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Carcillo/Talbot - Turning point of Game 6 or scapegoat? (from Kings rumor thread)

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Old
06-20-2009, 12:24 PM
  #1
GKJ
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Carcillo/Talbot - Turning point of Game 6 or scapegoat? (from Kings rumor thread)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Clarke Fan Club View Post
Yeah, I'd prefer to blame the guys on the ice for the majority of the meltdown rather than blaming Carcillo for doing what he was brought in to do. Fact is the Penguins raised their level of play after the fight and the Flyers couldn't respond. Carcillo costing us the series with that fight is one of the stupidest things I've ever read on these boards.
I used 2 key words in there. In part. It's not all his fault, but where did it start? It started with a guy being goaded into a fight he never should have taken. A player with a brain walks away. Every time.

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06-20-2009, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
I used 2 key words in there. In part. It's not all his fault, but where did it start? It started with a guy being goaded into a fight he never should have taken. A player with a brain walks away. Every time.
I remember a young Tocchet used to be the same. I'm not comparing Carcillo to Tocchet because Tocchet was a much, much, much better hockey player, but I think in due time, Carcillo will pick his spots better. I'm sure being in the playoffs for the first time, Carcillo was full of pee and vinegar and jumped the gun. If anything, I think Berube needs to do more one on one work with Carcillo and show him when the time is right to drop the gloves and start chucking knuckles.

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06-20-2009, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
I used 2 key words in there. In part. It's not all his fault, but where did it start? It started with a guy being goaded into a fight he never should have taken. A player with a brain walks away. Every time.
********. Carcillo keeps pushing Talbot away, he doesn't drop em until his encouraged to do so by the entire flyers bench.

there must not be a single player with a brain on this entire team.

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06-20-2009, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UseYourAllusion View Post
********. Carcillo keeps pushing Talbot away, he doesn't drop em until his encouraged to do so by the entire flyers bench.

there must not be a single player with a brain on this entire team.
So he's absolved from getting into a needless fight that provided the energy to the other team...because the bench was yelling at him. Much like the fans were yelling at him.

Not good enough.

We can look at it 2 ways:

(a) I don't give a damn what they're saying on the bench. The guys on the ice is what matters. You can see the bench right as they start fighting, it doesn't look like they're saying a whole lot until they're already fighting.

(b) It's a perfect example of my motto recent that "Flyers Hockey does not equate to Winning Hockey." The game has changed, and it seems the Flyers have trouble changing with it.

At any rate, it's something that you're told exactly what NOT to do when you have the momentum, and it's likely a reason why the Coyotes decided that the end did not justify the means and got rid of him.


If anyone noticed around the league, the only people who seem to be ok with that fight taking place reside on this board.

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06-20-2009, 12:55 PM
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Can't we get off the fight for godsakes or at least create a "Carcillo Fight" thread? This is just ridiculous. Every time Game 6 comes up, there has to be an obligatory "Carcillo Fight debate."

I suggest we follow my previous suggestion (which worked out fairly well for Briere) and just create a separate Carcillo thread like Opus did for Briere so that this doesn't just keep hijacking threads.

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06-20-2009, 01:03 PM
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I still hate Carcillo. I dont think he is a good hockey player, but I am ready to move on from what he did in game 6.

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06-20-2009, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
It's a perfect example of my motto recent that "Flyers Hockey does not equate to Winning Hockey." The game has changed, and it seems the Flyers have trouble changing with it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
But it was a moral victory. We beat up someone.

You see how that works? It's only ok to blame the team as a whole, singling out any one mistake has all kinds of mitigating factors that justifies what actually happened.
I'm hardly against singling out individuals for mistakes. I don't believe that the fight was a mistake. I think it was largely irrelevant to the outcome of the game, and that the whole Carcillo as the villian thing is played, and distracts from the real problems with this team.

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06-20-2009, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FireStevensDotCom View Post
I still hate Carcillo. I dont think he is a good hockey player, but I am ready to move on from what he did in game 6.
get the **** outta here. That fight had nothing to do with the outcome of the game.

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06-20-2009, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UseYourAllusion View Post
Is that a Flyers jersey he's wearing?


Quote:
I'm hardly against singling out individuals for mistakes. I don't believe that the fight was a mistake. I think it was largely irrelevant to the outcome of the game, and that the whole Carcillo as the villian thing is played, and distracts from the real problems with this team.
I see him as a problem, thus, want to have it fixed. He doesn't do anything Josh Gratton (fight non-heavyweights) or Jon Kalinski (score 1 goal) can't.

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06-20-2009, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UseYourAllusion View Post
I'm hardly against singling out individuals for mistakes. I don't believe that the fight was a mistake. I think it was largely irrelevant to the outcome of the game, and that the whole Carcillo as the villian thing is played, and distracts from the real problems with this team.
Let me ask you this then, what did Carcillo have to gain by getting into that fight up 3-0 on home ice. The crowd was goin nuts after Briere scored that goal.
Carcillo gets into that fight and seconds later the Pens score. you could feel the momentum shift right there. The buzz in the crowd was gone. The Pens scored again a short time later and the rest is history.
Is Carcillo totally at fault? probably not but there was no need for him to get into a fight at that point of the hockey game. The Pens were looking for a spark to get them going and Carcillo gave it to them when Talbot goated him into that fight.
Concidence? maybe it was. maybe the Flyers werent going to win that game anyway. Myself and many others just felt at the time it wasnt a good time to get into a fight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stafuccijr View Post
get the **** outta here. That fight had nothing to do with the outcome of the game.
maybe it didnt but when you are up 3-0 on home ice, the crowd is going crazy you dont give the other team a spark.
What is the one thing that we ask for when the Flyers are down in a hockey game by 2 or 3 goals in the 2nd period? a fight.
I know this for a fact if the Flyers were down 3-0 and Carcillo gets into that fight, the Flyers rally to win he is hailed on this board as the savior of the game and maybe the series. If that is indeed true you cant have it both ways.


Last edited by GoneFullHextall: 06-20-2009 at 01:20 PM.
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06-20-2009, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
But it was a moral victory. We beat up someone.

You see how that works? It's only ok to blame the team as a whole, singling out any one mistake has all kinds of mitigating factors that justifies what actually happened.
The entire team is responsible for Game 6. I'm tired of people singling out Carcillo for one incident when it was the entire team that fell flat on their face.

Everyone's so eager to jump on Carcillo, why not jump on Richie, Gagne, Kimmo, or Parent who were all pretty bad in that game?

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06-20-2009, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FireStevensDotCom View Post
Let me ask you this then, what did Carcillo have to gain by getting into that fight up 3-0 on home ice. The crowd was goin nuts after Briere scored that goal.
Carcillo gets into that fight and seconds later the Pens score. you could feel the momentum shift right there. The buzz in the crowd was gone. The Pens scored again a short time later and the rest is history.
Is Carcillo totally at fault? probably not but there was no need for him to get into a fight at that point of the hockey game. The Pens were looking for a spark to get them going and Carcillo gave it to them when Talbot goated him into that fight.
Concidence? maybe it was. maybe the Flyers werent going to win that game anyway. Myself and many others just felt at the time it wasnt a good time to get into a fight.
I would say the Pens momentum came from the goal, after Carle failed to clear the front of the net. The fact that the fight happened moments before was pure coincidence. The buzz in the crowd was immense between the fight and that pens goal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Is that a Flyers jersey he's wearing?
That's a disingenuous response and you know it. The Ducks won that cup playing what can only be described as the "flyers hockey." The reason the Flyers have not won one, recently, has nothing to do with their style of play, they simply are not good or balanced enough as constructed.

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06-20-2009, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Everything
I concur. He made good moves to start, but I think he got into the mind frame where everything he does is right, however, majority of them have been awful. I just hope the trend ends soon or we get a GM who can actually manage a winning team without cap issues (and maybe even change a coach).

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06-20-2009, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
The game has changed, and it seems the Flyers have trouble changing with it.
I love this quote. Everything the Flyers have done draft wise indicates that they're more than willing to move forward with the way the game is being played, yet the product on the ice speaks otherwise. We've got offensively gifted and talented hockey players on this club, yet there seems to be this clamoring for old time Flyers hockey.

There's something seriously wrong between management, coaching and the players on the ice. Something doesn't fit here. It seems like management and coaching aren't even in the same building, let alone same page.

We hear how management wants this club to be built on speed and skill, yet everything on the ice indicates otherwise. Honestly, I don't think Holmgren or Stevens know what kind of team they want in place. It's like they're throwing crap at a wall and seeing what sticks.

Honestly, it's time for another house cleaning. And this time, no more hiring from within. The same stale view has brought the same stale style that permeated back when Clarke was the GM (and that pains me because I loved Bobby, but he was just stuck on things like size and brawn and couldn't be moved from that line of thinking).

With that being said, I want to see the team progress as an offensive powerhouse. And before anyone starts about defensive hockey, I understand that there needs to be some defensive equation in the system. At the same point, playing suffocating defense to the point of nullifying the offensive talent that's here is also a waste.

Anyways, in order for things to sink in, Snider also has to read everyone the riot act and I don't get that impression from him. He seems to be content with the way things are and as long as there's complacency at the top, we're always going to have this discussion about the state of the franchise. Yes, they're good enough to make the playoffs and maybe win a round or two, but no, they aren't good enough to win a Stanley Cup and I think the problem is that for all the lip service coaching and management give about wanting to win a Stanley Cup, everyone seems to be content with mediocrity and that anything else is a bonus.......

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06-20-2009, 02:09 PM
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the problem right now and what has been the case is loyality. I think you hit the nail right on the head BCF16. We have many in this organization who either cant or wont let go of the past. Honestly is there a need to have Asham,Cote and Carcillo on this hockey team? (I mean all 3 of them at once)
its time for Snider to say enough is enough. No more loyalty. bring in hockey people. bring in people who understand what it takes to bring a Cup to Philly.
players,coaches,management. all of them
I am sick and tired of the excuses, the heartbreak, having my soul ripped out because this team "isnt good enough" or "hey at least we showed can compete with Pittsburgh" I am sick and tired of what I view as complacency.

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06-20-2009, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FireStevensDotCom View Post


maybe it didnt but when you are up 3-0 on home ice, the crowd is going crazy you dont give the other team a spark.
What is the one thing that we ask for when the Flyers are down in a hockey game by 2 or 3 goals in the 2nd period? a fight.
I know this for a fact if the Flyers were down 3-0 and Carcillo gets into that fight, the Flyers rally to win he is hailed on this board as the savior of the game and maybe the series. If that is indeed true you cant have it both ways.
Talbot went after him and dropped his gloves...what was Carcillo supposed to do, just stand there and let Talbot throw punches? If he did that you'd be *****ing about how big of a ***** Carcillo was

the fact of the matter is that fight didnt determine the outcome of the game, the play of the Flyers did....they just stopped doing what they were doing that game

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06-20-2009, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
Talbot went after him and dropped his gloves...what was Carcillo supposed to do, just stand there and let Talbot throw punches? If he did that you'd be *****ing about how big of a ***** Carcillo was
No, it would have been smart. Score and time...Carcillo didn't think about it. Walk away. Maybe Talbot gets 2 minutes and we have a PP and are up 4-0.

Quote:
the fact of the matter is that fight didnt determine the outcome of the game, the play of the Flyers did....they just stopped doing what they were doing that game
See, here is what I don't get. Fight advocates argue that the value of the fight is that it lets a team get emotion back in the game. You drop the gloves to inspire your team (Richards has been specifically credited for having done this, and it is mentioned as a key pillar in the greatness of his leadership qualities). Now, you want to have it both ways.

Talbot said after the fact that he specifically went out there to fight...and fight a guy he knew he was going to lose badly to in order to fire his team up. Now, you can quibble with whether or not fighting actually accomplishes those goals, but the primary justification for keeping fighting in the game is along these lines, and Talbot specifically instigated that fight to fire his team up and get them going (because he felt responsible for one of the goals against).

Carcillo let Talbot get what he wanted...and it was all downhill from there.

Whether that was the reason or not, the whole philosophy of fighting in the sport of hockey suggests that Carcillo should have walked away. He didn't.

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06-20-2009, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UseYourAllusion View Post
That's a disingenuous response and you know it. The Ducks won that cup playing what can only be described as the "flyers hockey." The reason the Flyers have not won one, recently, has nothing to do with their style of play, they simply are not good or balanced enough as constructed.
You construct your team to tailor the way you play. The Flyers never had a Scott Niedermayer or Giguere and haven't had a Sami Pahlsson since Dave Poulin.

They had their moments when they got dirty, but when it came down to it, they also played smart and above themselves and the situation when they had to. The Flyers let themselves get goaded into those situations, and oh yeah constructed their team to play big defense and had elite goaltending and coaching. Randy Carlyle never played a game with the Ducks in his career. Just as Dan Bylsma never played a game for the Penguins.

There are differences, but it's the differences that count. See the 2004 Flyers, they were much more suited to win than any Flyers team over the last 35 years, because they didn't play stupid or make excuses. And their qualifications to be in the front office don't include a stint on the team as a player.


There's a reason why it's a running joke around the league when it comes to the way the Flyers play as opposed to most other teams that win Stanley Cups.

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06-20-2009, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
Talbot went after him and dropped his gloves...what was Carcillo supposed to do, just stand there and let Talbot throw punches? If he did that you'd be *****ing about how big of a ***** Carcillo was

the fact of the matter is that fight didnt determine the outcome of the game, the play of the Flyers did....they just stopped doing what they were doing that game
Carcillo could have skated away.
Like I said and what many others have said, the Pens needed a spark and Talbot went out there and challenged Carcillo knowing full well with Carcillo's "rep" that he wouldnt say no. Why didnt Talbot challenge Richards? or even Hartnell. because they knew that they would have skated away.
I will say it one more time just to be clear. I am not totally blaming Carcillo for the loss, but there was no need to get into a fight at that moment. none. zero. zip.
Dont make this out to be that Talbot just dropped the gloves and jumped him either and Carcillo had no other choice. That was far from the case.
And if he did do that the Flyers would have had a 7 minute powerplay and the game would have been over.

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06-20-2009, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Carcillo let Talbot get what he wanted...and it was all downhill from there.

Whether that was the reason or not, the whole philosophy of fighting in the sport of hockey suggests that Carcillo should have walked away. He didn't.
Yes, Carcillo fighting Talbot directly affected the Flyers decision making when they let Fedotenko and Malkin hack at Biron without hitting them. It directly forced Kimmo into an awful turnover at the blue line and forced us to give up a 3 on 1.

Carcillo's fight forced the Flyers to not show up in the 3rd period.

Carcillo's fight forced the Flyers not to show up in Game 1 of the series.

Carcillo's fight is the only reason we're not the Stanley Cup champions right now.

Daniel Carcillo was sent by Satan to ruin this hockey club. His actions directly forced guys like Knuble, Gagne, Hartnell, Lupul, Kimmo, and Parent to play like ass when their team needed them most. It directly forced Carle to not be more assertive in protecting his goalie.

The Carcillo people are no better than the Biron people. One group chooses to blame the goalie with the .915 save percentage, the other group chooses to blame a 4th liner.

The Carcillo fight probably wasn't well-timed, but it's no excuse for the pathetic lack of effort and fight we saw in the last 30 minutes of the game.

Sure, maybe it gave the Pens life, but it sure as hell didn't force our guys to play like zombies. Which they did.

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06-20-2009, 02:43 PM
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GKJ
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Again, we're not saying "it's all his fault." He made the snowball, everyone else rolled it down the hill.

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06-20-2009, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Yes, Carcillo fighting Talbot directly affected the Flyers decision making when they let Fedotenko and Malkin hack at Biron without hitting them. It directly forced Kimmo into an awful turnover at the blue line and forced us to give up a 3 on 1.

Carcillo's fight forced the Flyers to not show up in the 3rd period.

Carcillo's fight forced the Flyers not to show up in Game 1 of the series.

Carcillo's fight is the only reason we're not the Stanley Cup champions right now.

Daniel Carcillo was sent by Satan to ruin this hockey club. His actions directly forced guys like Knuble, Gagne, Hartnell, Lupul, Kimmo, and Parent to play like ass when their team needed them most. It directly forced Carle to not be more assertive in protecting his goalie.

The Carcillo people are no better than the Biron people. One group chooses to blame the goalie with the .915 save percentage, the other group chooses to blame a 4th liner.

The Carcillo fight probably wasn't well-timed, but it's no excuse for the pathetic lack of effort and fight we saw in the last 30 minutes of the game.

Sure, maybe it gave the Pens life, but it sure as hell didn't force our guys to play like zombies. Which they did.
Please find one declarative statement in my post that Carcillo's fight led to any of those things happening. Just one.

My point was that the defense of Carcillo's decision is hypocritical at worst, and indefensibly weak at best.

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06-20-2009, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Please find one declarative statement in my post that Carcillo's fight led to any of those things happening. Just one.

My point was that the defense of Carcillo's decision is hypocritical at worst, and indefensibly weak at best.
This is the only point I am trying to make.
Yet I am being accused of putting 100 percent of the blame on Carcillo.

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06-20-2009, 03:11 PM
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FlyHigh
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Hmm, let me find some quotes from the Game 3 GDT of the Caps series.

Upshall fought Green in Game 3 at home 17 seconds into the 3rd period when we were up 4-2, Caps eventually brought it back to 4-3 and had a couple good chances to get it to 4-4 before Richie's penalty shot.

Quotes from that GDT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul
Upshall!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie_Girl
Go Upshall!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88
go Scotty go

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woof
Get him Upshall!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valhoun
Upshall smash.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsbergIsOdin
Upshall is the ****ing MANNNNN
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hovercraft
Upshall doing what an agitator should
Not a single person (Jester, GKJ, FireStevens included), not a single, single person criticized Upshall for that fight.

In a nearly identical situation, a game we were up by 2 with all the momentum.

Not a single one.

It's hypocrisy at its finest. When Upshall does it, we love him. When Carcillo does it, he started the process that led to us losing.

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06-20-2009, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Hmm, let me find some quotes from the Game 3 GDT of the Caps series.

Upshall fought Green in Game 3 at home 17 seconds into the 3rd period when we were up 4-2, Caps eventually brought it back to 4-3 and had a couple good chances to get it to 4-4 before Richie's penalty shot.

Quotes from that GDT.

Not a single person (Jester, GKJ, FireStevens included), not a single, single person criticized Upshall for that fight.

In a nearly identical situation, a game we were up by 2 with all the momentum.

Not a single one.
So...take it up with them.

Quote:
It's hypocrisy at its finest. When Upshall does it, we love him. When Carcillo does it, he started the process that led to us losing.
No, it would be hypocrisy if it wasn't noted after the fact if we had lost. If we had won the game...whatever, we move on. We didn't. Nor do I see any of those people you quoted here making this point...do you not understand what hypocrisy means?

It should be noted that I have no problem with them eliminating fighting from the sport. I don't think it really serves the purpose it is supposed to, but the purpose it is supposed to serve was serving Talbot in that fight, not Carcillo.

Do I think the fight fired up the Pens? Absolutely.

Do I think it's the reason we lost? No.

Do I think it was stupid for Carcillo to fight Talbot? Yes. Do I like having stupid players on the team? No.

Of course, I also enjoy you bringing up Upshall v. Green as if it was the same thing as Carcillo v. Talbot. Upshall fighting Green got one of the Caps BEST PLAYERS off the ice for 5 minutes. A guy that would have been KEY to helping them get two goals to tie the game. If Carcillo had fought Malkin, Crosby, Gonchar, etc. I would have had no problem with him dropping the gloves with them, as that would have been an excellent use of a fight for us as far as who was put in the penalty box for 5 minutes.

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