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Dreger: Redden, Staal, Dubinsky for Kaberle, Stralman, Leafs 1st

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Old
05-24-2009, 01:50 PM
  #101
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as long as matt stajan is a leaf, we have zero need for brandon dubinsky.

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05-24-2009, 01:52 PM
  #102
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What the ****..That is terrible for the Leafs.

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05-24-2009, 01:54 PM
  #103
NYR Sting
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Originally Posted by CapsWolverinesUSA View Post
Is there any player more overrated by their home fanbase than Brandon Dubinsky? The guy has 81 points in 170 games. He showed ZERO improvement this year from his rookie year. And yet Rangers fans seem to think he's a major trade chip.
Yeah, zero improvement...lol. He only went from playing with Jaromir Jagr to being shuffled around all season long between the likes of Zherdev, AARON VOROS, Lauri Korpikoski, Freddy Sjostrom, Markus Naslund and Drury. Yet he came away with more points than last year on an ABYSMAL offensive team.

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The guy is a nice 3rd line player. That's it. AND HE ISN'T EVEN SIGNED.
He's a third line player now, less than a month after turning 23. Believe it or not, players tend to get better. He was one of our best players every single night. He had a rough season, kept getting shuffled about a horrendous lineup, and caught no breaks. He wouldn't be the first player to go through a sophomore slump. He still managed to up his scoring from a season when he played with one of the greatest players of all time to a collection of scrubs, has-beens, and "enigmatic" players.

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I don't care how good Staal is. You don't eat the worst contract in the NHL, give up the #7 pick, get rid of your best veteran trade asset, and dish one of your better prospects for one young defensive defensemen and the RFA rights to a third line center.
Young defensive defensemen? That's a bit of an understatement. He's 22, and he's already among the best defensive defensemen in the league who hasn't been given the opportunity to show what he can do offensively yet.

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Old
05-24-2009, 01:54 PM
  #104
CapsWolverinesUSA
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Originally Posted by _AC_ View Post
It's funny reading what other posters who don't watch the Rangers have to say. It's funny b/c it's wrong.

"Dubinsky is a nice 3rd line player, that's it." That is an abysmal statement. Dubinsky is an EASY second line player and has an excess amount fo raw skill. He just needs to tighten the package just a little, and that's coming w/ time. Stop spewing garbage please.
I probably watched the Rangers play 70 times this season. Unfortunately. Price of being married to a Rags fan. And as a fan of a team that scores 200 goals per season, I'm not sure you'd recognize a 2nd line player if it hit you in the face.

You haven't even attempted to make a logical argument here. You've just thrown out the "I'm a fan. I watch my team. I am right." But that's exactly my point. He's horribly overrated by his home fanbase.

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05-24-2009, 01:57 PM
  #105
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So let’s see here.

There’s a culture of losing and defensive irresponsibility in a morbid Leafs franchise.

Staal vs. the # 7 pick

Instead of HOPING what the # 7 pick MIGHT become, you get the upside signed, sealed, and delivered in Marc Staal. You now have the young shutdown duo that becomes the envy of the NHL is Schenn – Staal, and you can finally begin to resemble an NHL team that leans on DEFENCE to remain competitive until the offensive pieces are put into place, instead of this farcical lineup that leads the NHL in goals against.

Brandon Dubinsky vs. Anton Stralman

Are you kidding me? Anton Stralman is a dime-a-dozen 23 year-old soft, offensive defenceman with modest offensive numbers at that who has shuttled between the minors and the big leagues in his two North American seasons thus far.

The only problem I would foresee with Dubinsky is that he becomes over-rated by Leaf fans after moving from a 3rd-line center behind Drury and Gomez to a 1st-line center on the Leafs. Doug Gilmour-lite. Would put up 60-70 pts with the Leafs, defensively responsible, play all special teams, play with grit, and would stand up for the jersey.

For two slam-dunks, there’s a price to be paid.

Redden vs. Kaberle

For the next two years you pay Redden $2.25 million more than you would pay Kaberle to provide some LEADERSHIP on the back-end above all else. There’s some value there. I will not try to paint it better than it is, there’s a clear loss in this component of the trade, but not as bad as some would make it out to be. Compared to the slam-dunk wins in the first two components of this deal, you pay the price in this third component for the next two years.

After that…….if Wade Redden plays far below the dollar-value of his contract (after having had three seasons to establish that value) he may just have to accept a demotion to the minor leagues as a condition of earning $6.5 million per season.

The Leafs can easily absorb the cost of that, we all know that.

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Old
05-24-2009, 01:58 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _AC_ View Post
It's funny reading what other posters who don't watch the Rangers have to say. It's funny b/c it's wrong.

"Dubinsky is a nice 3rd line player, that's it." That is an abysmal statement. Dubinsky is an EASY second line player and has an excess amount fo raw skill. He just needs to tighten the package just a little, and that's coming w/ time. Stop spewing garbage please.
That may be, but nothing, I repeat, NOTHING justifies this trade for Toronto. Not even the great Dubinsky and Staal would ease the pain of Redden's contract.

I mean, it'd be half decent if Redden actually played like a bottom pairing defenseman.

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Old
05-24-2009, 02:06 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by projexns View Post
The Leafs can easily absorb the cost of that, we all know that.
MLSE is a business, and no business will pay Wade Redden 6.5 million to play in the minors. That just isn't going to happen. And I think you're vastly overstating Redden's leadership abilities. This isn't a guy I want on my blueline until 2014. Like I said, this is the deal-killer. A comparable salary dump on a shorter term, like Roszival, would suit me much better.

And really, Stralman is far from being a dime a dozen player, as anyone who watched the world championships could tell you. If he has no value to the Rangers, I'd be ecstatic to see him out of the deal, especially since the Leafs need offensive talent if they deal Kaberle.

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Old
05-24-2009, 02:07 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Young defensive defensemen? That's a bit of an understatement. He's 22, and he's already among the best defensive defensemen in the league who hasn't been given the opportunity to show what he can do offensively yet.
I hate this argument. He doesn't play in offensive situations because hes not good at it. The coaches try players on the PP in practice, and know what their players are good at, hes not a hidden gem thats gonna become a PP QB after getting a regular shift with the man advantage.

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Old
05-24-2009, 02:12 PM
  #109
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I can't see any GM taking on a Redden contract with the cap coming down, unless the team as a ton of cap space and either Crosby, Ovechkin or Malkin is coming back. Staal and Dubinsky are nice players, but not enough to give up the 7th pick in the draft and take on the Redden contract. Lamoriello, was recently quoted as saying that presently, you won't be able to make a deal unless the contracts even out.

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Old
05-24-2009, 02:14 PM
  #110
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LOL why would Toronto even waste time on this, especially knowing Burke, no way he's getting rid of their 1st. Redden is terrible and has a bad contract.

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Old
05-24-2009, 02:19 PM
  #111
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I can't believe Toronto fans don't like this.

It's highway robbery.

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05-24-2009, 02:21 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Nathan311 View Post
I hate this argument. He doesn't play in offensive situations because hes not good at it. The coaches try players on the PP in practice, and know what their players are good at, hes not a hidden gem thats gonna become a PP QB after getting a regular shift with the man advantage.
1st, young players are not routinely thrown onto the PP, regardless of their ability. 2nd, as astoundingly stupid as it sounds, Tom Renney never worked on the PP in practice. He didn't seem to believe it was necessary.

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Old
05-24-2009, 02:22 PM
  #113
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I think this trade is a lot more even than some posters seem to realize, although it still isn't realistic.

Kaberle>>Redden (talent drop-off is overestimated, but Kaberles contract makes the difference)
Dubinsky> Stralman
Staal>pick#7 (because at 22 years old he has proven to be the type of player you HOPE to get with a top 5 or 10 pick)

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05-24-2009, 02:23 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by projexns View Post
So let’s see here.

There’s a culture of losing and defensive irresponsibility in a morbid Leafs franchise.

Staal vs. the # 7 pick

Instead of HOPING what the # 7 pick MIGHT become, you get the upside signed, sealed, and delivered in Marc Staal. You now have the young shutdown duo that becomes the envy of the NHL is Schenn – Staal, and you can finally begin to resemble an NHL team that leans on DEFENCE to remain competitive until the offensive pieces are put into place, instead of this farcical lineup that leads the NHL in goals against.
Might become?

how about

Poni for Grachev and Del Zotto?

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Old
05-24-2009, 02:29 PM
  #115
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No point. If anything the Leafs have learned to STOP trading away our talent and hoping for the best with someone else's talent.

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05-24-2009, 02:32 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by PDO View Post
I can't believe Toronto fans don't like this.

It's highway robbery.

If it was Staal & Dubinsky for Kabs & the 7th pick, I would have to consider it, but that Redden contract is a major issus.

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05-24-2009, 02:34 PM
  #117
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Counter Offer:

To NYR:

Kaberle
Stralman
2010 first


To Tor:

Redden
Staal
09 first

That is definately better than the first deal. to me this seems fair.

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Old
05-24-2009, 02:45 PM
  #118
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I think we have a general tendency on HFB to overvalue picks. The #7 pick might eventually turn into an equivalent or even better player than Staal. Between the time to develop the drafted player and risk it never happens, Staal is easily worth more than the #7 right now.

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05-24-2009, 02:49 PM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heusy_79 View Post
I think this trade is a lot more even than some posters seem to realize, although it still isn't realistic.

Kaberle>>Redden (talent drop-off is overestimated, but Kaberles contract makes the difference)
Dubinsky> Stralman
Staal>pick#7 (because at 22 years old he has proven to be the type of player you HOPE to get with a top 5 or 10 pick)
I choose to look at it this way.

As you said, Kaberle over Redden. Easily. Both in talent and cap relief, Kabs is superior.

Staal vs. Stralman. They're a year apart, both relatively new to the NHL, give a slight edge to Staal as he's the more talked about youngster with an arguably higher ceiling.

Lastly, we compare Brandon Dubinsky to the 7th overall pick. I'm pretty sure every GM in the league doesn't take too long to think about trading Dubinsky for a top 10 pick, in this year's draft.

Sather would be so lucky to have this deal offered to him, which is why it'll never happen.

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05-24-2009, 02:51 PM
  #120
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Of course people on HF would be against this i mean players already playing in the NHL are worthless compared to a potential prospect.

If i am the Leafs i pull the trigger.They have the cap space to take on Redden and they get good young players who are already in the league.

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Old
05-24-2009, 02:57 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
1st, young players are not routinely thrown onto the PP, regardless of their ability. 2nd, as astoundingly stupid as it sounds, Tom Renney never worked on the PP in practice. He didn't seem to believe it was necessary.
This is false. There was a quote from Renney very early in the year that they didn't have the time to work on the PP, what with the Europe trip and all, but they most certainly worked on it during the season. Just cuz the PP sucked isn't proof that they didn't work on it.

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Old
05-24-2009, 03:10 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
- the best player in the deal (as of right now, Kaberle is still better than Staal or Dubinsky)
Staal is far and away the best asset in the deal.

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Old
05-24-2009, 03:10 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Letang58 View Post
7th > Staal
Kaberle >> Dubinsky

And Redden has negative value. Burke would be NUTS to do this.
I disagree with both of those.

Staal>Kaberle
Dubinsky=7th

There is no way Burke would turn down Staal for kaberle. Staal has one cheap year and then burke Wan sign him lonterm for sign him in 3-5-4.5 range and be better off. Staal and Schenn for the next 5 years would give them great young defence. That portion is a bad deal for the Ranger's IMO.

If the player that is picked at 7th is as good as Dubinsky then any team would be happy. He is a physical offensive center who is young and ready for more responsibility. I actually think I would not give up Dubinsky if I was offered the 7th pick, but I really like him.

The Redden for Strahlman portions seems like a salary dump that favors the Rangers, but actually makes the Leafs a stronger team short term. Redden's contract is huge, but he has the talent to get 50 points with a more offensive team as shown by his numbers in OTT. I feel he would be a better fit with Toronto's offensive game.
I could easily see him as a 40-50 point guy in Toronto. The cost is $1.95 million over what Kaberle is going to cost. I am sure that Kaberle is going get more points than Redden, but being able to add Staal to Tor's Defence long term makes this an Auto win for them.

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Old
05-24-2009, 03:12 PM
  #124
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Overall, the trade looks pointless for both sides.

TOR: Why not just keep their pick and move Kaberle on his own?

NYR: If trying to salary dump, why lose an excellent young d-man? Isn't it easier to keep Staal and just move Roszival (who has a much more workable contract than Redden)?

I've seen plenty of stupider trades than this, but it still doesn't seem to make much sense for either side. Both sides simply seem to have much better options.

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Old
05-24-2009, 03:13 PM
  #125
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Staal is far and away the best asset in the deal.
Far and away ?

And NYR fans are calling Leafs fans homers .

This is absolutely ****ing pathetic .

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