I don't give a **** what you say. The way you guys are scrutinizing stats is like saying the best scorers in the game are the ones with the best shot percentage.
PPG is what i go by and what matter the most to me!
Because Koivu does not need to be sent home, or benched, or taken on a stroll in old montreal to get motivated to show up every night. Koivu may not have won the awards but neither has Kovalev. Kovalev performed well in a stanley cup playoff run with the Rangers but they had the ultimate captain in Mark Messier. Kovalev cannot lead a team, he is just too unpredictable. This rubs off on the younger players. With Koivu you at least get consistency. That is way more important then having a sometimes elite player on the team and leading as Captain.
Plus, Koivu has stuck around to lead the Habs for 14 or so years. You don't just let that walk away. Although, I do admit the Habs do tend to do that (i.e. Muller, Damphouse, Turgeon, Keane)
Exactly...gawd, I hate people that fancy themselves as hockey fans when they base everything on stats. There are tons of GREAT team leaders who have never been on teams that had great playoff success.
I look at it this way, just a typical "real game" situation that doesn't show up on stats...and that psuedo hockey fans don't "get"....if we're tied or behind a goal in a do or die game, Kovalev is far more likely to take a stupid, retaliatory penalty than Koivu....or to sit on his butt and pout if a non-call occurred against him, while the play goes back in his zone...he's already proven that.
BS reasoning. Ask yourself why it is that Tanguay plays less.. and its not because of favoritism.
Because Carbonneau can't manage a bench to save his life, that's why.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCH
He can't handle the extra time like Kovalev can.
If Tanguay hadn't spent his entire career playing over eighteen minutes a game rather than less than sixteen, and racked up PPG seasons doing it, you might actually have a valid point.
But Tanguay has shown in the past he can handle the minutes. Not only that, he can handle tough minutes of being matched up against the strongest opposing players and still be productive. That's uncommon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCH
And a goal on the pp is just as valuable as a goal at even strength.
Yes, but it's a lot harder to get. So guys who can get points are even strength are more valuable than those who are mostly productive on the power play.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCH
By your standards Latendresse is the best hab ever!@
Don't be silly. I do think he's underrated and am curious to see what he could do with more icetime (which his production indicates he's earned) but he's far from the best Hab ever.
For one thing, he's clearly not as good as Tanguay.
+/- is a bs stat. Ryder had a better +/- then Chara for chrissakes! How the hell can anybody base anything on that?
And also, Tanguay and Lang were injured for the most part of our slump which would be the OBVIOUS reason for the difference in +/-.
Our maybe they are actually good and helped the team a lot, which is why they had good +/- and when they got hurt that's why the slump was formed and the team just wasn't the same without them ?
Im just wondering.. Are you counting all the PK he played in your calculation or just the EV and PP ice time. Kovalev played a whole lot on the PK this year, I remember games where he played 4-5 minutes. Tanguay did not play at all this year, I believe.
It's a factor. Kovalev's played on the PK some (1:30) and Tanguay almost none (0:22), so that's about one minute of difference. Still, Kovy had more ES time than Tanguay (over a minute more) and more PP time too (about 30 seconds). He just got played more in all situations.
Tanguay is the more productive even strength player by a good margin. I don't think that can be in any dispute. Conversely, Kovalev does better on the power play.
Tanguay does have the ability to kill penalties effectively if called upon -- he did for Calgary last year -- though the Habs chose not to use him that way. Frankly, much as I like seeing Kovy play on the PK, both he and Tanguay have better things to do with their icetime. It makes more sense for the grinders to use up that time and to use the scorers' minutes on situations where they can score. Just because they can kill penalties doesn't mean they should -- that's why we have grinders.
Koivu may not put up huge numbers but he is one of the best leaders in the game. Why would you let that walk away when that is exactly what the Habs need? Gainey just needs to get more of players in Koivu's mold and we will be fine. Kovalev is poison on the younger players, when he is on he is an elite player, when he is off his game he is way off his game and usually needs a break or a talking too or something drastic to bring him out of it. Do you really want that as your Captain? The younger players do not have the elite talent to pull themselves out of slumps like Kovalev does when he gets the "wakeup call."
Koivu brings it every game. Never takes a game off. I do concede he cannot do it alone. But that is why Gainey needs to go out and get one or two more players with his character. Then the younger players will respond.
you let him walk because there's too many chiefs and not enough indians on this team.
Kovy is the logical choice of who to keep. I think he will step it up once he's in charge. He's proven it when he's been given the captaincy.
Kovalev 65 points overall. 0.83 points per game, and he was healthy the whole year.
Tanguay 41 points overall. 0.82 points per game but not much good when he is injured half the year(not his fault but still..)
Lang 39 total points. 0.78 points per game but again injured half the year.
Kovalev was our most effective forward, and there are no "what if's" about it like there would be if you try to argue in favor of Tanguay or Lang.
I do agree we need to keep Kovy as he is tremendously skilled but using that statistic IMO doesn't really help the case as he has inflated numbers. Those 15 points or so in the last 5-8 games really made him do a lot better then he had been all season. We still need to keep kovy but not at 6 million unless its with bonuses.
Our maybe they are actually good and helped the team a lot, which is why they had good +/- and when they got hurt that's why the slump was formed and the team just wasn't the same without them ?
Price played like dog **** in the second half letting is routine save after routine save, that is nobody elses fault on the ice but his own.
If you really want to talk about this bs +/- stat, how the **** is Ryan Kesler up the for selke with a +6? Meanwhile, other forwards like the Sedins were +24 and +22, burrows was +23. Thats a WAY better +/- then Kesler on the same team! Yet Kesler is the selke nominee. Odd isn't it? considering how much importance you guys keep stressing on its meaning... i mean really the way people talk you'd swear the selke nominees would absolutely HAVE to be the 3 forwards in the league with the best +/- stat. ****ers
Based on what??? His awards? Stanley Cups? Art Ross Trophy's??
What makes Koivu such a great leader...because for the last 5 years, I haven't really seen much out of him to tell me how great of a leader he is.
The last 2 seasons tho, I have seen the Habs play some of their best hockey when Kovalev was wearing the C and playing without Koivu. Doesn't that say something about Koivu's leadership right there??
When kovalev is wearing the C ? How many games did Kovalev wear the C is 07-08 season when he got 84 points ? Not many games! your point is baseless!
So cut the crap abt Kovy playing better when wearing the C....its all media BS.
who was your best player in the playoffs last year ? Saku Koivu.....but yet people always find ways to blame him.
When a player like Grabovski says the only player I respect is Koivu....it means a lot.
Why does Gainey have to sit and talk to Kovalev and get him motivated to play hockey when he has already been in the league for 15 years.....is that the type of player you want to lead the team with?????
Koivu is a 2nd line center, always been, but since he never had a 1st line center people love to blame him for everything.
Who has he played with in the past decade that was an elite player ? Savage ? Zednik ? Gilmore ? Higgins ? Ryder ? No one until this year when we got Tanguay who is a ppg player.....after how many years did he get a player to play with.....yet we blame him for everything.....good job...keep it up.
When Craig Rivet goes out and says everything I have learned is from Saku Koivu and it is thanks to him that I have the opportunity to become the captain of the Sabres.....What does that say to you ? .... all it means is Koivu is a not a leader....right? Awful.
You don't have to be the most point getter or best player of your team to be Captain...it doesn't work like that.
Why is Rivet the captain of Sabres??....he is not their best player.
Why is Langenbrunner the captain of the Devils ?
Is the Habs organization pick Kovalev over Koivu, then that is their biggest mistake.
Is the Habs organization pick Kovalev over Koivu, then that is their biggest mistake.
I think the habs would like both back and obviously Koivu will wear the C.
But the real question is will Koivu pick the habs? Nobody knows.
Will Kovalev pick the habs? Absolutely yes he will and is extremely open about that. He said the only reason he hasn't signed is because there has been no attempt by the habs to do so(yet).
When kovalev is wearing the C ? How many games did Kovalev wear the C is 07-08 season when he got 84 points ? Not many games! your point is baseless!
So cut the crap abt Kovy playing better when wearing the C....its all media BS.
who was your best player in the playoffs last year ? Saku Koivu.....but yet people always find ways to blame him. When a player like Grabovski says the only player I respect is Koivu....it means a lot.
Why does Gainey have to sit and talk to Kovalev and get him motivated to play hockey when he has already been in the league for 15 years.....is that the type of player you want to lead the team with?????
Koivu is a 2nd line center, always been, but since he never had a 1st line center people love to blame him for everything.
Who has he played with in the past decade that was an elite player ? Savage ? Zednik ? Gilmore ? Higgins ? Ryder ? No one until this year when we got Tanguay who is a ppg player.....after how many years did he get a player to play with.....yet we blame him for everything.....good job...keep it up.
When Craig Rivet goes out and says everything I have learned is from Saku Koivu and it is thanks to him that I have the opportunity to become the captain of the Sabres.....What does that say to you ? .... all it means is Koivu is a not a leader....right? Awful.
You don't have to be the most point getter or best player of your team to be Captain...it doesn't work like that.
Why is Rivet the captain of Sabres??....he is not their best player.
Why is Langenbrunner the captain of the Devils ?
Is the Habs organization pick Kovalev over Koivu, then that is their biggest mistake.
An endorsement from Grabovski means alot now? lol...
I understand you're points about Koivu's leadership ability and his reputation aroundthe league, I also understand other people's point about Kovalev and his value...but truth be told, alot of Habs fans overvalue both of these guys as players. They're both good players on a good team that has alot of 'good' players but needs more 'great' one's.(hope that makes sense)
Mirtle threw on his trench coat for a clandestine meeting with Russian spies, digging up a few tidbits of note: "Alexei Kovalev has been offered a one-year, $6-million by the Canadiens and could be the team's captain next season"; and "Rangers forward Nik Zherdev, a restricted free agent, has turned down an offer from KHL club Salavat Yulayev Ufa and wants to play in New York next season." [From The Rink]
Would this mean Kovy over Koivu? I sure as hell hope not.
I really don't understand those Koivu vs Kovalev comparisons. Shouldn't we ask ourselves were is the depth of our organization and which players can we obtain via trades or via UFA before trying to know who's more important to this team? They both bring something to this team. But if you end up in having Plekanec and Maxwell in your first 2 centermen and want to be a cup contender, shouldn't it be taken into consideration? Same on the wings?
On the other end, Koivu is good, Kovalev is good. Point made. But isn't the goal to improve? To be better? If the good can be replaced by great, who cares how good is Koivu and Kovalev and especially in a cap world? You end up having 4 better wingers than Kovalev, you don't need Kovalev. You end up having 2 better centermen, you don't need Koivu. I mean it wasn't at the same extent to say the least, but it reminds me of when we signed Garth Murray and Aaron Downey 'cause they were doing the job.....How about trying to get better? As far as Koivu and Kovalev, well clearly they are doing more than the job, but chances are you can still have better players than those ones. Though, it could be a gamble 'cause you might lose them if you don't do your job properly by knowing who might be interested July 1st even though you "officially" can't know before....
Would this mean Kovy over Koivu? I sure as hell hope not.
If Koivu's not back...I think it has more to do with the money/role the Habs are willing/able to offer him as opposed to it being a Kovalev vs. Koivu choice.
Maybe, just maybe, it's better for Koivu at this point in his career to pursue it elsewhere. I'm not saying this is the case, just bringing up the possibility that Koivu's future, may actually be in his own hands...go figure
The way i see it it's either Kovalev @ 6M$ for a year or 9-10M$ for 2 years...as a GM I'd prefer 1 year with the cap likely being affected in 2010-11.
I have no problem with keeping him for 1 more year...he will give you 25-30 g and about 60-70 pts.
As for Saku...1 year 3M$. that's it.
So, Kovalev has 261 pts in 302 games since the lockout whereas Koivu has 243 in 295 and that warrants a $3M pay difference? Not to mention Koivu plays a more difficult position and wasn't sent home by his boss to think about his life...
Either at $6M is a vast overpayment and can only be seen as treading water, waiting to see how the economic climate affects the cap next year. And if that's what the team wants to do they may as well not re-sign either, tank and stockpile draft picks. It would save Gillet a bunch of money.
I'm all for keeping Kovalev, and I really think we should, but it would be a mistake to offer him a raise. I think he was compensated perfectly for what he brought the team over the last 4 seasons. I would offer him another 2 seasons at the same rate. I also think Koivu needs to return. It would be a mistake not to. Koivu and Kovalev showed some absolutely amazing chemistry last season and I would love to see that over a full season.
