HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Koivu, Kovy and other topics

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
05-26-2009, 11:20 AM
  #26
Jigger77
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,952
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by nittany View Post
Kovalev as captain? Just brutal.
Habs played some of their best hockey of the season during the stretch in which Kovalev was captain.

Jigger77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2009, 11:20 AM
  #27
Hannibal
Brandon Prust FTW
 
Hannibal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,545
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
Habs played some of their best hockey of the season during the stretch in which Kovalev was captain.
Please, don't go there....

Hannibal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2009, 11:22 AM
  #28
Go Habs Go
Registered User
 
Go Habs Go's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Mississauga
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,441
vCash: 500
That means Koivu is gone which means Gainey WILL go for another center. I hope its a big center

Go Habs Go is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2009, 11:23 AM
  #29
Jigger77
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,952
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal View Post
Please, don't go there....
You're right. Pointing out factual information and stuff. What was I thinking.

Jigger77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2009, 11:23 AM
  #30
Hannibal
Brandon Prust FTW
 
Hannibal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,545
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Go Habs Go View Post
That means Koivu is gone which means Gainey WILL go for another center. I hope its a big center
He did. Did you forget Johansson?

Hannibal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2009, 11:24 AM
  #31
Teufelsdreck
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 14,206
vCash: 500
Is Minnesota more likely to make the playoffs than Montréal? I doubt it.

Teufelsdreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2009, 11:25 AM
  #32
Hannibal
Brandon Prust FTW
 
Hannibal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,545
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
You're right. Pointing out factual information and stuff. What was I thinking.
No, i'm not saying that you were wrong, i'm just saying that it will start a long and stupid debate!

Hannibal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2009, 11:25 AM
  #33
417
Registered User
 
417's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Haiti
Posts: 19,381
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCH View Post
Why would a certain player get more ice time?
Because he is more effective! And because he is capable!

Some players just ain't cut out to play 20 minutes a game, so the ability to play the minutes is actually a plus for Kovy over the other guys. I mean seriously, are you gonna say Schneider is more offensively talented then Markov because of TOI?
Markov earns his icetime...his icetime is always equal to his production

The same can't be said for everyone on the team...especially the guy's who get the most icetime amongst the forwards.

417 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2009, 11:25 AM
  #34
Blind Gardien
Global Moderator
nexus of the crisis
 
Blind Gardien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Four Winds Bar
Country: France
Posts: 19,492
vCash: 500
Definitely seems like a Kovalev-centric article/rumour/concoction, anyway. Hopefully Kovalev will be re-signed, hopefully at no raise on his salary last year (it was an overall poor year for him, relative to the expectations we had for him, and he's not getting any younger, so a raise should be absolutely out of the question).

It does seem like Gainey loves Kovalev. He is also on record as loving Koivu and vouching for his leadership ability. Well, and he was also on record as loving Carbo as coach. So I don't know what we can really predict from Gainey on any of that.

But *I* think Koivu is a more important player to the Habs than Kovalev is, and going purely by the on-ice observables, he seems like a much better leader-by-example anyway. Ask Pierre McGuire or any of those other non-Montreal broadcaster/commentator type guys what they think of Kovalev as an NHL team's captain. I dunno, a lot of Kovalev's reputation outside of Montreal seems to have ballooned based on some of his past exploits (or lack thereof), but nevertheless, all of those people are closer to it than any of us are, and I can't help but thinking that most people in the NHL world would guffaw at the concept of Kovalev as a team captain. Possibly wrongly. But... Weird idea to me... the article would have had a better chance at credibility if they had left that part out.

Blind Gardien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2009, 11:27 AM
  #35
HabsAtak
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 199
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puckhead58 View Post
Based on what??? His awards? Stanley Cups? Art Ross Trophy's??

What makes Koivu such a great leader...because for the last 5 years, I haven't really seen much out of him to tell me how great of a leader he is.

The last 2 seasons tho, I have seen the Habs play some of their best hockey when Kovalev was wearing the C and playing without Koivu. Doesn't that say something about Koivu's leadership right there??
Because Koivu does not need to be sent home, or benched, or taken on a stroll in old montreal to get motivated to show up every night. Koivu may not have won the awards but neither has Kovalev. Kovalev performed well in a stanley cup playoff run with the Rangers but they had the ultimate captain in Mark Messier. Kovalev cannot lead a team, he is just too unpredictable. This rubs off on the younger players. With Koivu you at least get consistency. That is way more important then having a sometimes elite player on the team and leading as Captain.

Plus, Koivu has stuck around to lead the Habs for 14 or so years. You don't just let that walk away. Although, I do admit the Habs do tend to do that (i.e. Muller, Damphouse, Turgeon, Keane)

HabsAtak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2009, 11:27 AM
  #36
Bialo Czerwoni
 
Bialo Czerwoni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Montreal
Posts: 351
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Markov earns his icetime...his icetime is always equal to his production

The same can't be said for everyone on the team...especially the guy's who get the most icetime amongst the forwards.
Who among our forwards this year deserved more ice time than Kovalev?
Higgins?
Kostitsyn?

Bialo Czerwoni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2009, 11:27 AM
  #37
MathMan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,957
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCH View Post
Wrong.
It may seem that way if you look at it very superficially.

Tanguay generates almost as much offense as Kovalev on significantly less icetime (over 3 minutes per game less!), is much better defensively, and doesn't need to be on the PP to score -- a much bigger proportion of his scoring is at even strength.

Tanguay was absolutely the Habs' most effective forward overall when he played. No ifs, no buts, the facts are there to see. Kovalev was up there but Tanguay clearly did more.

One of Carbo's greatest failings as a coach was his almost criminal underutilization of Tanguay. He needed to get equal icetime to Kovalev and could very well have been a PPG player if he had and we wouldn't be having this argument.

MathMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2009, 11:29 AM
  #38
TheCH*
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,060
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Markov earns his icetime...his icetime is always equal to his production

The same can't be said for everyone on the team...especially the guy's who get the most icetime amongst the forwards.
Ok, so if it were that cut and dry that Kovalev produces more because of TOI when compared to Lang or Tanguay, why not just simply give them all the same amount of ice time?

I'll tell you why. Because those guys can't physically play the minutes and still be effective like Kovy can. The same goes for Koivu, he is useless when he is overplayed. Kovalev is a fitness freak though and doesn't fatigue so easy.

TheCH* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2009, 11:31 AM
  #39
JeromeHP
@Jerome_Berube
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,580
vCash: 500
kovalev at 6 millions and with the C

JeromeHP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2009, 11:31 AM
  #40
GoodKiwi
Registered User
 
GoodKiwi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Montreal
Country: Georgia
Posts: 9,322
vCash: 500
So we are to offer Kovalev a one year deal "in the neighborhood of 6-7,5m per year"?



GoodKiwi is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2009, 11:31 AM
  #41
417
Registered User
 
417's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Haiti
Posts: 19,381
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCH View Post
Ok, so if it were that cut and dry that Kovalev produces more because of TOI when compared to Lang or Tanguay, why not just simply give them all the same amount of ice time?

I'll tell you why. Because those guys can't physically play the minutes and still be effective like Kovy can. The same goes for Koivu, he is useless when he is overplayed. Kovalev is a fitness freak though and doesn't fatigue so easy.
I agree...my point is just to say that Kovalev gets and can handle the big minutes, I just wish he was more productive with his icetime. That's all...

417 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2009, 11:32 AM
  #42
TheCH*
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,060
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
It may seem that way if you look at it very superficially.

Tanguay generates almost as much offense as Kovalev on significantly less icetime (over 3 minutes per game less!), is much better defensively, and doesn't need to be on the PP to score -- a much bigger proportion of his scoring is at even strength.
BS reasoning. Ask yourself why it is that Tanguay plays less.. and its not because of favoritism. He can't handle the extra time like Kovalev can. I'll take the guy that can handle the minutes, thats a huge bonus in the playoffs! And a goal on the pp is just as valuable as a goal at even strength. By your standards Latendresse is the best hab ever!@

TheCH* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2009, 11:33 AM
  #43
417
Registered User
 
417's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Haiti
Posts: 19,381
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bialo Czerwoni View Post
Who among our forwards this year deserved more ice time than Kovalev?
Higgins?
Kostitsyn?
I never said anyone deserved it more either

417 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2009, 11:34 AM
  #44
Bialo Czerwoni
 
Bialo Czerwoni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Montreal
Posts: 351
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
It may seem that way if you look at it very superficially.

Tanguay generates almost as much offense as Kovalev on significantly less icetime (over 3 minutes per game less!), is much better defensively, and doesn't need to be on the PP to score -- a much bigger proportion of his scoring is at even strength.

Tanguay was absolutely the Habs' most effective forward overall when he played. No ifs, no buts, the facts are there to see. Kovalev was up there but Tanguay clearly did more.

One of Carbo's greatest failings as a coach was his almost criminal underutilization of Tanguay. He needed to get equal icetime to Kovalev and could very well have been a PPG player if he had and we wouldn't be having this argument.
Im just wondering.. Are you counting all the PK he played in your calculation or just the EV and PP ice time. Kovalev played a whole lot on the PK this year, I remember games where he played 4-5 minutes. Tanguay did not play at all this year, I believe.

Bialo Czerwoni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2009, 11:34 AM
  #45
HabsAtak
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 199
vCash: 500
I would take Kovalev back though once Koivu is signed but only at 2.5m contract with 2m in bonuses to bring him up to his salary last year. That would be more reasonable and would be less of a CAP hit. It would have to be a 1 year contract though, for an over 35 to have the bonuses.

HabsAtak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2009, 11:34 AM
  #46
417
Registered User
 
417's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Haiti
Posts: 19,381
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCH View Post
BS reasoning. Ask yourself why it is that Tanguay plays less.. and its not because of favoritism. He can't handle the extra time like Kovalev can.
Not sure I agree with that...but either way, I don't think his point was about who can or can't handle the icetime, just that some players do more with their icetime than Kovalev does with his, and for that, at least this year, I have to agree with.

417 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2009, 11:34 AM
  #47
redmachine54
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 677
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCH View Post
BS reasoning. Ask yourself why it is that Tanguay plays less.. and its not because of favoritism. He can't handle the extra time like Kovalev can. I'll take the guy that can handle the minutes, thats a huge bonus in the playoffs!
What do you mean? Tanguay averaged 18 minutes in the four years prior to this season, and outproduced Kovalev over that span. He can handle the big minutes just fine.

redmachine54 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2009, 11:37 AM
  #48
One Man Rock Band
Slater's Gonna Slate
 
One Man Rock Band's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Habville
Country: Canada
Posts: 43,818
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCH View Post
Wrong.

Kovalev 65 points overall. 0.83 points per game, and he was healthy the whole year.
Tanguay 41 points overall. 0.82 points per game but not much good when he is injured half the year(not his fault but still..)
Lang 39 total points. 0.78 points per game but again injured half the year.

Kovalev was our most effective forward, and there are no "what if's" about it like there would be if you try to argue in favor of Tanguay or Lang.
Kovalev's -5 looked great in comparison with Tanguay's +13 and Lang's +6, didn't it?

Oh and the by the way, offensively, Kovalev was not the best. In fact, he was behind Koivu, Tanguay, and Lang.

Kovalev PROD RATE: 23:18
Tanguay PROD RATE: 19:36
Lang PROD RATE: 21:37
Koivu PROD RATE: 22:09

Sorry to burst your bubble there.

One Man Rock Band is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2009, 11:38 AM
  #49
habtastic
Registered User
 
habtastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Mumbai via MTL
Country: India
Posts: 9,230
vCash: 500
The reason we had that awesome streak til the markov injury was due to:
our top line =
Tanguay-Koivu-Kovalev
Markov-Schneider (when paired together on PP, Komi filled in, albeit was the worst of the lot)

That line was unbelievable. It was the best chemistry we've had since the Turgeon-Recchi-whoever days (and even that didn't wasn't as potent as what we saw in those 6 games).

We neeeeeeed to keep that line together.
Tanguay is NOT soft and is insanely talented
Koivu is not only heart, but very very smart, great playmaker, is BTW a great puck controller
Kovalev is (with the other two) pure sniper

I don't really take this article seriously, but we need to keep all three of those forwards. It may be impossible, but who knows. Saku is interested in the team's direction, tanguay wants to stay provisionally and Kovy wants to stay. It's equally possible that we can pull this off. I honestly think our team last year was a very good one, just had some slumps and sophmore seasons + massive injuries. We still only need one big time player for the second line and we are in a good position (assuming we have Lang back). I really hope this team stays mostly the same with a minor tweak and some good coaching.

habtastic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2009, 11:42 AM
  #50
TheCH*
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,060
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
Kovalev's -5 looked great in comparison with Tanguay's +13 and Lang's +6, didn't it?
+/- is a bs stat. Ryder had a better +/- then Chara for chrissakes! How the hell can anybody base anything on that?

And also, Tanguay and Lang were injured for the most part of our slump which would be the OBVIOUS reason for the difference in +/-.

TheCH* is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:06 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.