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Hainsey and Hossa to be traded soon?

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Old
03-23-2004, 11:45 PM
  #1
not quite yoda
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Hainsey and Hossa to be traded soon?

Well, Hossa and Hainsey have been in the organization for a while. Both have had their shots with the big team. Both have looked good at times. Both are now in the AHL raking up OK numbers but nothing spectacular. Both were drafted in the 1st round of the 2000 Draft.

They are getting on in age. Next season, when the time comes for the waiver draft in the fall, I am under the distinct impression that BOTH Hossa and Hainsey must be protected by the team. If they are not protected, we risk (and probably will be) losing them both to other teams.

Looking at the left side of our D: Souray and Markov will be protected. I also like Bouillon's chances. Beauchemin is coming on as well. This would leave no room for Hainsey. Sending him down to the AHL would also force us to expose him on waivers. The team is also looking well at forward. Of course Juneau, Dackell and Perreault will likely not be offered new contracts. This opens up spots (assuming we don't go after UFAs) for youth. However you would think that Plekanec, Perezhogin, Higgins and Kastsitsyn have priority over Hossa.

All this to say that the time has come to make a decision on Hossa and Hainsey. Will Gainey make room for them with the big club? If the answer is no, then we risk losing them both in the fall.

I would think that the time has come to trade them both. For veterans? other prospects? draft picks? I don't know. But it is clear that decision day is coming. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see them shipped out on Entry Draft day.

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03-23-2004, 11:59 PM
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I'd keep Hossa.

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03-24-2004, 12:13 AM
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This might be sound a little on the fence, but like always I think it will come down to training camps.

Kastsitsyn needs to be signed and brought over still and will need adjustment. Perezhogin's progress has improved exponentially over the course of the year, but again training camp will be huge for him.

Hossa has advantages on players though. He is more physically mature, he is defensively aware and has NHL experience. Also he is being groomed as a winger, something he has on Plekanec, a position Montreal has two top line centres. Pleks is more of an offensive player, and does he fit the checking line centre role. Higgins is another close, but is he ready to be on the top lines or checking line, or is he better in Hamilton than playing 4th line.

Hainsey has played well by all accounts in Hamilton. His big advantage of someone like Beauchemin is his upside. Something management I am sure would like him to fulfill, and by accounts his value isn't high, so it might be better to hold onto him.

Montreal also has a lot of borderline players. Sundstrom might not be qualified at near 2 million, Dowd is no guarentee, Dackell, Juneau, Perreault, even guys like Langdon and my wager is Ward is probably on the bubble.On defense add Quintal who looks to be losing his spot to Komisarek, and Bouillon and Hainsey could split 6-7 role.

There are a lot of possible openings, but also a lot of questions. It will be interesting to see how management handles it, and who steps up into these roles.

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03-24-2004, 12:50 AM
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These guys are still young. No way we should give up on them, unless a deal for a star comes along.

If you look at Brisebois and Hainsey, there isn't much difference between the two of them as far as styles go. I would hope that Hainsey does not have problems with the puck in his own end like Brisebois has in his career though and that Hainsey would have a bit more offensive upside. With the other physical guys on our defense, Hainsey could be a nice puck mover for us. He might have to move to the right side tho. I forget who said it, I think it was Darren Pang, but he said a good defense needs to have at least 4 guys who can move the puck well (especially with the fast, skilled team we are building) and right now by my count we really only have two guys who can be counted on consistently, but Bouillon is turning into a nice puck-mover.

Hossa is less tough, but more skilled than Ponikarovsky and look at what he's doing in Toronto. We should just wait I think. Hossa can be a nice player for us and give us some options for trades if we develop him ourself (he will be a more valuable commodity that way). Not that we would necessarily trade him, but if he pans out, somebody else could be dealt perhaps to fill in any holes we will have.

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03-24-2004, 12:54 AM
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Hainsey will be kept over Beauchemin and Bouillon unless he asks for a trade. There are at least a dozen young defencemen playing a regular shift in the NHL who aren't as good as Hainsey. It is really hard to find and develop a potential top two defenceman. Much easier to find forwards or goaltenders and they are ready to play sooner. The team has invested a prime draft pick and 3 years in Hainsey, I doubt that they will give up on him. Hossa is easier to replace, but still you don't want to give up too soon on a 6-2, 220 pounder with soft hands.

My perspective is that Gainey is going to go all out with the vets this season in hope of stealing a Cup before the CBA expires, then will completely strip the team next season and start over with the kids.

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03-24-2004, 12:58 AM
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Yeah you would think that Bouillon and Hainsey can split the 6th-7th role. But my whole point is WAIVERS. You can't protect your 7th defenceman! If one of them (looks like Hainsey) is pegged as the no7, you're leaving him unprotected. He will be snapped up and quickly. That's why I would move him and well before training camp because when you get to September, there is little time left to move him. And other teams' lineups will be set in stone by then so there will be little interest in offering something good for him. On the Entry Draft, however, deal are done all throughout the weekend similarly to the trade deadline.

I see Beauchemin as the no7. He is solid and has a low profile throughout the league (similar to what Bouillon's was). Beauchemin would pass through waivers just like he did last fall.

Gainey once said that when acquiring players, he looks for guys who have "a certain character". Hainsey thinks he's the centre of the universe. Hossa doesn't exactly work his butt off every night. I think that neither fit the profile.

Hossa has some worth. So does Hainsey. Maybe we could package them with something else and get a decent 1st back?

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03-24-2004, 01:06 AM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by espion
Gainey once said that when acquiring players, he looks for guys who have "a certain character". Hainsey thinks he's the centre of the universe. Hossa doesn't exactly work his butt off every night. I think that neither fit the profile.

Hossa has some worth. So does Hainsey. Maybe we could package them with something else and get a decent 1st back?
What do you mean about not protecting our 7th defenseman? I don't get it. I've never heard of that.

The rules are that each club may protect 18 skaters and two goaltenders.

Two goalies are easy.

The only guys I see to protect are: Souray, Markov, Komisarek, Rivet?, Brisebois? (preferably neither imo), Koivu, Bulis, Begin, Hossa, Ribeiro, Ryder, Zednik, Dowd, Ward...

There's plenty of space...

RFA's:
Steve Begin, (II) - sign
Jean-Francois Damphousse, (II)
Gordie Dwyer, (II)
Eric Fichaud, (II)
Mathieu Garon, (II) - sign
Marcel Hossa, (II) - sign
Martti Jarventie, (II)
Mike Ribeiro, (II) - sign
Michael Ryder, (II) - sign
Sheldon Souray, (II) - sign
Niklas Sundstrom, (II)
Patrick Traverse, (II)
Rene Vydreny, (II)
Richard Zednik, (II) - sign

UFA's:
Andreas Dackell, (III)
Jim Dowd, (III) - sign
Joe Juneau, (III)
Alexei Kovalev, (III)
Darren Langdon, (III)
Yannick Perrault, (III)
Stephane Quintal, (III)


Last edited by tinyzombies: 03-24-2004 at 01:13 AM.
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03-24-2004, 01:08 AM
  #8
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Hainsey gets a bad rap about his character. He is a very bright kid who has a lot of confidence in himself and doesn't bother with the dumb hockey cliches. I like his character and think that he will be a team leader down the road. He isn't getting any favors in Montreal because of the ethnic situation, but maybe Gainey can put an end to that nonsense. Hossa reminds me too much of John LeClair when he was with Montreal to give up on. LeClair was much the same at the age of 22, a big guy with skill who looked asleep half the time. LeClair is the prime example of not giving up too soon on a big, easygoing guy. Both Hossa and Hainsey fit that profile.

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03-24-2004, 01:12 AM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raketheleaves
What do you mean about not protecting our 7th defenseman? I don't get it. I've never heard of that.

The rules are that each club may protect 18 skaters and two goaltenders.

Two goalies are easy.

Do you have to protect non-NHLers and RFA's as well?
You have to protect from a pool of everyone in your organization who is a certain age. Whether they are pegged to be AHL ers or not. RFAs not signed to contracts MUST be protected of course.

18 skaters can be protected. That usualy translates to 12 forwards and 6 defencemen.

That means the 7th D (Beauchemin? Hainsey? Dykhuis?) can not be protected and is suscptible to being picked up by another team.

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03-24-2004, 01:17 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by espion
You have to protect from a pool of everyone in your organization who is a certain age. Whether they are pegged to be AHL ers or not. RFAs not signed to contracts MUST be protected of course.

18 skaters can be protected. That usualy translates to 12 forwards and 6 defencemen.

That means the 7th D (Beauchemin? Hainsey? Dykhuis?) can not be protected and is suscptible to being picked up by another team.
Skaters
Age/ Years from NHL signing OR NHL Games Played*
18/ 5 or 160
19/ 4 or 160
20/ 3 or 160
21/ 3 or 80
22/ 3 or 70
23/ 3 or 60
24/ 2 or 60
25+/ 1 or -

Ok, so Hainsey and Beachemin have to be protected. Still looks to me like we have room. If we leave Brisebois unprotected, nobody is going to take that contract. Rivet is a bit more risky, but I doubt anyone wants that contract either, but we might not have to do that.

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03-24-2004, 01:19 AM
  #11
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Originally Posted by db23
He isn't getting any favors in Montreal because of the ethnic situation, but maybe Gainey can put an end to that nonsense.

Hossa reminds me too much of John LeClair when he was with Montreal to give up on.
WOAH! what ETHNIC situation!?

Leclair works hard and scored big goals in Montreal. He was pegged as a 3rd liner and played there with 3rd line players. Then he went to Philly, played with Lindros on the 1st line and got 20 minutes a game.

Hossa started the season on the 1st line with Montreal. With Koivu and Zednick. He did not produce. That's what led to his demotion. He's inconsistant, takes nights off, doesn't put up big numbers in the AHL... and he tries to pattern his game after his brother's: a far superior player. He can' t figure out who Marcel is cuz he wants to be the next Marrian.

Hossa IS NOT a "character" player. In fact, he lacks character.

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03-24-2004, 01:23 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by espion
WOAH! what ETHNIC situation!?

Leclair works hard and scored big goals in Montreal. He was pegged as a 3rd liner and played there with 3rd line players. Then he went to Philly, played with Lindros on the 1st line and got 20 minutes a game.

Hossa started the season on the 1st line with Montreal. With Koivu and Zednick. He did not produce. That's what led to his demotion. He's inconsistant, takes nights off, doesn't put up big numbers in the AHL... and he tries to pattern his game after his brother's: a far superior player. He can' t figure out who Marcel is cuz he wants to be the next Marrian.

Hossa IS NOT a "character" player. In fact, he lacks character.
I don't know how we can judge their character if we don't know them. The coaches and players know, but we don't. Hainsey tries to act like a star on the ice, but that's what the sports psychologists tell the players to do because it helps generate confidence.

Hossa just might not be grown into his body yet, we don't know.

I just saw a Beyond the Glory episode with Chelios and he said he was blamed for the 89 cup loss and that he was traded because he was English. I think those days are over with the new Owner and front office tho. Hopefully Gillett, Boivin and Gainey are not morons who think like that.

Must be discouraging for Hainsey to see Quintal ahead of him and to see Komisarek leap over him and have a waiver wire guy like Bouillon have a chance to grow into a role on our defense before him. Especially since he wasn't playing all that bad and in that last game against the Islanders in New York, he had a very solid game and then was sent down.

Hopefully he realizes that they expect a lot from him, with his body and skill set. He's another guy who might not be grown into his body yet tho.

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03-24-2004, 01:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raketheleaves
Skaters
Age/ Years from NHL signing OR NHL Games Played*
18/ 5 or 160
19/ 4 or 160
20/ 3 or 160
21/ 3 or 80
22/ 3 or 70
23/ 3 or 60
24/ 2 or 60
25+/ 1 or -

Ok, so Hainsey and Beachemin have to be protected. Still looks to me like we have room. If we leave Brisebois unprotected, nobody is going to take that contract. Rivet is a bit more risky, but I doubt anyone wants that contract either, but we might not have to do that.
Brisebois and Rivet must be protected. They are our righty top 4 Ds. Leaving them "out there" is potentialy suicidal. You don't leave Jagr unprotected because "he makes 11 million$ so no one will pick him up". You protect Jagr because "he is good enough to make your team".

And by the way, I am not too sure about what all those numbers mean.

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03-24-2004, 01:26 AM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by espion
Brisebois and Rivet must be protected. They are our righty top 4 Ds. Leaving them "out there" is potentialy suicidal. You don't leave Jagr unprotected because "he makes 11 million$ so no one will pick him up". You protect Jagr because "he is good enough to make your team".

And by the way, I am not too sure about what all those numbers mean.
Not only would I leave Brisebois unprotected, but I would buy him out with that $1 mil escape clause in his contract. He had a solid year, but we can get someone cheaper to fill a stay-at-home defenseman role. We don't need to pay this guy $4.5 or whatever million dollars. Can't stand him. He's a curse on this team. Rivet is way overpaid as well, but we can't get rid of both of them and I don't know if Rivet has a buyout clause.

If we want to keep Kovalev, one of them will have to go I would assume. But we might not keep him anyway.

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03-24-2004, 01:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raketheleaves
.

Hossa just might not be grown into his body yet, we don't know.

I just saw a Beyond the Glory episode with Chelios and he said he was blamed for the 89 cup loss and that he was traded because he was English. I think those days are over with the new Owner and front office tho. Hopefully Gillett, Boivin and Gainey are not morons who think like that.


Hopefully he realizes that they expect a lot from him, with his body and skill set. He's another guy who might not be grown into his body yet tho.
Of course they have grown into their bodies. They're 22 or 23, not teenagers. They have Mens' bodies and for a couple years now.

Chelios was a bad boy on the team So was Corson. THey drank, hung out in clubs, missed their carefew (spelling?) in the playoffs, got into fights outside strip clubs, etc... They were bad for the Club's image. Yes, when Corey was running things, image was no1.

Carbo was traded because the 1 weeks after they got eliminated he was at a golf course. a paparazzi photographed him and Carbo gave him the finger. 1st page in the paper. He was traded a weeks later.

If Chelios wants to think he was blamed for the 89 cup loss... he can if he wants to. But he was traded because he caused trouble for the team in the media. Same goes for Carbo and Corson.

I still don't know what ETHNIC situation you're talking about. Muller and Koivu were captains and both were english. Language has NOTHING to do with it.

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03-24-2004, 01:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by espion
WOAH! what ETHNIC situation!?

Leclair works hard and scored big goals in Montreal. He was pegged as a 3rd liner and played there with 3rd line players. Then he went to Philly, played with Lindros on the 1st line and got 20 minutes a game.

Hossa started the season on the 1st line with Montreal. With Koivu and Zednick. He did not produce. That's what led to his demotion. He's inconsistant, takes nights off, doesn't put up big numbers in the AHL... and he tries to pattern his game after his brother's: a far superior player. He can' t figure out who Marcel is cuz he wants to be the next Marrian.

Hossa IS NOT a "character" player. In fact, he lacks character.
Yeah right, what ethnic situation?

Leclair was considered a disappointment and lazy his first couple of years in Montreal.

I never said that Hossa was a great character player, but I don't see him as being particularly bad either. The team does not have enough players with size and skill that they can afford to throw them away.

Gainey said he was looking for a big centre at the trade deadline, then picks up 185 pound Jim Dowd who is 35 and gives away 225 pound chad Kilger who is 27.

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03-24-2004, 01:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raketheleaves
Not only would I leave Brisebois unprotected, but I would buy him out with that $1 mil escape clause in his contract. He had a solid year, but we can get someone cheaper to fill a stay-at-home defenseman role. We don't need to pay this guy $4.5 or whatever million dollars. Can't stand him. He's a curse on this team. Rivet is way overpaid as well, but we can't get rid of both of them and I don't know if Rivet has a buyout clause.

If we want to keep Kovalev, one of them will have to go I would assume. But we might not keep him anyway.
YEAH! Brisebois is a real curse! This 1 loss in 14 games streak is awfull voodoo. It's all Brisebois' bad karma that's causing our terrible record.

He only leads the team in + -. Sure, he's doing awfull! a stay at home D eh? How come he was playing on the 1st PP unit when Souray was injured?

And we don't have to dump Rivet or Brisebois to pay Kovalev 5 or 6 M$ next year.

Quintal: 1.8
Juneau: 2.2
Perreault: 2.8
Dackell: 1.2

That' s 8 million$ right there!

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03-24-2004, 01:42 AM
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i have a question for rake...
when you say "they havent grown into their bodies" or whatever, do you mean strictly physically? if so i agree with espion on that.. if not however, do you mean something along the lines of "physically growing into their bodies and mentally being able to use it to their advantage at the level of play in the NHL" type of thing (which although somewhat similar, IMO they are very much different as well)

if you mean the latter, i agree with you.. they have to learn how to properly use the skills they have (and they are both abundantly talented enough to "Make it" in the nhl, that and consistancy (which is an offshoot of both confidence and better using their talents) are all that seperates them from being solid NHLers IMO

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03-24-2004, 01:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by espion
YEAH! Brisebois is a real curse! This 1 loss in 14 games streak is awfull voodoo. It's all Brisebois' bad karma that's causing our terrible record.

He only leads the team in + -. Sure, he's doing awfull! a stay at home D eh? How come he was playing on the 1st PP unit when Souray was injured?

And we don't have to dump Rivet or Brisebois to pay Kovalev 5 or 6 M$ next year.

Quintal: 1.8
Juneau: 2.2
Perreault: 2.8
Dackell: 1.2

That' s 8 million$ right there!
dont forget all the guys we have to resign who will get fairly nice pay raises (like souray, ribs, ryder, etc)

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03-24-2004, 01:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by espion
Of course they have grown into their bodies. They're 22 or 23, not teenagers. They have Mens' bodies and for a couple years now.

Chelios was a bad boy on the team So was Corson. THey drank, hung out in clubs, missed their carefew (spelling?) in the playoffs, got into fights outside strip clubs, etc... They were bad for the Club's image. Yes, when Corey was running things, image was no1.

Carbo was traded because the 1 weeks after they got eliminated he was at a golf course. a paparazzi photographed him and Carbo gave him the finger. 1st page in the paper. He was traded a weeks later.

If Chelios wants to think he was blamed for the 89 cup loss... he can if he wants to. But he was traded because he caused trouble for the team in the media. Same goes for Carbo and Corson.

I still don't know what ETHNIC situation you're talking about. Muller and Koivu were captains and both were english. Language has NOTHING to do with it.
I'm just telling you what Chelios said in "Beyond the Glory" the other night. I have it on Tivo and I'll give you the exact quote:

"In Montreal when you're winning there's no better place to be, but when you lose, somebody is going to be the scapegoat. People were just abusing me and a lot of it had to do with being an English player playing in a French-Canadian culture."

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03-24-2004, 01:46 AM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by espion
YEAH! Brisebois is a real curse! This 1 loss in 14 games streak is awfull voodoo. It's all Brisebois' bad karma that's causing our terrible record.

He only leads the team in + -. Sure, he's doing awfull! a stay at home D eh? How come he was playing on the 1st PP unit when Souray was injured?

And we don't have to dump Rivet or Brisebois to pay Kovalev 5 or 6 M$ next year.

Quintal: 1.8
Juneau: 2.2
Perreault: 2.8
Dackell: 1.2

That' s 8 million$ right there!
Let's face it, he's overpaid. The powerplay sucked when Souray was out and Brisebois did not help acting like a superstar at the point taking shots when nobody was at the net all the time because he scored two goals and fell in love with his shot.

I am not a fan. I'll leave it at that. He's had a solid year, but that's a lot of wasted money.

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03-24-2004, 01:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman08
dont forget all the guys we have to resign who will get fairly nice pay raises (like souray, ribs, ryder, etc)
Boivin also said we will lose $3 mil if we don't make it to the third round.

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03-24-2004, 01:48 AM
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i know

oh and raketheleaves: i have a q for ya above.. im curious as to what exactly you meant in your statement

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03-24-2004, 01:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raketheleaves

"In Montreal when you're winning there's no better place to be, but when you lose, somebody is going to be the scapegoat. People were just abusing me and a lot of it had to do with being an English player playing in a French-Canadian culture."
Chelly has played in the NHL for 20 years, in several different cities, I think he might know what he is talking about. but the last laugh was on Corey and Savard. Their boy Denis was a complete joke (and a pack a day smoker at that), Chris Chelios has been one of the best players in the game for 15 years or so since he left Montreal.

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03-24-2004, 01:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman08
dont forget all the guys we have to resign who will get fairly nice pay raises (like souray, ribs, ryder, etc)
Yeah I know. But the guy wants to lose Brisebois AND Rivet (I'll assume he wants to dump Quintal too) just to re-sign Kovalev. He doesn't seem to understand that the whole right side of the D would be... gone, non-existant. That's crazy!

Ryder and Ribeiro's contracts will go up by about 1 million$ each. Not that big a deal. Souray's may be a different story though. But none of these guys will be making 4 million. Nowhere close to that. They will just resemble Markov and Zednick's contracts (2 million a year).

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