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Toronto Maple Leafs Draft Discussion v 4.0

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Old
05-28-2009, 02:50 AM
  #26
The Wyzerhood
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Originally Posted by Faltorvo View Post
Well your both speculating on future moves that have yet to happen.

There is as much chance that none of those trades happen or that dever or may are not resigned. So when things do change so will my opinion but for the time being 6 of those 8 vets are on the team and the other two could likely be resigned.

As for the getz/perry-Richards/Carter draft season, you missed my point. I was stating that i would not be satisfied until we had a fortunate draft year where we get a star players with later first round picks.

Well i think it's ridiculous for someone to think it's ridiculous for a fan to set high standards for it's teams long term plan with top 3 picks.

Things are looking awful rosy for Pitt,Chi,Wash,St.Loo these days aren't they?

I guess it does not matter one bit to you that 3 of the final 4 teams key go to guys are top 3 draft picks.

You hold onto you pie in the sky (we can be the next Detroit) cupcake, I'm not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HellasLEAF View Post
so it makes more sense to fill the team with players that will not be around when this team is competitive. or will not be around when our prospects (who aren't getting quality minutes, because those are going to the veterans) are good enough to help the team win hockey games. Now that doesn't make sense.



who's being rushed here. of course we would only introduce young players ready to start learning at the NHL level.



you make it sound like this team has nobody over 24. we have experienced players already under contract that can do what you are asking. what we need is to fill the holes with Leaf property that are ready to step in. now, if a Rick Nash gets signed or a Bouwmeester or possibly even a Cammaleri (a player still relatively young signed longterm who will be around when we are ready to win) then I'm fine with that. but multiple signing (Frogren, Hagman, Mayers, Finger) of players that won't make a difference in the future and take up capspace and roster spots that can be better used, is unnecessary this time around.
This is a response to both quotes.

Yes, we are speculating on moves that have not happened yet, and also yes your argument is slightly flawed. I understand that Chicago, St.Louis, Pittsburgh, and Washington did not always have as many vets when they were rebuilding, but look how many they have now. What happened to the players they let grow and develop on their pro roster? Most of them weren't of a good enough caliber to stick around, and were replaced with "vets". St.Louis has 8 players that are born 1979 and earlier (Brewer, Mason, McKee, McDonald, Kariya, Tkachuk, Hinote, and Weaver), Pittsburgh has 13 (Guerin, Eaton, Gill, Gonchar, Scuderi, Boucher, Cooke, Dupuis, Fedotenko, Satan, Sykora, Kunitz, and C.Adams), Carolina 9 (Corvo, F.Kaberle, Wallin, Brind'Amour, Cullen, Samsonov, Whitney, Cole and Walker), Washington has 10 (Kozlov, Fedorov, B.Johnson, Theodore, Pothier, Poti, Nylander, Brashear, M.Bradley, and Clark). Chicago is the only team that supports your comment about letting their youth grow and develop on one roster with only 5 players born 1979 and earlier (Huet, Khabibulin, Campbell, Sopel, and Pahlsson). The fact is though, that those were all dead hockey cities for 5-10 years where a rebuild was possible. Not only is Toronto a crazy hockey market where fans demand immediate results, but the General Manager is extremely competitive and takes it as a failure when his team does not reach the playoffs. If you think it's a waste of time to sign players via the free agent market then you're gravely mistaken. As you can see from arguably the best team of that bunch (Pittsburgh), they have several veteran players. The players I've speculated on mostly are born 1980 and later, so I don't see how they're vets that won't contribute in the future. If you include players born from 1980-1983 as well, which is the range of players I listed that Toronto is interested in, then the teams of Washington, Carolina, St.Louis, Chicago, and Pittsburgh would include more than half the team. The reality is, the draft's no science and finishing in the bottom 3 will not necessarily give you a Crosby, Malkin, Toews, or Kane. Remember for every one of those franchise players, there's a Daigle, Stefan, Zherdev, Yashin, Brendl etc. I would rather see this team play competitively, add pieces in free agency that will help them down the road (who by the way in my standards are no where close to 'vets'), and draft shrewdly. You can't give prospects so much ice time and place them onto the pro roster; we have 10 vets (if you want to include may, devereaux, van ryn and toskala) but that is nowhere close to what other teams have that are seeing more success. The main building blocks should be young guys that we drafted, but none of our prospects scream franchise player like Ovechkin, Crosby, etc. You make it sound like we have no players under the age of 24 on the roster; we already have Grabovski, Stajan, Hanson, Schenn, White, Kulemin, Mitchell, Bozak (not sure if he's considered on the roster yet) and Stempniak; we can't afford to give up another 5 roster spots for prospects in the AHL or the CHL. Another 2 spots is, however, completely reasonable.

I don't understand how players like Cammalleri, Moen, Peters/Orr, Beauchemin won't be around when the team is ready to compete. They're all under 30 years of age and most are just starting to peak in their careers. These players are definitely not Hagman, Finger, Frogren, and Mayers so open up your eyes. They're all legitimate, fairly young players who will certainly give this team a chance to win, but not one that will push them into the playoffs. It gives the younger prospects that aren't ready for the league like Stalberg, DiDomenico, Hayes, and Stefanovich a chance to prove themselves at the AHL level before making the momentous jump. The only guys from the AHL or CHL that are even close to being ready are Tlusty, Stralman, Stapleton, Williams, and Sifers.

Without a doubt, I would like to see Tlusty and Stralman play in the show next year for a full season, to see if they are truly special or just hyped up talent. But to say our team should be filled with what was leftover last year and to add in prospects is a joke to Burke. It's nice to dream of a proper rebuild, but you have to remember what city this is and who's running the franchise. Burke will not want to be the New York Islanders of last year, Washington Capitals of past years before Ovechkin etc. This team has already missed the playoffs 4 years in a row; do you know how impatient the majority of Toronto fans are? You say no one's being rushed, but there are not more than the 5 players listed in the previous paragraph that are close to ready. Sifers doesn't project to be more than a 6-7 defenseman, Stapleton is a 2nd line center at best and we have 3 in Grabovski, Bozak and Stajan already, Williams is a bottom top 6 forward on the high end and not gritty enough to play a bottom 6 role on a Burke team. The only legitimate ones to make the roster are Stralman and Tlusty, and even with the additions of the speculated Cammalleri, Moen, Peters/Orr, and Beauchemin there is still a spot or two to let them prove they are worthy.

It's still ridiculous for a fan to dream of a top 3 pick, because the reality is in a market like Toronto it will not happen. Even in a year, like this one, our team finds a way to win. You realize, with the roster we had we should have been a top 3 pick. We were slated to be a lock for the top 5 but played our way slightly on the outside of the playoff race. It's completely realistic for Burke to believe that after this year's draft and free agent period, his team will either make the playoffs or be very close. You also realize that Backstrom, Semin, Green, Boyes, Berglund, Oshie, C.Ward, Keith, Seabrook were all not drafted in the top 3 either. If I'm correct, they all played a huge role in their team making it that far in the playoffs. Of course, no one is overlooking the contributions of the top 3 in Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Fleury, Kane and Toews but the point is that shrewd drafting gets you there. It's great to have a top 3 pick, but it's not a necessity to build a winner. Anaheim, New Jersey and Detroit are glowing examples of my point. Bottoming out and getting a top 3 pick is a great strategy if the draft year is deep, but as I stated before the lottery could turn out unfavorably for us and add insult to injury for the season we just tanked.

My post might be all over the place, as I skipped from arguments here and there but try to get and understand the general gist of it all. All of your opinions are definitely valid and what should happen for a rebuild, but you're underestimating the Toronto factor plus Burke.


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Old
05-28-2009, 02:59 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Red Forman View Post
Man, if we don't get one of Tavares, Duchene, Schenn, or MPS, I'm going to be extremely disappointed. Kane, and Cowen would be decent consolation prizes, but I think those five are the money.
LOL and i see getting a Kane or Cowen and not giving up any assests to get them IS the money.

As far as i can tell last years top 5 is this years top 7.

I understand trading last year to get into that fabled 5 but seeing how this year is the super 7, meh! hold onto your assests and take what you earner and draft 7th.

It's not like we are in any position to say "we don't need xxxxx type of young stud, we need xxxx player".

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05-28-2009, 03:29 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by The Swamp View Post
This is a response to both quotes.

Yes, we are speculating on moves that have not happened yet, and also yes your argument is slightly flawed. I understand that Chicago, St.Louis, Pittsburgh, and Washington did not always have as many vets when they were rebuilding, but look how many they have now. What happened to the players they let grow and develop on their pro roster? Most of them weren't of a good enough caliber to stick around, and were replaced with "vets". St.Louis has 8 players that are born 1979 and earlier (Brewer, Mason, McKee, McDonald, Kariya, Tkachuk, Hinote, and Weaver), Pittsburgh has 13 (Guerin, Eaton, Gill, Gonchar, Scuderi, Boucher, Cooke, Dupuis, Fedotenko, Satan, Sykora, Kunitz, and C.Adams), Carolina 9 (Corvo, F.Kaberle, Wallin, Brind'Amour, Cullen, Samsonov, Whitney, Cole and Walker), Washington has 10 (Kozlov, Fedorov, B.Johnson, Theodore, Pothier, Poti, Nylander, Brashear, M.Bradley, and Clark). Chicago is the only team that supports your comment about letting their youth grow and develop on one roster with only 5 players born 1979 and earlier (Huet, Khabibulin, Campbell, Sopel, and Pahlsson). The fact is though, that those were all dead hockey cities for 5-10 years where a rebuild was possible. Not only is Toronto a crazy hockey market where fans demand immediate results, but the General Manager is extremely competitive and takes it as a failure when his team does not reach the playoffs. If you think it's a waste of time to sign players via the free agent market then you're gravely mistaken. As you can see from arguably the best team of that bunch (Pittsburgh), they have several veteran players. The players I've speculated on mostly are born 1980 and later, so I don't see how they're vets that won't contribute in the future. If you include players born from 1980-1983 as well, which is the range of players I listed that Toronto is interested in, then the teams of Washington, Carolina, St.Louis, Chicago, and Pittsburgh would include more than half the team. The reality is, the draft's no science and finishing in the bottom 3 will not necessarily give you a Crosby, Malkin, Toews, or Kane. Remember for every one of those franchise players, there's a Daigle, Stefan, Zherdev, Yashin, Brendl etc. I would rather see this team play competitively, add pieces in free agency that will help them down the road (who by the way in my standards are no where close to 'vets'), and draft shrewdly. You can't give prospects so much ice time and place them onto the pro roster; we have 10 vets (if you want to include may, devereaux, van ryn and toskala) but that is nowhere close to what other teams have that are seeing more success. The main building blocks should be young guys that we drafted, but none of our prospects scream franchise player like Ovechkin, Crosby, etc. You make it sound like we have no players under the age of 24 on the roster; we already have Grabovski, Stajan, Hanson, Schenn, White, Kulemin, Mitchell, Bozak (not sure if he's considered on the roster yet) and Stempniak; we can't afford to give up another 5 roster spots for prospects in the AHL or the CHL. Another 2 spots is, however, completely reasonable.

I don't understand how players like Cammalleri, Moen, Peters/Orr, Beauchemin won't be around when the team is ready to compete. They're all under 30 years of age and most are just starting to peak in their careers. These players are definitely not Hagman, Finger, Frogren, and Mayers so open up your eyes. They're all legitimate, fairly young players who will certainly give this team a chance to win, but not one that will push them into the playoffs. It gives the younger prospects that aren't ready for the league like Stalberg, DiDomenico, Hayes, and Stefanovich a chance to prove themselves at the AHL level before making the momentous jump. The only guys from the AHL or CHL that are even close to being ready are Tlusty, Stralman, Stapleton, Williams, and Sifers.

Without a doubt, I would like to see Tlusty and Stralman play in the show next year for a full season, to see if they are truly special or just hyped up talent. But to say our team should be filled with what was leftover last year and to add in prospects is a joke to Burke. It's nice to dream of a proper rebuild, but you have to remember what city this is and who's running the franchise. Burke will not want to be the New York Islanders of last year, Washington Capitals of past years before Ovechkin etc. This team has already missed the playoffs 4 years in a row; do you know how impatient the majority of Toronto fans are? You say no one's being rushed, but there are not more than the 5 players listed in the previous paragraph that are close to ready. Sifers doesn't project to be more than a 6-7 defenseman, Stapleton is a 2nd line center at best and we have 3 in Grabovski, Bozak and Stajan already, Williams is a bottom top 6 forward on the high end and not gritty enough to play a bottom 6 role on a Burke team. The only legitimate ones to make the roster are Stralman and Tlusty, and even with the additions of the speculated Cammalleri, Moen, Peters/Orr, and Beauchemin there is still a spot or two to let them prove they are worthy.

It's still ridiculous for a fan to dream of a top 3 pick, because the reality is in a market like Toronto it will not happen. Even in a year, like this one, our team finds a way to win. You realize, with the roster we had we should have been a top 3 pick. We were slated to be a lock for the top 5 but played our way slightly on the outside of the playoff race. It's completely realistic for Burke to believe that after this year's draft and free agent period, his team will either make the playoffs or be very close. You also realize that Backstrom, Semin, Green, Boyes, Berglund, Oshie, C.Ward, Keith, Seabrook were all not drafted in the top 3 either. If I'm correct, they all played a huge role in their team making it that far in the playoffs. Of course, no one is overlooking the contributions of the top 3 in Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Fleury, Kane and Toews but the point is that shrewd drafting gets you there. It's great to have a top 3 pick, but it's not a necessity to build a winner. Anaheim, New Jersey and Detroit are glowing examples of my point. Bottoming out and getting a top 3 pick is a great strategy if the draft year is deep, but as I stated before the lottery could turn out unfavorably for us and add insult to injury for the season we just tanked.

My post might be all over the place, as I skipped from arguments here and there but try to get and understand the general gist of it all. All of your opinions are definitely valid and what should happen for a rebuild, but you're underestimating the Toronto factor plus Burke.
Ya well your argument against a deep high draft possition rebuild holds no water with me.
You try to convince me there is this high preassure from fans that we will not tollarate something like this?

HRMM lets see, 4 years with no playoffs and yet we still have a seasons tickets turn over of what? 25 seats a year? A waiting list for seasons tickets, a coach and GM on long term contracts.

I ask you, if this is not a franchise that could weather a 2 or 3 year down turn so we can draft the next OV,Sid,Gino who the hell can?

As for your assertion that for every Kane and Sid to be drafted in the top 3, there is an equal amount of failures in the top 3 is flat out incorrect by a long long shot.

You are also ignoring the fact that many of those VETS you listed up there where picked up AFTER the teams did there years drafting in the top 3.

Fine i get it, your impatience you don't want any short term pain for long term gain. R. Peddie is that you ?

Mark my words, you will get your wish, for it is right inline with the BOGs demands, fix this thing now and we don't care about long term top end growth. Get us back to mediocre.

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05-28-2009, 07:32 AM
  #29
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well said. saved me a post ^^^

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05-28-2009, 07:38 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Red Forman View Post
Man, if we don't get one of Tavares, Duchene, Schenn, or MPS, I'm going to be extremely disappointed. Kane, and Cowen would be decent consolation prizes, but I think those five are the money.
You won't be disappointed at 7 unless Burke goes off the board.

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05-28-2009, 07:51 AM
  #31
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You won't be disappointed at 7 unless Burke goes off the board.
This is my feeling exactly. IMO, the Leafs should stand pat. This team is paper thin in terms of prospects and trading away 2nd and 3rd rounders to move a couple of spots in a deep draft may not be the best move for the Leafs right now.

The Leafs still have an excellent chance at getting the guy they want in Schenn at 7, in fact, I think we will get Schenn at 7 but Cowen, Kane, MSP would all be great draft choices as well. The Leafs are losing out on top end talent with the 7th overall pick.

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05-28-2009, 09:04 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Faltorvo View Post
Ya well your argument against a deep high draft possition rebuild holds no water with me.
You try to convince me there is this high preassure from fans that we will not tollarate something like this?

HRMM lets see, 4 years with no playoffs and yet we still have a seasons tickets turn over of what? 25 seats a year? A waiting list for seasons tickets, a coach and GM on long term contracts.

I ask you, if this is not a franchise that could weather a 2 or 3 year down turn so we can draft the next OV,Sid,Gino who the hell can?

As for your assertion that for every Kane and Sid to be drafted in the top 3, there is an equal amount of failures in the top 3 is flat out incorrect by a long long shot.

You are also ignoring the fact that many of those VETS you listed up there where picked up AFTER the teams did there years drafting in the top 3.

Fine i get it, your impatience you don't want any short term pain for long term gain. R. Peddie is that you ?

Mark my words, you will get your wish, for it is right inline with the BOGs demands, fix this thing now and we don't care about long term top end growth. Get us back to mediocre.
An Ovechkin or a Crosby are going to be available in the next few years? What is his name, I am pretty sure that Taylor Hall isn't one of those generational players.

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05-28-2009, 09:53 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Faltorvo View Post
Ya bottoming out and getting top 3 draft picks really screwed up Pitt, Chi, Car , Wash,St.Loo
Well St. Louis hasn't really iced their "bottom out" roster yet and Carolina has 1 player on theirs who is a lottery pick. Chicago, Washington and Pitts both bottomed out in a similar manner to Philly where it wasn't planned and they were trying to make the playoffs until the bottom fell out. Many here felt this years Leafs team would be bottom 2-3. Didn't work out that way.

I have no problem with us bringing along youth, but we can't piss away seasons on the hope we'll be bad enough to be in the lottery.

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05-28-2009, 09:59 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Faltorvo View Post
Ya well your argument against a deep high draft possition rebuild holds no water with me.
You try to convince me there is this high preassure from fans that we will not tollarate something like this?

HRMM lets see, 4 years with no playoffs and yet we still have a seasons tickets turn over of what? 25 seats a year? A waiting list for seasons tickets, a coach and GM on long term contracts.

I ask you, if this is not a franchise that could weather a 2 or 3 year down turn so we can draft the next OV,Sid,Gino who the hell can?

As for your assertion that for every Kane and Sid to be drafted in the top 3, there is an equal amount of failures in the top 3 is flat out incorrect by a long long shot.

You are also ignoring the fact that many of those VETS you listed up there where picked up AFTER the teams did there years drafting in the top 3.

Fine i get it, your impatience you don't want any short term pain for long term gain. R. Peddie is that you ?

Mark my words, you will get your wish, for it is right inline with the BOGs demands, fix this thing now and we don't care about long term top end growth. Get us back to mediocre.
I'm not impatient, I'm just realistic. I know that this rebuild isn't going to last another 2-3 years in earnest. I know how Brian Burke and the Toronto franchise work. You, and HellasLeaf, on the other hand do not seem to follow; I am all for a rebuild that takes a few years, but the fact is that it WILL NOT happen. That's what I'm trying to say, and you both keep saying well it should happen like this. You think I don't know what a proper rebuild is? I'm still pointing out that it won't happen like that.

To the next point, do you know how many kids in any given draft turn out to be failures? Less than 30 percent of players in drafts actually play a significant role on their respective teams. There are plenty of players drafted in the top 3 that did not pan out to their expectations. The best example being the year of the big 5; They said you couldn't go wrong with anyone in the top 5, well turns out the best player was selected 5th overall to the Penguins in Jagr not in the top 3. You put way too much stock into an unproven commodity, and overlook factors that might hinder their success. Not to mention the fact, that there are no Sids, Ovies, and Malkins coming up in future drafts either.

This franchise is not like other franchises, we don't have the time it takes to properly rebuild. Both of you think that fans will always be there, and this is true but they are very restless. They support the team through thick and thin but they are very impatient and like the media get on players' cases and boo them on occasional nights.

You still have failed to show me how 26, 27, and 28 year old players like Cammalleri, Moen, Beauchemin are already called "vets". They've been in the league for about 6 seasons max, so does that automatically make them veteran players? So a player who's just been in the league here and then, then suddenly breaks out 2 or 3 years a go is suddenly a washed up "vet"? I already pointed out that a lot of those listed vets from Carolina, St.Louis, Washington, and Pittsburgh were added after so thank you for re-iterating what I said but I understood it clearly the first time. Fact is, you're always going to need those types of players; Toronto has some but just not the right ones.

Stop putting words in my mouth saying I am impatient and want to rush a rebuild. I NEVER said any of that; all I said was how it's really going to happen from perspective on Burke and past Toronto teams. You have to learn how to read my posts.

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05-28-2009, 10:08 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by HellasLEAF View Post
that's pretty much word for word. but man it sounds good to me!

"I would like to announce a trade. The Colarado Avalanche trade the 3rd overall selection to the Toronto Maple Leafs."

Burke: "The Toronto Maple Leafs proudly select, from the Brampton Battalion of the Ontario Hockey League....Matt Duchene."

I actually had this dream a week ago. This would make my year!!
they are the least likely team to trade their pick ...they have one of the best spots available ...if someone goes off the board and takes Duchene, they get Hedman, else, they have their Sakic replacement in Duchene.

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05-28-2009, 10:10 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Faltorvo View Post
LOL and i see getting a Kane or Cowen and not giving up any assests to get them IS the money.

As far as i can tell last years top 5 is this years top 7.

I understand trading last year to get into that fabled 5 but seeing how this year is the super 7, meh! hold onto your assests and take what you earner and draft 7th.

It's not like we are in any position to say "we don't need xxxxx type of young stud, we need xxxx player".
I'd say last years top 3 are = this years top 7 ...with Bogo being the low end player = to Cowen.

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05-28-2009, 10:14 AM
  #37
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they are the least likely team to trade their pick ...they have one of the best spots available ...if someone goes off the board and takes Duchene, they get Hedman, else, they have their Sakic replacement in Duchene.
Agreed. Don't know where Leafs fans get the notion that the Avs are going to trade that pick.

First off, there is nothing on the Leafs roster or prospect wise that the Avs would want. Unless the Leafs are throwing Schenn and the 7th their way there is no way the Avs give up that pick.

Secondly, Duchene is the perfect prospect for the Avs with Sakic likely playing in his last seasons next year. With Duchene and Stastny the Avs are set for a long time down the middle. Lacorix is licking his chops knowing that he will soon have Duchene as property of the Avalanche.

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05-28-2009, 10:18 AM
  #38
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I'd say last years top 3 are = this years top 7 ...with Bogo being the low end player = to Cowen.
IMO, Bogosian was and still is a better player than Cowen. If Cowen equals anyone it's Luke Schenn at 5. Even Pietrangelo is better than Cowen imo. Alex has an all round game whereas Cowen is strictly defensive.

This years draft is different from last years because this year's top 7 is is mostly forwards while last year was dmen. Hard to compare the two positions especially when the forward position is the more attractive of the two.

I would last draft was 6 picks deep while this year it's 7 picks deep. Everyone forgets Filatov. If Filatov where in this years draft he is likely a top 6-7 pick again, he's that good.

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05-28-2009, 10:19 AM
  #39
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For reference:

Quote:
There are at least two reasons why Brian Burke would trade up to select Luke Schenn's younger brother at next month's NHL Entry Draft.

One involves the weakened economy: "You only have to pay for one ticket on a father-son trip," the Toronto Maple Leafs general manager joked. The other has to do with bloodlines: "You're getting a Schenn."

That last explanation is why many believe Brayden Schenn will be wearing a Leafs uniform next season. Burke prefers character players who are not afraid to get their hands dirty. And the 6-foot, 192-pound power forward, who is 22 months younger than his older brother, accumulated 88 points and 82 penalty minutes in the Western Hockey League last season.

"We like [Schenn] irrespective of his lineage," Burke said. "But the fact that he's Luke's brother has some appeal."

The Leafs moved up two spots -- from seventh to fifth -- last year in order to draft Luke Schenn. Toronto is slated to pick seventh again might have to move again to get brother Brayden, ranked as the fourth-best North American skater by NHL Central Scouting.

"Brayden, evaluated independently, is a gem in this year's draft," said E. J. Maguire, the director of NHL Central Scouting. "This kid is going to get drafted really high because he's really good."

...

"It makes you want these players more intently," Maguire said. "Whether the Leafs move up to the five spot or not is a bit of intrigue for the Toronto people locally. But it would be nice to have that brother combination, although it hasn't hurt the Staals to be playing on different teams."

The Schenns have played on the same team only once, when Brayden was bumped up an age group in novice. Neither brother has much memory of that season. But both remember the one time they met as opponents in the Western Hockey League.

"Luke got the better of me," admitted Brayden, whose Brandon Wheat Kings lost 8-1 to Luke's Kelowna Rockets in the 2007-08 season. "He knocked me on my a--."

"I caught him pretty good," Luke told The Hockey News. "I had to let him know who was the older brother, who was the tough one."

Indeed, Luke is about two inches taller and 15 pounds heavier than Brayden. But outsude of the rink and the gym, there is one area where the kid brother has his older brother's numbers: video games.

"Since he's been home, we've played about 15 games [of NHL '09] and he's beaten me just once," said Brayden. "So I got the edge on X-Box."

If the Leafs trade up to the fourth spot to pick Brayden, there might be more for him to brag about.

"I'm definitely excited -- and my parents are too -- about the chance of me maybe being a part of the Leafs organization," he said. "You never know what can happen on draft day. But it's just going to be a great relief and excitement to play on any team."
Full article... http://www.nationalpost.com/sports/s...tml?id=1637128

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05-28-2009, 10:48 AM
  #40
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I'm not impatient, I'm just realistic. I know that this rebuild isn't going to last another 2-3 years in earnest. I know how Brian Burke and the Toronto franchise work. You, and HellasLeaf, on the other hand do not seem to follow; I am all for a rebuild that takes a few years, but the fact is that it WILL NOT happen. That's what I'm trying to say, and you both keep saying well it should happen like this. You think I don't know what a proper rebuild is? I'm still pointing out that it won't happen like that.
Hey. You're saying what will happen. I'm saying what should happen. Fine.

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To the next point, do you know how many kids in any given draft turn out to be failures? Less than 30 percent of players in drafts actually play a significant role on their respective teams. There are plenty of players drafted in the top 3 that did not pan out to their expectations. The best example being the year of the big 5; They said you couldn't go wrong with anyone in the top 5, well turns out the best player was selected 5th overall to the Penguins in Jagr not in the top 3. You put way too much stock into an unproven commodity, and overlook factors that might hinder their success. Not to mention the fact, that there are no Sids, Ovies, and Malkins coming up in future drafts either.
we put too much stock in an unproven commodity? damn right we do! that's because we have neglected this commodity over the years and it's gotten us nowhere. I'll tell you what's proven. Our past failures and 'strategy'. now I wouldn't complain if we were living in the pre cap era. Just sign more guys. But that philosophy is a thing of the past. You can take those percentages and throw them out the window as far as I'm concerned. A young core has to be in place, that are preferably very talented of course, making prospect/young player/contract before UFA type money in order to properly spend around the team in order to put the best team on the ice.

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This franchise is not like other franchises, we don't have the time it takes to properly rebuild. Both of you think that fans will always be there, and this is true but they are very restless. They support the team through thick and thin but they are very impatient and like the media get on players' cases and boo them on occasional nights.
Your right it's not like other franchises. We actually DO have the time. I'm not sure why you can't understand this. If the Carolina Hurricanes start losing and go into a prolonged rebuild for example. The fans will start leaving, the money will start leaving and THAT my friend, is real pressure. Financial. We can lose and lose, as long as there is a clear plan set forth by management the fans will grumble, but they'll be there. We will be just fine.

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You still have failed to show me how 26, 27, and 28 year old players like Cammalleri, Moen, Beauchemin are already called "vets". They've been in the league for about 6 seasons max, so does that automatically make them veteran players? So a player who's just been in the league here and then, then suddenly breaks out 2 or 3 years a go is suddenly a washed up "vet"? I already pointed out that a lot of those listed vets from Carolina, St.Louis, Washington, and Pittsburgh were added after so thank you for re-iterating what I said but I understood it clearly the first time. Fact is, you're always going to need those types of players; Toronto has some but just not the right ones.
I would be ok with 1 signing of a younger aged player in that age span to a longterm contract. he will be around to help this team when it's ready to really compete. but a number of off season signing just take away roster spots, take away minutes and opportunity to players WE OWN. Our property. Giving the spots away to hired guns isn't how you rebuild a team. It's what you do when you want to push for a Stanley Cup.

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05-28-2009, 11:30 AM
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The Leafs haven't made the playoff in four years yet didn't they still make record profits this season? Even if they didn't, they still made some 100 million plus. The notion that another two or three seasons of missed playoffs will have any significant or lasting impact on the club makes no sense.

Anyways, I'm not even sure I buy this idea that Burke is necessarily gunning for the playoffs. Unless I missed something(which is entirely possible), he merely said that he wants to make the playoffs. Well, duh... I want Schenn to be a 30+ minute defensive guru, Kulemin to score 30, have grabovski at a ppg and stajan as a consistant top six forward, and have other guys step up to make that happen. We all want that to happen, doesn't mean we're planning on it

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05-28-2009, 12:08 PM
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The Leafs haven't made the playoff in four years yet didn't they still make record profits this season? Even if they didn't, they still made some 100 million plus. The notion that another two or three seasons of missed playoffs will have any significant or lasting impact on the club makes no sense.

Anyways, I'm not even sure I buy this idea that Burke is necessarily gunning for the playoffs. Unless I missed something(which is entirely possible), he merely said that he wants to make the playoffs. Well, duh... I want Schenn to be a 30+ minute defensive guru, Kulemin to score 30, have grabovski at a ppg and stajan as a consistant top six forward, and have other guys step up to make that happen. We all want that to happen, doesn't mean we're planning on it
That's true. Burke has said things like intending to trade up in the draft. He is kind of direct and outspoken about his intentions. But he has never really said anything about making this a playoff club for next year has he? I don't ever recall seeing anything said about that which would be unlike him if it were his intention.

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05-28-2009, 12:46 PM
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The Leafs haven't made the playoff in four years yet didn't they still make record profits this season? Even if they didn't, they still made some 100 million plus. The notion that another two or three seasons of missed playoffs will have any significant or lasting impact on the club makes no sense.
It makes a lot of sense, people will find other ways to spend their time and money.

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05-28-2009, 01:16 PM
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An Ovechkin or a Crosby are going to be available in the next few years? What is his name, I am pretty sure that Taylor Hall isn't one of those generational players.
Oh don't worry MO i'm not one of these top 3 guys that HAS to get a Sid,OV,Gino out of it. I'll settle for a Teows, E Staal, Kane, Pronger

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05-28-2009, 01:21 PM
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It makes a lot of sense, people will find other ways to spend their time and money.
They haven't in the last four years. What makes you so sure the next 2 or 3 would be drastically different?

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05-28-2009, 02:56 PM
  #46
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This is my feeling exactly. IMO, the Leafs should stand pat. This team is paper thin in terms of prospects and trading away 2nd and 3rd rounders to move a couple of spots in a deep draft may not be the best move for the Leafs right now.

The Leafs still have an excellent chance at getting the guy they want in Schenn at 7, in fact, I think we will get Schenn at 7 but Cowen, Kane, MSP would all be great draft choices as well. The Leafs are losing out on top end talent with the 7th overall pick.
I don't see Schenn falling past 5, I just don't. If the Leafs are high on a player like Brayden Schenn, I don't see why it's a bad thing to make a move to get him. If you get the guy you want, and it doesn't cost too much, you're making a good move.

I would love to stock up on more picks myself. Hopefully Burke does what he can to add a couple more picks to the pot for this years draft.

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05-28-2009, 03:59 PM
  #47
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I don't see Schenn falling past 5, I just don't. If the Leafs are high on a player like Brayden Schenn, I don't see why it's a bad thing to make a move to get him. If you get the guy you want, and it doesn't cost too much, you're making a good move.

I would love to stock up on more picks myself. Hopefully Burke does what he can to add a couple more picks to the pot for this years draft.
Too bad they picked up Gerber, if they had stayed with Cujo and Pogge they would be drafting 4th perhaps even 3rd. Obviously they were not looking long term with the team that hasn't made the playoffs in Four Years. Three or four more losses would have helped the team going forward much more than finishing 7th. Except for Detroit the last four teams that were playing for the Cup were Led by Players who were taken in the Top 3 of the Draft.

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05-28-2009, 04:14 PM
  #48
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They haven't in the last four years. What makes you so sure the next 2 or 3 would be drastically different?
Have you even watched an ACC game this season? Large number of seats have been empty. Even if you haven't noticed, I'm sure MLSE has. At least in the past we made the playoffs every now and then, which kept fan excitement up. The Leafs have never gone through a stretch of playoff-less hockey for this long (4 years), and the evidence shows the fans have responded. And some people here think that we NEED another 2 or 3 years of this tanking crap? I doubt Toronto will maintain its reputation for loyal fans if we go through 2 or 3 more years of no meaningful games. The pressure is on Burke and Wilson to make the playoffs next season, as it should be.

Honestly, how many of you people even live in Toronto? There is no buzz about the Leafs. Walk around downtown Toronto and bring up the Leafs- see how many people care. I doubt more than 10% will care. The Leafs are currently coasting on corporate seats and a few die hard fans. But guess what happens when the corporate folks start getting bored of their seats? We already know many of them are simply not showing up. The chances are pretty good they'll just stop buying.

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05-28-2009, 04:23 PM
  #49
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Can we shut up about the non-draft stuff yet?



No point in having interest in him as we don't have a pick high enough to select him, but I really like Elliot as a prospect. Scholastic player of the year, he had something like a 96% average! Good offensive skills, one of the better offensive D of the '09 draft. Great coach in Lorne Molleken. A lock to make Team Canada next season IMO for the 2010 WJC (played in Sasktoon, where he plays with the Blades).

Again though, I see him going late-teens/early-twenties.

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05-28-2009, 04:41 PM
  #50
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Have you even watched an ACC game this season? Large number of seats have been empty. Even if you haven't noticed, I'm sure MLSE has. At least in the past we made the playoffs every now and then, which kept fan excitement up. The Leafs have never gone through a stretch of playoff-less hockey for this long (4 years), and the evidence shows the fans have responded. And some people here think that we NEED another 2 or 3 years of this tanking crap? I doubt Toronto will maintain its reputation for loyal fans if we go through 2 or 3 more years of no meaningful games. The pressure is on Burke and Wilson to make the playoffs next season, as it should be.

Honestly, how many of you people even live in Toronto? There is no buzz about the Leafs. Walk around downtown Toronto and bring up the Leafs- see how many people care. I doubt more than 10% will care. The Leafs are currently coasting on corporate seats and a few die hard fans. But guess what happens when the corporate folks start getting bored of their seats? We already know many of them are simply not showing up. The chances are pretty good they'll just stop buying.


-The tickets were already paid for, even if somebody didn't fill the seat. If the entire season doesn't sell out in a matter of hours like it usually does to scalpers and corporations, there are plenty of real fans who will pick up the slack regardless of playoff contention. I will. I'm sure there are plenty others.

-What tanking crap? Only this previous season could be argued to have been a tank season. The previous three were exactly what you seem to be advocating we do next season, except this time we don't have Sundin or Belfour.

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