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Old
06-15-2009, 02:40 PM
  #901
NobodyBeatsTheWiz
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Originally Posted by EroCaps View Post
That's a non-playoff line-up.

It's beyond me how Caps fans have any faith in Clark or Fleischmann at this point.

Without being too morose, the Caps have several holes...and unless McPhee surprises and actually fills them in a creative manner...they aren't close to being Cup-worthy.

They have a deluded sense of themselves. They have nowhere near the team-oriented defense, discipline, and leadership structure it takes to get over the hump- and they're talking about bringing in a couple of rookies and lauding their defensive depth.
I don't see how they're not close to being Cup-worthy. They took the Cup winners to seven games, and with a few less unfortunate bounces, they would have likely been in the finals. They don't need much.

I do, however agree that the team defense, discipline, leadership, etc. needs to improve. But the coaching change and one or two players can do that.

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06-15-2009, 02:41 PM
  #902
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Originally Posted by Drake1588 View Post
The difference between Boudreau and Fleischmann is that Boudreau never had 20 goals in the NHL... so the comparison ends with goal production, where the notion that Fleischmann has not had any success is faulty.

The idea that Fleischmann is a dud is revisionist history, startling in that you only have to go back two or three months to find Fleischmann contributing nicely. Fleischmann's 19-18-37 numbers this year compare favorably to Laich's 21-16-37 points in 2007-08, after which Laich was rewarded with a nice contract.

Like it or not, Fleischmann produced well last year, and he's on the books at a bargain salary this coming year ($725,000).
You must have watched the guy play in the playoffs and the last few months of the season.

He was atrocious in all facets of the game. I mean BAD.

Even when he's on offensively (unreliable at best), he's poor in his own end and brings nothing in terms of presence.

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06-15-2009, 02:44 PM
  #903
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
I don't see how they're not close to being Cup-worthy. They took the Cup winners to seven games, and with a few less unfortunate bounces, they would have likely been in the finals. They don't need much.

I do, however agree that the team defense, discipline, leadership, etc. needs to improve. But the coaching change and one or two players can do that.
They were badly outplayed the majority of that series, after barely escaping a Rd. 1 they were favored to win.

Reason being they inexplicably failed to show-up for several games in each series, and have an average defense with below-average hockey sense.

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06-15-2009, 02:46 PM
  #904
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Originally Posted by Backstrom #19 View Post
I like that idea.

Ovechkin-Backstrom-Flash
Laich-Nylander-Semin
Bourque-Steckel-Bradley
Beagle-Gordon-Clark

Fehr will be the odd-man out because of his injury. Flash could succeed on the top line, he may not be big and strong but he does take the puck to the net.
Didn't boudreau already tried to put Flash on the 1st line with Ovie and Back's? If I remember correctly the result was horrible.

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06-15-2009, 02:46 PM
  #905
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Yeah, Flash on the 1st line....no dice.

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06-15-2009, 02:49 PM
  #906
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Originally Posted by El Maestro View Post
Didn't boudreau already tried to put Flash on the 1st line with Ovie and Back's? If I remember correctly the result was horrible.
Last year.

I remember Flash starting scoring, but the rest of that line went cold.

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Old
06-15-2009, 02:49 PM
  #907
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You know whats best about Flash; he was our insurance policy if we had an injury to one of our big guns. For his salary and very strong offensive abilities, its not that dumb to keep him around. But when a guy like Semin or Ovi gets injured in the playoffs yet we dont rest them, whats the point of keeping Flash around? I would like it if he sits upstairs and works out like a mad man until we need him. His greatest value to our team may be realized by trading him to a team that needs a second line scorer; a cheap second line goal scorer should be somewhat coveted and yield a fine return.

Bruce said it a year ago, Flash needs to add X pounds, and then add X pounds the next year, to take the next step. I think X was 10; so he kinda failed getting just an extra 6 added a summer ago. It truly does suck that he got ill and basically missed 3 months. Regardless I just see the heart missing that is needed to win playoff games. Watching him jump out of the way of shots yet trying to be a screen on the PP was comical.

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Old
06-15-2009, 02:50 PM
  #908
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
I don't see how they're not close to being Cup-worthy. They took the Cup winners to seven games, and with a few less unfortunate bounces, they would have likely been in the finals. They don't need much.

I do, however agree that the team defense, discipline, leadership, etc. needs to improve. But the coaching change and one or two players can do that.
I agree with EroCaps to a certain extent, but we need to account for individual player improvement in our projections. Players grow, improve on the deficiences in their game, and become better all-around players. Ovechkin (hopefully) will improve defensively; Semin will (hopefully) play smarter, Backstrom will improve his fitness and skating, Green will improve defensively so on and so forth. Those are things that have to happen for this team to make the next step. If they dont make that commitment, it wont matter if they bring in Pronger, they wont win a Cup. I think just through experience, maturation and player development that this team will be better next year.

That said, personnel changes are going to be necessary. If Feds leaves, a second line center is needed. I dont believe that Nylander can fill that role in this system effectively. A top line RW would be a welcome addition, although a veteran D-man should take precedence over another winger.

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06-15-2009, 02:53 PM
  #909
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Originally Posted by EroCaps View Post
That's a non-playoff line-up.
You mean a line-up that won't make the playoffs or one that doesn't play a style conducive to being successful in the playoffs? If it's the former then I'd have to disagree. If it's the later then, well, hope for upgrades at the trade deadline...if not the summer.

I actually kind of hope they have less offensive fire-power heading into the season than they've had (IOW, don't replace Fedorov and Kozlov from outside the org.). That will force them to do more with less and play a more consistently smart game. It will show us just how good of a coach we have in Boudreau and just how mature the young core is at the moment.
Quote:
It's beyond me how Caps fans have any faith in Clark or Fleischmann at this point.
You'll notice neither are in my top 6.
Quote:
They have a deluded sense of themselves. They have nowhere near the team-oriented defense, discipline, and leadership structure it takes to get over the hump- and they're talking about bringing in a couple of rookies and lauding their defensive depth.
I wouldn't read too much into what anyone in the front office says. Leonsis is just jibber-jabbering and McPhee and Boudreau aren't going to say anything that gives any sort of indication as to what their off-season plans really are. They are keeping up the front that minimal turnover is necessary and that's a perfectly conservative, expectations-lowering posture if they're unable to upgrade the roster in a significant way. But I don't believe for a second that McPhee is simply expecting the likes of Alzner and Bourque to fill what's missing.

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06-15-2009, 02:59 PM
  #910
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Originally Posted by El Maestro View Post
Didn't boudreau already tried to put Flash on the 1st line with Ovie and Back's? If I remember correctly the result was horrible.
I remember it being a failure. Regardless it obviously didnt last. Flash was invisible IIRC. In his defense, playing with Ovi its easy to be invisible, Ovi is such a puck hawk its best to just get out of the way. If Flash was scoring on our top line, Bruce would have never moved him knowing Ovi and Nick would have come around.

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06-15-2009, 03:05 PM
  #911
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Originally Posted by Drake1588 View Post
The difference between Boudreau and Fleischmann is that Boudreau never had 20 goals in the NHL... so the comparison ends with goal production, where the notion that Fleischmann has not had any success is faulty.

BB also never got more than 40-ish games in a single season in the NHL - on an aside, NHL network had a segment on BB a few months back and he, and former teammates said that he never got a fair shake at the NHL... take that for what its worth

The idea that Fleischmann is a dud is revisionist history, startling in that you only have to go back two or three months to find Fleischmann contributing nicely. Fleischmann's 19-18-37 numbers this year compare favorably to Laich's 21-16-37 points in 2007-08, after which Laich was rewarded with a nice contract.

Like it or not, Fleischmann produced well last year, and he's on the books at a bargain salary this coming year ($725,000).
others have argued the Laich / Flash comparison as faulty - just wanted to clear one thing up Drake: when i said Flash was moved to top lines / PP units without success, i meant that he did not help those units succeed, particularly the PP, ie: he did not produce when given #1 PP time. i think (and i may be wrong) that you read it as me saying "Flash had no success last season but was still moved to those top units sheerly due to BB favoritism"


as stated elsewhere in this thread, he is an ideal solution for 2nd line scoring winger, given the right set of complimentary players... unfortunately for him, we have Semin there already and no real #2 center, and we have seen Flash & Semin just don't play well together.


love his contract, and i imagine he is with us next season... but aside from scoring he does not bring much to the party. and IMO we need those X-factors to have more playoff success.


Last edited by Roccoman: 06-15-2009 at 03:10 PM.
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Old
06-15-2009, 03:05 PM
  #912
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Originally Posted by EroCaps View Post
They were badly outplayed the majority of that series, after barely escaping a Rd. 1 they were favored to win.

Reason being they inexplicably failed to show-up for several games in each series, and have an average defense with below-average hockey sense.
This isnt true. Games one and two were very even. Game three they were outplayed (Varly stood on his head to secure an overtime period), game four Varly played very poorly so it's difficult to say how the game wouldve gone if he played a stronger game. Game five was an overtime game that the Capitals played fairly well in (Steckel missed a wide open net in o.t. ), game six the Pens carried the play, and Varly made some really good saves, but the Pens threw a lot of low quality shots at the net that game (shot disparity was pretty wide, but the Caps werent that far off pace in terms of scoring chances according to my unofficial count); and game 7 Varly had another rough night allowing in a couple of very questionable goals (the second goal in particular took the crowd right out of the game.)

I'll concede games 3 and 6 (Caps win) , but every other game was either closely contested, or unwinnable because of a shaky goaltending performance by the young goalie. I believe that the Caps were outplayed and deserved to lose the series, but they werent "badly outplayed" as you put it. In fact, with just a little more offensive production from a Semin or Green, it's very possible that the Caps win the series. They didnt play very well obviously, but I wouldnt be at all surprised if they played very well next postseason ala Malkin against the Wings (not saying that either will win a Conn Smythe, but that they could very well use the dismal performances they had in that series as fuel to do well the next time they have that shot.)


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Old
06-15-2009, 03:17 PM
  #913
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I don't even necessarily love Fleischmann's game... but come on now. He scored 20 goals, even if people don't want to acknowledge it, and he is going to make $725,000 this year. Wild horses couldn't pry him away at this stage. That calculation is a cap dream. Blame the team-friendly contract. Debating whether he should or should not come back is baffling. He's going to be on the team.

Anyone really think that the GM is trading away 20 goals at that cap hit? It's simple numbers.

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Old
06-15-2009, 03:28 PM
  #914
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I don't even necessarily love Fleischmann's game... but come on now. He scored 20 goals, even if people don't want to acknowledge it, and he is going to make $725,000 this year. Wild horses couldn't pry him away at this stage. That calculation is a cap dream. Blame the team-friendly contract. Debating whether he should or should not come back is baffling. He's going to be on the team.

Anyone really think that the GM is trading away 20 goals at that cap hit? It's simple numbers.
Agreed. For the money...that's production. No matter how you slice it.

He's a good cheap second line player who adds some skill. Because outside of Backstrom, Ovy, Semin there isn't any other forward with a solid offensive skill set.

Laich's production IMHO is more a product of speed and hustle than all out offensive ability.

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06-15-2009, 03:32 PM
  #915
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Agreed. For the money...that's production. No matter how you slice it.

He's a good cheap second line player who adds some skill. Because outside of Backstrom, Ovy, Semin there isn't any other forward with a solid offensive skill set.

Laich's production IMHO is more a product of speed and hustle than all out offensive ability.
The question is, does he fit the Capitals second line though? Semin-Nylander-Flash (assuming that's how it works out) is a line with absolutely NO tenacity or grit. That's a line that wouldnt be good in transition (because of Nylander), wouldnt be good cycling the puck (because of Flash), and would be terrible in their own end (because of Nylander and Flash.)

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06-15-2009, 03:40 PM
  #916
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Originally Posted by alexthegr8 View Post
The question is, does he fit the Capitals second line though? Semin-Nylander-Flash (assuming that's how it works out) is a line with absolutely NO tenacity or grit. That's a line that wouldnt be good in transition (because of Nylander), wouldnt be good cycling the puck (because of Flash), and would be terrible in their own end (because of Nylander and Flash.)
No one seemed to have a problem with his second line play when he was paired with Semin and Fedorov.

And last time I checked, Fedorov wasn't the grittiest of forwards.

They were uptempo criss crossing puck movers who created opportunites for themselves. Nylander or not, the line will generate offense.

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06-15-2009, 03:47 PM
  #917
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No one seemed to have a problem with his second line play when he was paired with Semin and Fedorov.

And last time I checked, Fedorov wasn't the grittiest of forwards.

They were uptempo criss crossing puck movers who created opportunites for themselves. Nylander or not, the line will generate offense.
But that was a line that Feds made work. He was very responsible defensively, and Feds was still, even at his advanced age, pretty good in the transition game. Flash struggles with the cycle (too easily knocked off of the puck, and he panics when pressured along the boards), and that is pretty much all Nyls is good for at this point. Feds also made the F-F-F line go for a while.

The Nylander lead line wouldnt have anything that it could hang it's hat on. Semin will no doubt generate offense, because he's that good, but that line IMO is a train wreck waiting to happen. If Nylander must stay and play ( btw), I'd much rather see Nylander on the top line with Ovechkin, and Backstrom between Semin and Flash. Ovechkin would add his own quotient of physicality and speed, and he'd still score his points off of the rush and on the pp, and Backstrom could balance out the Semin, Flash second line.

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06-15-2009, 03:53 PM
  #918
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When did Flash Feds Semin excel? I dont even remember that line scoring a single ES goal all year. Perhaps it was in the games when Laich Steckel Bradley was together for a few playoff games. The only line i saw Flash have good chemistry with both linemates was a few games with Nylander and Fehr.

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06-15-2009, 03:58 PM
  #919
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I think another offseason of 7 or so lbs and Flash may start to grow on people. Kids got talent and at times is willing to do what's necessary by going into traffic areas. Still gets pushed around a bit especially as he wore down over the season (plus the sickness).

No way I give up on that kid now.

Just please for the love of God BB don't put him in front of net instead of Laich.

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06-15-2009, 03:59 PM
  #920
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Originally Posted by EroCaps View Post
That's a non-playoff line-up.

It's beyond me how Caps fans have any faith in Clark or Fleischmann at this point.

Without being too morose, the Caps have several holes...and unless McPhee surprises and actually fills them in a creative manner...they aren't close to being Cup-worthy.

They have a deluded sense of themselves. They have nowhere near the team-oriented defense, discipline, and leadership structure it takes to get over the hump- and they're talking about bringing in a couple of rookies and lauding their defensive depth.
There's one thing about winning in the NHL playoffs though - every man has to play above his level in all aspects of the game. That's the common thread among cup-winning teams.

Did anyone think that Pittsburgh's defense, on paper, looked like a cup-winner before the playoffs started? Fast forward and you see shades of Langway in Rob Scuderi and Miroslav freaking Satan laying his body down in front of a slapper.

I'm not arguing that the Caps don't have holes but they're not going to be the pushovers that the naysayers make them out to be. All teams have holes. Sometimes it's up to the players to elevate themselves above and beyond to address the holes.

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06-15-2009, 04:01 PM
  #921
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When did Flash Feds Semin excel? I dont even remember that line scoring a single ES goal all year. Perhaps it was in the games when Laich Steckel Bradley was together for a few playoff games. The only line i saw Flash have good chemistry with both linemates was a few games with Nylander and Fehr.
He didnt use the word excel. I certainly wouldnt call what they did "excelling," but with Gabby's incessant line juggling, I can think of a few times that they were together this season (unless Im 'misremembering' like Roger Clemens.) I know that the Flash-Feds-Fehr line was productive at one point because everyone was clamoring to keep them together.

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06-15-2009, 04:49 PM
  #922
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They were badly outplayed the majority of that series, after barely escaping a Rd. 1 they were favored to win.

Reason being they inexplicably failed to show-up for several games in each series, and have an average defense with below-average hockey sense.
I don't buy this argument at all. I thought the Pens were badly outplayed for most of the finals, but they still won.

The point is, that even with all of this team's faults, they were able to come damn close to competing for the Cup.

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06-15-2009, 05:12 PM
  #923
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Originally Posted by Drake1588 View Post
I don't even necessarily love Fleischmann's game... but come on now. He scored 20 goals, even if people don't want to acknowledge it, and he is going to make $725,000 this year. Wild horses couldn't pry him away at this stage. That calculation is a cap dream. Blame the team-friendly contract. Debating whether he should or should not come back is baffling. He's going to be on the team.

Anyone really think that the GM is trading away 20 goals at that cap hit? It's simple numbers.
He's not a 20 goal scorer.

He didn't even crack 40 pts playing on a scoring line the majority of the season for one of the Top 3 offenses in the league.

He also finished the season w/something like 4 points in 3 months, is tissue soft, and has never shown a hint of being a playoff performer. The only reason I'm glad Kozlov is gone.

They need reliability, grit and leadership.

Prime trade bait, IMO.

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06-15-2009, 05:17 PM
  #924
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When did Flash Feds Semin excel? I dont even remember that line scoring a single ES goal all year. Perhaps it was in the games when Laich Steckel Bradley was together for a few playoff games. The only line i saw Flash have good chemistry with both linemates was a few games with Nylander and Fehr.
If you want to spend the time and look at the game logs, I briefly perused through. Fleischmann early on had a some decent numbers scoring with Semin and Nylander.

He also produced some with Fedorov. But remember the guy hopped lines really frequently, be it pairing him with Nylander, or bumping up because of the early Semin injury.

Just from reviewing he seemed to excell the most with a Semin-Nylander-Flash line and a stint with Flash - Nylander - Fehr.

The bottom line is the guy is going to probably pot another 20 goals if paired with Semin regardless of the center. He's a really bargain basement 2nd line winger. He'll be fine.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/player...?playerId=2263

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06-15-2009, 05:23 PM
  #925
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Originally Posted by EroCaps View Post
He's not a 20 goal scorer.

He didn't even crack 40 pts playing on a scoring line the majority of the season for one of the Top 3 offenses in the league.

He also finished the season w/something like 4 points in 3 months, is tissue soft, and has never shown a hint of being a playoff performer. The only reason I'm glad Kozlov is gone.

They need reliability, grit and leadership.

Prime trade bait, IMO.
To be honest, the guy really was moved around alot. He seemed to be used as some type of offensive spark to help struggling offensive guys. I would say he was 50-50 between the 2nd and 3rd lines.

Semin- Feds -Laich got a decent amount of time during this past season.

The funny thing is I don't even like Flash all that much, but I am willing to recognize that he's cheap, put in 19 goals while being shuffled from line to line and is the most skilled forward behind Ovy, Backstrom and Semin.

I don't think you trade a bargain like that. You enjoy his production at a cheap price. Wait until he's an RFA see what his demands are and move him or let him get signed to an offer sheet if the cost is too prohibitive.

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