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Old
05-26-2009, 02:52 PM
  #101
number 11
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kovalev captain? where was he during 2/3 of the season? saku doesn't put up 80 points but at least he tries harder and sets a better example than anyone on the team.

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05-26-2009, 03:02 PM
  #102
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its clear that the 6mill includes bonuses because gainey is not that stupid. As for whom the habs should sign between koivu and kovy.....well we need koivu because if we dont your looking at a weak center depth for next year with pleky, lapierre, metro, chips. Thats just not gonna cut it. So yes, having koivu will win us more games. Especially with people around these boards wanting to trade pleky, we lose koivu too, if that happens we're not making the playoffs next year. The swedish dude is very likely not ready to play regularly in the nhl and make an impact so thats not an answer for next year.

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05-26-2009, 03:07 PM
  #103
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Seems like rubbish...at least I hope so. I am looking forward to a Kovalevless team.

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05-26-2009, 03:19 PM
  #104
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I think I just threw up a little in my mouth.

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05-26-2009, 03:23 PM
  #105
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Kovalev is superior to Koivu in every hockey sense.

In terms of leadership I don't know, I'm not in the room, but Kovalev is a champion, Koivu isn't.

GO HABS GO means go TEAM go, quit being fanboys. A Koivu-less team isn't so bad.

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05-26-2009, 03:25 PM
  #106
MathMan
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
This must explain why Colorado & Calgary got rid of him - cause he's such a high producer.
Actually, the salary cap is to blame in both cases. One memorable quote from an Flames blog I read at the time of the trade was "Tanguay was crowded out by the suck".

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Originally Posted by onice View Post
Look, during the year I was Tanguay's biggest booster but those two playoff games that tanguay played showed me why those two teams got rid of him.
You mean those two games Tanguay played on the fourth line due to a bum shoulder that kept him out of the last game of the season, and ended up knocking him out of the series?

Yeah, I could see how that would result in a fine, fair and accurate evaluation of a player's overall value.

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05-26-2009, 03:28 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by jpchabby View Post
well let'S not forget Tanguay was injured most of the time that Carbo was the coach, so it's kind of hard to tell for sure...
It's time on ice per game, so the time Tanguay spent injured wouldn't be factored in. Carbo underutilized Tanguay, which wasn't immediately obvious because Tanguay was doing well in spite of that.

Tanguay did notice, though.

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05-26-2009, 03:30 PM
  #108
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IMO we can afford to lose Kovalev because we have enough young wingers in our system who can replace him. The same cannot be said about Koivu.

Just to prove my point, without kovalev we have 7 top 9 wingers (Tanguay, Kost X2, D'agostini, Lats, Pacioretty, Higgins). Thats not to say any of them could replace his production but more just to point out that at least we'd have something, unlike at center.

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Old
05-26-2009, 03:35 PM
  #109
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that actually makes it believable, montreal could be trying to position itself as the destination of choice for high profile Russian FA

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05-26-2009, 03:48 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
Kovalev's -5 looked great in comparison with Tanguay's +13 and Lang's +6, didn't it?

Oh and the by the way, offensively, Kovalev was not the best. In fact, he was behind Koivu, Tanguay, and Lang.

Kovalev PROD RATE: 23:18
Tanguay PROD RATE: 19:36
Lang PROD RATE: 21:37
Koivu PROD RATE: 22:09

Sorry to burst your bubble there.
Both Tanguay and (especially) Koivu cant hope to play as much as Kovalev and remained effective.

If you believe Koivu could still play 20 minutes a night and keep his production rate per minute, you are delusional imo, sorry.
__________

6 M$ is ridiculous. But i guess for 1 year it's possible.

how about 7.5M for 2 years with a 1.5M option for a 3rd year. ?

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05-26-2009, 04:05 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Anksun View Post
Both Tanguay and (especially) Koivu cant hope to play as much as Kovalev and remained effective.
Koivu I'll grant you at this point in his career, but Tanguay? He's proven himself to be able to produce more than Kovalev on the same 18-19 minute level of icetime. He can certainly handle the minutes. In fact he can probably better handle minutes against tougher opposition than Kovalev.

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05-26-2009, 04:34 PM
  #112
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The article is clearly garbage.

Kovalev said he wanted to play here because he wants his kids to finish school here, Kovalev wouldn't expect Bob to give him any type of raise after last season and at his age.

If Bob wanted a new direction for the team and a new leader why the hell would he give it to someone who he's only giving a one year deal?

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05-26-2009, 04:39 PM
  #113
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If Kovalev leave this team who'll score goal?

Seriously who?

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05-26-2009, 04:48 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
You mean those two games Tanguay played on the fourth line due to a bum shoulder that kept him out of the last game of the season, and ended up knocking him out of the series?

Yeah, I could see how that would result in a fine, fair and accurate evaluation of a player's overall value.


If those two games were the only thing to go by, yeah, I could understand your scepticism. But when his rep proceeds him from his two other teams, well, you can't dismiss his play to simply he was hurt. I don't expect Tanguay to play like Neil or Nilan but I do expect him not to hide when the going gets rough. Anyway, this year during the playoffs he was hurt. We'll see what excuse we'll come up with next year.

Personally, I was turned off by his lack of physical fortitude. I could be wrong.

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05-26-2009, 04:54 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by MaxLapierre View Post
Kovalev is superior to Koivu in every hockey sense.

In terms of leadership I don't know, I'm not in the room, but Kovalev is a champion, Koivu isn't.

GO HABS GO means go TEAM go, quit being fanboys. A Koivu-less team isn't so bad.
Kovalev is no champion. He rode the coat-tails of real champions.

Not that it's a bad thing. He can still contribute of course. But the idea of Kovalev as a leader makes me want to vomit.

Such short memories people have here...Do you not ****ing remember Kovalev a few years ago when he put up 40 points and was acting like such a baby? There were people here saying he should've been put on waivers!

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05-26-2009, 04:58 PM
  #116
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Next year is a transition year for our younger players, so I don't really have a problem with this contract.

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05-26-2009, 05:06 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by NHLcrazy View Post
Not saying that Kovy deserves 6M$ (actually does he deserve a raise??) but he should be making much more than an aging, slowed down, injury proned Koivu.

In a perfect world I'd keep both, with Kovy making around 4M$ and Saku around 2.5m$ for a a year maybe two.
Koivu played like 7 less games than Kovalev in the past 4 years and put up similar numbers. I understand where you're coming from in that neither deserves a raise, but there seems to be a misconception on these boards that Koivu is slowing down whereas Kovalev will keep chugging along. Hell, Kovalev is older than Koivu and both bring similar value (though in different ways) to the team.

Considering one of the main weaknesses of this team is a lack of real depth at centre, I don't see why if keeping only one of them is the goal that that one would be Kovalev.

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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
Kovalev is no champion. He rode the coat-tails of real champions.

Not that it's a bad thing. He can still contribute of course. But the idea of Kovalev as a leader makes me want to vomit.

Such short memories people have here...Do you not ****ing remember Kovalev a few years ago when he put up 40 points and was acting like such a baby? There were people here saying he should've been put on waivers!
You really just have to look at this past season, one in which a majority of Habs fans didn't even think Kovalev would finish the year with the team.

I won't pin that one on him, as this season was a disaster all around, but the way some people talk you'd think Kovalev was the one player giving a consistent effort all season when really he was the main scapegoat at one time.

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Old
05-26-2009, 05:26 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Let's not go this far. I mostly agree with your points, but Kovalev can still handle 19 minutes very effectively. He should get as much PP time as he can get especially since that's his forte, but his even-strength production was quite fine -- equivalent to last year's, really. I'd cut into his shorthanded time, if anything, but I think 19 minutes is a good number for him.

IMHO, Tanguay should get extra minutes, but not at the expense of Kovalev. Let's play the fourth-line grinders less instead; Tanguay is more effective than them defensively anyway and the fourth-liners aren't the future either, so it's a win-win.
Instead he
If he gets three soft minutes that used to go to fourth-liners, he can butcher that weak opposition.

That was Carbo's biggest failing as a coach -- he had tons of forward depth but couldn't exploit it to create mismatches. Instead he wasted it by refusing to limit his beloved grinders' minutes to give his stronger players more icetime. If you have lines able to handle 19, 19, 15 and 12 minutes, you need to cut down on the fourth line's minutes and use them to spell the top lines and keep them fresh -- not keep the fourth line at 12 minutes and cut down on the icetime of more valuable players.
Kovalev had the most time on ice at ES even when others are better and more productive at it.

I don't care if Kovalev plays 19min as long as his center around 21min and his other winger also averages similar minutes.

Like I said, I don't want Kovalev to be taking up 19min when A.Kost has 15min and Lats around 14. To me that's just bad development.
We're not talking about rookies here. At some point they'll need more playing time if we want them to develop well.

I don't really care where we get the extra minutes, whether it's at the detriment of Kovalev or the 4th liners or Koivu or whomever. If we want certain players to hold a more important role, we're gonna have to give them the proper ice time to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
This must explain why Colorado & Calgary got rid of him - cause he's such a high producer.

Look, during the year I was Tanguay's biggest booster but those two playoff games that tanguay played showed me why those two teams got rid of him. He's soft and disappears when the going gets rough. Of the two: Kovalev or Tanguay - I would take Kovalev 9 times out of 9.
Tanguay was injured..were you that lost??

Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
If those two games were the only thing to go by, yeah, I could understand your scepticism. But when his rep proceeds him from his two other teams, well, you can't dismiss his play to simply he was hurt. I don't expect Tanguay to play like Neil or Nilan but I do expect him not to hide when the going gets rough. Anyway, this year during the playoffs he was hurt. We'll see what excuse we'll come up with next year.

Personally, I was turned off by his lack of physical fortitude. I could be wrong.
Ya, he also had 21pts in 23Gp for Colorado's cup run.
The following year he had 13pts in 19GP, that's pretty decent.

Tanguay has never been a physical dude, if you expected that than you just didn't know him. I followed the Avs passionately all the way to the lock out, so I knew what to expect.

He can be a great help but to expect him to be the key ingredient is a mistake.

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Old
05-26-2009, 05:32 PM
  #119
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Kovalev at 6 million would mean Bob is completely senile and i don't think thats quite the case yet.

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05-26-2009, 05:37 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
If those two games were the only thing to go by, yeah, I could understand your scepticism. But when his rep proceeds him from his two other teams, well, you can't dismiss his play to simply he was hurt.
His rep precedes him? This is a guy with a near-PPG playoff run on his resume, including a Stanley Cup winning goal, no less. His overall playoff numbers are actually pretty similar to Pavel Datsyuk's.

One wonders what this rep is made of, other than stereotypes and bad cliches.

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Originally Posted by onice View Post
Personally, I was turned off by his lack of physical fortitude. I could be wrong.
"Physical fortitude" is a tool, like passing skills or vision or fast skating. It's always good to have, but it's still a means to an end, not to be confused with an end in and of itself. Lack of physicality has not prevented Tanguay from being a highly effective player ever since he came into the league.

Every time someone brings up Tanguay's supposed softness, I like to bring up Andrei Markov. The two play rather similar games and have many of the same strengths and weaknesses, so an argument for ditching Tanguay tends to translate directly into an argument for ditching Markov.

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Old
05-26-2009, 05:41 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Kovalev had the most time on ice at ES even when others are better and more productive at it.
Yes, but that doesn't imply that he had too much, that some other players (such as Tanguay) had too little. Kovalev handled the minutes he was given very well, it's not his utilization that is an issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Like I said, I don't want Kovalev to be taking up 19min when A.Kost has 15min and Lats around 14. To me that's just bad development.
I wouldn't want Kovy to lose minutes just to develop the kids either. We have a fourth line, let them get piddly minutes. That's what they're for.

Kovalev gets the right amount of icetime and has handled it effectively. There were problems with practically everyone else's icetime though.

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05-26-2009, 05:44 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Djee#9 View Post
If Kovalev leave this team who'll score goal?

Seriously who?
Guys with better goal-scoring rates than Kovalev at even-strength:
Andrei Kostitsyn
Guillaume Latendresse
Alex Tanguay (seriously!)

On the power play, it gets dicier, but Kovalev didn't have a banner year at PP goal-scoring and he was out-produced by a lot of players, including AKost, Koivu, and even Plekanec.

Giving AKost and Lats more responsibility could easily result in them turning up higher goal-scoring totals. Their rate stats over the last 2-3 years indicate they should be able to if they get the opportunity.

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Old
05-26-2009, 05:49 PM
  #123
HH
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I love Koivu but I for one would go in another direction. Start from fresh with a new captain.

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05-26-2009, 05:50 PM
  #124
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" According to Russian media reports ... "

Sure ! Gainey used to call the russian media to explains all his plans ...

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05-26-2009, 05:57 PM
  #125
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Guys with better goal-scoring rates than Kovalev at even-strength:
Andrei Kostitsyn
Guillaume Latendresse
Alex Tanguay (seriously!)

On the power play, it gets dicier, but Kovalev didn't have a banner year at PP goal-scoring and he was out-produced by a lot of players, including AKost, Koivu, and even Plekanec.

Giving AKost and Lats more responsibility could easily result in them turning up higher goal-scoring totals. Their rate stats over the last 2-3 years indicate they should be able to if they get the opportunity.
Some people can't wrap their heads around the idea that someone other than Kovalev, could actually produce with increased icetime or more responsibility.

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