

This can easily fit into the salary cap this year, and Poni, Mayers, Stempniak, Toskala, will come off the salary cap next year to give the Leafs some flexibility.
Bouwmeister does not like media attention.

He would hate Toronto.

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05-23-2009, 10:47 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Not at all ..

While sitting on my couch on the West coast and watching the ACC jammed to the rafters and Fans cheering on Boyd Devereaux hattricks I realize there is no motivation to rebuild, but rather renovate. Each season like the next one, just go on out and buy a few shiny new toys to entertain the MOB, and all its well with MLSE. If the Fans are happy MLSE is happy.

The historical record shows that in the past 12+ years no team that ever entered the NHL playoffs in 6-8th positions in either conference ended their Cinderella season with a Cup win. So luck not only for the Leafs but all teams runs out rather quickly once the real games are played. Sneaking into the playoffs is all the luck that most seasons hold.

The Cup winner has come from top 5-6 usually division champ teams in the regular season .. Luck is not how you win President trophies and conference championships. You build championship teams but you buy short-term often fragile success and luck runs out every time.
IMO, Burke won't do a slow rebuild.

Has nothing to do with the fans or you or I.

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05-23-2009, 10:48 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Sadly in Toronto that is what rebuild means..

Assembling a team as good as money can buy, and hope Burke's sprinkling of fairy dust doesn't see the team turn into a pumpkin at midnight, as Leaf fans watch the Cinderella story unfold each season.

Clearly the route the Pens and Hawks took to the final 4 this year, not something of interest in Toronto.. After all why try and build a winner when you have all the money you need to buy as much success you need to make Leaf Nation happy..
While those 2 teams bottom-fed for several years, and got lucky in the draft lottery, they are both facing massive salary cap problems in the near future. Carolina is playing with 1 lottery player, and detroit hasn't had a lottery pick in years, and neither team is facing the same salary cap problems. Each has also won a Stanley Cup in the past few years too.

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05-23-2009, 10:51 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Bouwmeister does not like media attention.

He would hate Toronto.
Agreed. Zero chance he comes to TO. Florida is a better club so he won't move for the winning. He doesn't like media or marketing himself so he won't go to a large market period. Edmonton is my pick since they have cap room and a GM that wants to make a splash. Most of the rumours have been western Canada, but I don't think Calgary or Vancouver can find the money. He isn't coming to Toronto any more than Hossa.

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05-23-2009, 10:55 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by nuck View Post
15 Dany Heatley L 77 41 48 89 58 -8
13 Vyacheslav Kozlov L 79 21 49 70 66 -10
17 Ilya Kovalchuk L 81 38 29 67 57 -24

17 Ilya Kovalchuk L 78 52 46 98 68 -6
9 Marc Savard C 82 28 69 97 100 +7
18 Marian Hossa R 80 39 53 92 67 +17

18 Marian Hossa R 82 43 57 100 49 +18
13 Vyacheslav Kozlov L 81 28 52 80 36 +9
17 Ilya Kovalchuk L 82 42 34 76 66 -2

13 Mike Cammalleri 1982-06-08 24 C 81 34 46 80 48 +5
24 Alexander Frolov 1982-06-19 24 L 82 35 36 71 34 -8
11 Anze Kopitar 1987-08-24 19 C 72 20 41 61 24 -12


Most years with talented team mates Kovalchuk carries a fatter minus. In fact he has never been better than a -2, even when they won their division. He plays very well but it is mostly in one direction. I wouldn't want a $7 million pp specialist and a career minus guy is not helping you win games at even strength. Take a player with a bit less flash who plays harder without the puck. Not suggesting that is Cammalleri although the above 80pt +5 year was managed with an LA club that was 3rd last in the league. No excuse for Kovy that his clubs were bad.
so you shouldn't build your team around a - player. Anze Kopitar and Dustin Brown have been minus players in their career so far, I guess you don't build around those guys as well. Kovalchuk is no defensive stewart, but I'll rather pay him than the Sedins. Kovalchuk's minus stat is also a reflection on the team he plays. But the point is the time is not right now, we'll just be doing what we do best the last few years, ensure that our playoff drought goes to 50 years. I guess that's what Leaf fans want.

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05-23-2009, 10:58 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
IMO, Burke won't do a slow rebuild.

Has nothing to do with the fans or you or I.
That is exactly why MLSE needed to give the Fans the perception they hired a Super GM in Burke..

Use his influence and power and experience to convince UFA players to take MLSE $$$$ and come and play in Toronto, despite the long losing record. High-end UFA players usually prefer to join winning teams not bottom feeders.

If your plan was building through the draft you would be spending your investment dollars on the best scouts money can buy and focus on drafting and developing. You don't need a $4 mil/season GM to allow the amateur scouting staff to control the destiny and future of the team..

Regular season profit money is maxed out, so the only way to increase profit now is playoff games, and you do that quickly by buying UFA players that make instant impact.

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05-23-2009, 10:58 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Bouwmeister does not like media attention.

He would hate Toronto.
Unfortunately I don't have much insight into what these players are actually thinking. Rumor is JayBo wants to go to Western Canada, but the Flames, Canucks and Oilers have the same media idiots as Toronto, including Sun newspapers, Sports Radio stations, Sportsnet etc. If he really hated the media, why would he want to play anywhere in Canada?

Honestly, I don't think he will come to Toronto, but it's just my wish list. I'm ok with trying to win now provided it doesn't include wasting assets (players or picks) and would be happy to see him trade a few guys away for young players or draft picks, and a few key signings, and reaching for the playoffs now.

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05-23-2009, 10:58 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by dynrehab View Post
While those 2 teams bottom-fed for several years, and got lucky in the draft lottery, they are both facing massive salary cap problems in the near future. Carolina is playing with 1 lottery player, and detroit hasn't had a lottery pick in years, and neither team is facing the same salary cap problems. Each has also won a Stanley Cup in the past few years too.
the fact that they will face salary cap problems is because they are loaded with so much talent! I will take that problem anyday

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05-23-2009, 10:59 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by dynrehab View Post
While those 2 teams bottom-fed for several years, and got lucky in the draft lottery, they are both facing massive salary cap problems in the near future. Carolina is playing with 1 lottery player, and detroit hasn't had a lottery pick in years, and neither team is facing the same salary cap problems. Each has also won a Stanley Cup in the past few years too.
People need to let go of the Detroit example. They have two lottery quality forwards drafted 10 years ago and a HOF defenseman drafted 20 years ago. No club has been able to duplicate this luck since then, including Detroit.

If a club is facing cap problems because they have a surplus of superstars that is a pretty nice predicament. Easy solution, trade Malkin for 7 first round picks.

I have no comeback to the Carolina example. A franchise built old school and with surprisingly few stars. Although you could argue that is the type of club the Leafs were trying to build around Gilmour and Sundin.

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05-23-2009, 10:59 AM
  #62
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IMO, Burke won't do a slow rebuild.

Has nothing to do with the fans or you or I.
According to who, you? I know he wants to contend for the playoffs as soon as possible, but he's not going to go ruin the plan to do so. He missed the playoffs 4 straight years and started building a nucleus of players to build his team in Vancouver. Getting a high first rounder this year and next year will set this team well plus including some youngsters getting prime opportunities. In Anaheim, he already had a good group of players to build around so he signed some free agents and trades to help the team. If you want a big name UFA, wait till next year when we're be closer to finishing the rebuild (but will continue to draft afterwards).

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05-23-2009, 11:03 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
How many times will Leafs' fans be waiting for that bus that never comes?

You strike when talent is available or you end up getting players past their best before date when no one else is offering them good contracts.

Waiting for Nash, who made the playoffs with his team for the first time with all the young talent there starting to make a difference? Might be waiting a long time.

Either go long term rebuild (Burke and patience???) or take a shot at one or two of:

Hosssa
Cammaleri
Gaborik
H. Sedin
D. Sedin
You've pretty much nailed it on the head. Burke DOES NOT have patience; that doesn't mean he's going to over spend this summer, and i'm sure he fully understands that Nash will - most likely - not make it to UFA.

IMO the most likely player to end up here is Cammallier, but if the Sedins do make it to UFA he'll target them as well.

If all else fails he'll be looking for a team to dump salary as a way to pick up a #1 center.

Teams that are deep at Center and near the cap:

Pens - Staal
Boston - Bergeron
Flyers - Briere (i hope not, but you never know)

All these Centers played 2nd and 3rd line duties most of the year, and I can see Burke making a run at one of these guys to fill a need.

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05-23-2009, 11:21 AM
  #64
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Another reason why I think Burke will target someone like the Sedins are because of the growing trend of having at least 2 first line Centers for teams.

You look at all the successful teams and they have at least 2 first line C.

Detroit (Zetterberg and Datsyuk)
Pittsburgh (Crosby and Malkin)
Philly (Carter, Richards and Briere)

Other teams like Tampa (Vinny and Stamkos), New York (Gomez and Drury), and Dallas (Rebeiro and Richards) have also gone to that route.

I think one of the reason Burke said he wanted to target Tavares is so that he can have two top caliber Centers to build his team around. Burke has mentioned Duchene and Tavares both on occasion, so I'm guessing those two are his real targets. I hope it really happens.
BOTH Duchene and Tavares would be just .. I don't even know the words to describe how happy I would be.

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05-23-2009, 11:26 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
IMO, Burke won't do a slow rebuild.

Has nothing to do with the fans or you or I.
Well the new CBA gives a sharp/good GM the opportunity to succeed without a slow rebuild method .. There is more then one way to skin a Cat.

With the UFA age dropping to age 27 and/or 7 years of service which could make players UFA's at age 25 if they start at age 18 like a Bouwmeester this season..

You also don't have to dress a team that finishes in the lottery, as you can also with a good GM trade your way into the TOP 5 and draft in that spot like we saw last season. Burke has made it clear that he plans on moving up in hopes of getting Tavares.

Now the best GM worth his salary, is one that can burn the candle at both ends, use his assets (picks, prospects and players under contract) and move up aggressively in the entry draft from where you finish and then replace your NHL talent via UFA season that begins a week after the draft. Its not mandatory to do the time at the bottom under the new CBA.

Draft high-end talent in the draft and fill and replace via UFA season. Do that through trades on Draft day and buying the right players on the open market on Free agent day.

Burke only has be a good salesman to complete trades and lure key UFA players to accomplish and renovate verses rebuild plan. Toronto being a flag ship original 6 franchise and home for a lot of Ontario born players, adds to the sales pitch and increase your odds of UFA success. This is what I am hoping is the case.

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05-23-2009, 11:35 AM
  #66
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Well the new CBA gives a sharp/good GM the opportunity to succeed without a slow rebuild method .. There is more then one way to skin a Cat.

With the UFA age dropping to age 27 and/or 7 years of service which could make players UFA's at age 25 if they start at age 18 like a Bouwmeester this season..

You also don't have to dress a team that finishes in the lottery, as you can also with a good GM trade your way into the TOP 5 and draft in that spot like we saw last season. Burke has made it clear that he plans on moving up in hopes of getting Tavares.

Now the best GM worth his salary, is one that can burn the candle at both ends, use his assets (picks, prospects and players under contract) and move up aggressively in the entry draft from where you finish and then replace your NHL talent via UFA season that begins a week after the draft. Its not mandatory to do the time at the bottom under the new CBA.

Draft high-end talent in the draft and fill and replace via UFA season. Do that through trades on Draft day and buying the right players on the open market on Free agent day.

Burke only has be a good salesman to complete trades and lure key UFA players to accomplish and renovate verses rebuild plan. Toronto being a flag ship original 6 franchise and home for a lot of Ontario born players, adds to the sales pitch and increase your odds of UFA success. This is what I am hoping is the case.
I thought you wanted a slow rebuild?

I personally think we have the foundation, we just need to add 3 important players to take our team to the next level.

Either:

Tavares - Cammalleri - Komisarek

or

Sedin - Sedin - MSP/Kane

Depending on who we draft should set Burke's motives for UFA signings. If he can draft Tavares I believe he'll target Cammy as a support winger/finisher.

If we don't get Tavares, I think he'll look to the Twins to bring the first line scoring, to help with our 7th overall pick. That could be anyone from MSP or Kane (if he drafts a forward)

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05-23-2009, 11:40 AM
  #67
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The Sedins are a very talented pair and make the players around them better. The only reservation i have is regarding the contract length and term obviously. I dont want to be adding a couple more long term "Big Money" contracts with the Cap decreasing in the near future.
I agree. I'm not against adding them but it really depends on what the numbers are to bring them in. I still see them signing in Vancouver though. The Canucks don't really have the depth to just let them walk.

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05-23-2009, 11:43 AM
  #68
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i'll pass on the Sedins.just wake me up 10 mins before Draft Day coverage on the tv starts.

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05-23-2009, 11:46 AM
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Mess i think you need to give burke a tiny bit more credit.... getting Bozak and Hansen was a very nice accomplishment, one which addressed our empty cupboard.... not that it was as dry as the 'experts' had everyone believing.

Tlusty, Stralman, & even Kully are all good prospects, who have taken the next step in development
Schenn is a prospect of the best type, and instant NHLer who is only going to get better (a la steven stamkos)
Then we have a bunch of players who are question marks, but not to be confused with 3rd line prospects, we have enough players with the right stuff that a few will turn out very good:
Stralberg
Bozak
Hansen
Mitchell
Mitchell
Gunnarson
Berry
Slaney
Ruegsegger (sp?)
stef
hayes
Rau
& whoever i cannot think of.

we just need to make sure these kids get what they need to develop properly. Bozak could be a real gem really soon, and hansen could be a great power-forward a few years down the road... but what will really happen is more exciting then the hypothetical.

lets hope that 3 of our list turn out as top 6 guys, 1 top 4 d man, a bunch of trade bait, and who knows, 2012 we might be a deep team, in nhl depth not prospect.

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05-23-2009, 11:59 AM
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I thought you wanted a slow rebuild?
My point was "If you can do the crime, you don't necessarily need to do the time" ..

Burke wants Tavares, and if he is able to trade up into a top 2 position and get him, that has the same effect as an 82 game poor season and finishing in that spot naturally..

Its still a rebuild in terms of drafting high and adding high-end young talent to build around ..

Now I don't believe for 1 second that Jay Bow is coming to Toronto as a UFA, but just for making a point here purposes .. If Leafs trade their pick #7 + Kaberle and move up in the draft and then can sign a young 25 year old UFA dman like Jay Bow as a replacement for Kabs. Then its the best of both Worlds and still a rebuild process.

Trade up at the draft and replenish your lost vets via UFA season .. Rinse and repeat as needed..

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05-23-2009, 12:00 PM
  #71
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I agree. I'm not against adding them but it really depends on what the numbers are to bring them in. I still see them signing in Vancouver though. The Canucks don't really have the depth to just let them walk.
this is where i disagree... they are a UFA away from being fine... they have tons of cap, and a decent foundation.... they need a big middle man and a puck moving d man...

say they land Jbo... that would address their biggest need, and allow Ohlund to walk.
they have Cody who by all signs seems to be nhl ready (and a top 6 at that)... and grabner looks to have earned himself a shot.... add in the rumour about the neids going there

& then even w/o a UFA forward (and they will get at least one):
Burrows - Kesler - Bernier
Demitra - Hodgson - Wellwood (2M, both will take draws)
Hansen - Rob Neid (2M) - Raymond
Rypien - Johnson - Hordichuk

with a very nice blueline:
Bieksa - Jbo (6.5M)
Mitchell - Scotty Neid (6M)
Salo - whoever they don't trade ( Davsion, edler , etc).

i would be the first to say they need some star power up front, however having 2 extremely gifted dmen will make the forwards look a ton better, and having some skill players for the pp (cody & wellwood) will make it produce consistently.. they would have an excellent pk as well... and gerbnew could challange/replace demitra/injuries.

but in reality they will sign a big forward UFA as well, @ least koviu, maybe gaborick/hossa/cammy... add in what they can bring in for salo/edler.... for w/e reason they are an attractive franchise right now, and they work/live in what might be the best city in N/A (if you can deal with some rain)... consistent management & good goaltending only helps their argument.

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05-23-2009, 12:20 PM
  #72
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Unfortunately I don't have much insight into what these players are actually thinking. Rumor is JayBo wants to go to Western Canada, but the Flames, Canucks and Oilers have the same media idiots as Toronto, including Sun newspapers, Sports Radio stations, Sportsnet etc. If he really hated the media, why would he want to play anywhere in Canada?

Honestly, I don't think he will come to Toronto, but it's just my wish list. I'm ok with trying to win now provided it doesn't include wasting assets (players or picks) and would be happy to see him trade a few guys away for young players or draft picks, and a few key signings, and reaching for the playoffs now.
There was an article this season when JayBo was playing in Edmonton.

Insiders said he has no interest in suiting up in a market where he'll be scrutinized. They mentioned how poorly it went for Lupul at home in Edmonton. It was said this is exactly what they said JayBo would want to avoid.

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05-23-2009, 12:27 PM
  #73
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This is the one thing I hope Burke does not follow through on...

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05-23-2009, 01:42 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
My point was "If you can do the crime, you don't necessarily need to do the time" ..

Burke wants Tavares, and if he is able to trade up into a top 2 position and get him, that has the same effect as an 82 game poor season and finishing in that spot naturally..

Its still a rebuild in terms of drafting high and adding high-end young talent to build around ..

Now I don't believe for 1 second that Jay Bow is coming to Toronto as a UFA, but just for making a point here purposes .. If Leafs trade their pick #7 + Kaberle and move up in the draft and then can sign a young 25 year old UFA dman like Jay Bow as a replacement for Kabs. Then its the best of both Worlds and still a rebuild process.

Trade up at the draft and replenish your lost vets via UFA season .. Rinse and repeat as needed..
I'm all for trading up and grabing Tavares or Duchene. I also think the package we'd put together to trade up is replacable through UFA (like you've said) and i also agree that Jay-bo isn't coming here.

Its going to get interesting this summer, because you know Burke is dying to change the blue-print of this franchise.

I wouldn't be the least surprised to see at least 5-7 current roster players traded this summer.

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05-23-2009, 02:59 PM
  #75
Poggemon Destiny*
 
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The only ones we should be signing is Beauchemin and/or Komisarek although I think some retard GM is going to offer Komisarek like 5.5 mil which he doesn't deserve. So, assuming they come at fair value we should try to sign one or both especially if we trade away Kabs and/or Kubina. The year after we should be thinking of Nash long term. That's about it. We souldn't be thinking about the Sedins or Gaborik but rather Duchene, B Schenn, etc.

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