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Old
06-15-2009, 06:43 PM
  #926
itsjustsurvival
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Langway View Post

I actually kind of hope they have less offensive fire-power heading into the season than they've had (IOW, don't replace Fedorov and Kozlov from outside the org.). That will force them to do more with less and play a more consistently smart game. It will show us just how good of a coach we have in Boudreau and just how mature the young core is at the moment.
I like this idea actually. I wouldn't mind this option at all.

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Old
06-15-2009, 07:30 PM
  #927
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Originally Posted by C-A-P-S View Post
If you want to spend the time and look at the game logs, I briefly perused through. Fleischmann early on had a some decent numbers scoring with Semin and Nylander.

He also produced some with Fedorov. But remember the guy hopped lines really frequently, be it pairing him with Nylander, or bumping up because of the early Semin injury.

Just from reviewing he seemed to excell the most with a Semin-Nylander-Flash line and a stint with Flash - Nylander - Fehr.

The bottom line is the guy is going to probably pot another 20 goals if paired with Semin regardless of the center. He's a really bargain basement 2nd line winger. He'll be fine.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/player...?playerId=2263
Those are the numbers(37p) I expect from a 3rd line checker, while providing much, much more then Flash. Flash is a 4th line scorer.

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Old
06-15-2009, 08:04 PM
  #928
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Originally Posted by C-A-P-S View Post
If you want to spend the time and look at the game logs, I briefly perused through. Fleischmann early on had a some decent numbers scoring with Semin and Nylander.

He also produced some with Fedorov. But remember the guy hopped lines really frequently, be it pairing him with Nylander, or bumping up because of the early Semin injury.

Just from reviewing he seemed to excell the most with a Semin-Nylander-Flash line and a stint with Flash - Nylander - Fehr.

The bottom line is the guy is going to probably pot another 20 goals if paired with Semin regardless of the center. He's a really bargain basement 2nd line winger. He'll be fine.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/player...?playerId=2263
cool thanks for doing that leg work. I remember he did best with Nylander and then Nyls would get benched. It just seems odd to me as die hard as a fan that i am, i hardly remember him having any continuity with other linemates. Logic would tell me Bruce would keep them together if so... regardless they always seemed to fizzle out. Semin has his job already.

Certainly Bruce shuffles guys around minimizing my chances of remember where he did well. And he obviously DID well pulling off 19 goals despite all that constant shuffling; I must give credit where its due there. I just hope the Flash we saw in playoff game 1 and game 14 is the flash we have next year. It just seems there is no in between with him, if he doesnt score, he is overmatched physically then gets demoted. Then he scores a goal, gets promoted, is invisible, then gets demoted. Over and over. I have never seen a 20 goal guy all over the lines like him.

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06-15-2009, 08:04 PM
  #929
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[QUOTE=EroCaps;19927230]You must have watched the guy play in the playoffs and the last few months of the season.

He was atrocious in all facets of the game. I mean BAD.

Even when he's on offensively (unreliable at best), he's poor in his own end and brings nothing in terms of presence.[/QUOTE]

probably why detroit gave him up

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Old
06-15-2009, 09:45 PM
  #930
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Yeah, I wouldn't mind putting up an offer for Pahlsson. Some grit and some defensive responsibility.

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Old
06-15-2009, 09:49 PM
  #931
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Originally Posted by backs4mvp View Post
Those are the numbers(37p) I expect from a 3rd line checker, while providing much, much more then Flash. Flash is a 4th line scorer.
I don't think he is. If he was left on a line with a Semin all year and not bounced around I think his numbers would improve.

But he wasn't. He did tons of third line duty and was aligned a great deal of the time with Nylander (33pts) and Clark (6pts).

Not the greatest linemates in the world.

Look the guy was the 7th highest scorer on the Caps. He had more points than Fedorov and just 4 points less than Kozlov who virtually spent the entire season on the 1st line.

The guys was a decent #3 offensive option on the second line. I challenge you to find me more guys this productive at 725K dollars a year.

Bottom line, he is a bargain on the second line. He isn't my favorite player, but I do think he was a positive contributor.

I can't understand why people are complaining about barely paying a guy 700K who gave us 19 goals?

Seriously, enjoy him while he is under contract and jettision if he gets too expensive.

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Old
06-16-2009, 09:55 AM
  #932
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That Marleau thread on the trade board got me thinking....

Morrisonn, ???, ???, 1st

for

Marleau

Not sure who the ??? would be...but if it could be done without adding Carlson, Alzner, or Varlamov...I think I'd be pretty happy with it. Adding Flash or Bourque would work salary wise as well (granted the cap stays about the same).

Pipedream....but interesting.

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Old
06-16-2009, 09:59 AM
  #933
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Originally Posted by C-A-P-S View Post
I don't think he is. If he was left on a line with a Semin all year and not bounced around I think his numbers would improve.

But he wasn't. He did tons of third line duty and was aligned a great deal of the time with Nylander (33pts) and Clark (6pts).

Not the greatest linemates in the world.

Look the guy was the 7th highest scorer on the Caps. He had more points than Fedorov and just 4 points less than Kozlov who virtually spent the entire season on the 1st line.

The guys was a decent #3 offensive option on the second line. I challenge you to find me more guys this productive at 725K dollars a year.

Bottom line, he is a bargain on the second line. He isn't my favorite player, but I do think he was a positive contributor.

I can't understand why people are complaining about barely paying a guy 700K who gave us 19 goals?

Seriously, enjoy him while he is under contract and jettision if he gets too expensive.
He's definitely a bargain, but the mere fact that he's a bargain doesn't make him a 2nd liner. Nobody is advocating waiving the guy at this point. But the fact remains that Flash is a brutally inconsistent player who goes weeks on end without making any offensive impact. He's also chronically weak on the puck and, in part because of this, is a significantly lesser player in the playoffs than he is in the regular season.

As the third best guy on the 2nd line, and with our power play, you can live with Flash. But he doesn't play a style that compliments our 1st line, and right now he's either the 2nd best player on our 2nd line with a vacancy at #1RW or he's the best guy on our 2nd line, with SOB up top. That's a big, big problem that needs to be addressed by getting creative one way or another. Unfortunately, I doubt that will happen.

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Old
06-16-2009, 10:01 AM
  #934
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Offhand, the ??? and the ??? in a trade for Marleau would be pieces that would hurt to lose. Not dead weight, marginal or peripheral talent that just about everyone would be able to live with easily enough. The ??? isn't Fleischmann or Fehr.

It would probably still make sense to pull the trigger under many scenarios, but the pieces going back? They would be quality pieces.

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Old
06-16-2009, 10:01 AM
  #935
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strungout View Post
That Marleau thread on the trade board got me thinking....

Morrisonn, ???, ???, 1st

for

Marleau

Not sure who the ??? would be...but if it could be done without adding Carlson, Alzner, or Varlamov...I think I'd be pretty happy with it. Adding Flash or Bourque would work salary wise as well (granted the cap stays about the same).

Pipedream....but interesting.
Why not Neuvirth and Lepisto?

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Old
06-16-2009, 10:01 AM
  #936
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Ah ****....it doesn't fit...well...it would...if Theodore was bought out.


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Old
06-16-2009, 10:01 AM
  #937
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Yuck no it wouldn't be enough.

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Old
06-16-2009, 10:11 AM
  #938
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I'm not sure the Sharks really pay attention unless the player Washington dangles is Semin.

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Old
06-16-2009, 10:11 AM
  #939
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strungout View Post
That Marleau thread on the trade board got me thinking....

Morrisonn, ???, ???, 1st

for

Marleau

Not sure who the ??? would be...but if it could be done without adding Carlson, Alzner, or Varlamov...I think I'd be pretty happy with it. Adding Flash or Bourque would work salary wise as well (granted the cap stays about the same).

Pipedream....but interesting.
Marleau would be a great fit on our 2nd line, but his cap hit is just way too big, IMO. And I can't imagine we could land him without giving up a key roster player or a major prospect.

If we're looking to make a trade for a forward with one year left on his contract, I still think Hejduk is the guy to look at. Solid producer even on a bad team, and a cap hit under $4m who players for an organization that will consider eating shortterm salary and is looking for picks and prospects in return. A guy like Hejduk allows us to maintain a semblance of balance on the 2nd line if we go the SOB route, or could be added to the top line RW slot. He's also got Cup experience, which is nice.

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Old
06-16-2009, 10:46 AM
  #940
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I hate this spec stuff and I'd hate to draw attention to that trade post but....

post-draft extend Marleau + Chooo chooo (with GMGM having side agreement with Nyls in KHL once he can be waived)

for

Mo, Gus, Fehr/Flash (or maybe they'd take Clark... dreaming I know), 2010 1st, + cap space for UFA


edit: blah I can't make the cap work on our side for the Semin/Backstrom extenstions

edit2: I'm not even sure how this would help SJs need for playoff performers. Maybe has to be part of a multi-team deal to include us.

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Old
06-16-2009, 11:24 AM
  #941
Drake1588
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The Sharks aren't going to be looking to rebuild, but instead to retool, to change the team culture and make another run at a Cup. So why are trade packages for Marleau from the Caps based around prospects and very young players?

Keep San Jose's needs in mind. Picks, prospects... futures, in other words, have little value for San Jose right now.

The Sharks are going to want Quality for Quality deals.

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Old
06-16-2009, 01:00 PM
  #942
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Originally Posted by El Maestro View Post
Why not Neuvirth and Lepisto?
Trying to dump Neuvy is just an insane idea that people need to get out of their head right now. Yes, Varly looked great, but that was for 10 games. There needs to be more time for both of them to learn and adapt to NHL before any final say should be made. I love Sami (That's all the hockey jerseys I own) but he honestly doesn't have much of a value at the NHL level as of now.

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Old
06-16-2009, 01:13 PM
  #943
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Originally Posted by Drake1588 View Post
The Sharks aren't going to be looking to rebuild, but instead to retool, to change the team culture and make another run at a Cup. So why are trade packages for Marleau from the Caps based around prospects and very young players?

Keep San Jose's needs in mind. Picks, prospects... futures, in other words, have little value for San Jose right now.

The Sharks are going to want Quality for Quality deals.
My take is that cap space helps most teams when shopping for impact players. Marleau's value is hurt in regards to return by his one year remaining contract and by his underproducing history in the clutch/playoffs.

I see a trade involving Fleischmann for Marleau as value both ways. SJ gets a 3rd member of a 1st or 2nd line and 20 goal capability at a 4th liner price and with it salary cap space to make other things happen.

For me Marleau is not the player I want to see replacing Fedorov. The Caps still need playoff experience and veteran role models. Trading for a primary member of the Sharks adds to the Caps regular season team image and does not build the Caps playoff resume.

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Old
06-16-2009, 01:19 PM
  #944
Drake1588
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
My take is that cap space helps most teams when shopping for impact players. Marleau's value is hurt in regards to return by his one year remaining contract and by his underproducing history in the clutch/playoffs.

I see a trade involving Fleischmann for Marleau as value both ways. SJ gets a 3rd member of a 1st or 2nd line and 20 goal capability at a 4th liner price and with it salary cap space to make other things happen.

For me Marleau is not the player I want to see replacing Fedorov. The Caps still need playoff experience and veteran role models. Trading for a primary member of the Sharks adds to the Caps regular season team image and does not build the Caps playoff resume.
I love Patrick Marleau, but there are elements in what you say with which I agree. I love Marleau, but he may not be the answer for this particular team in this situation, and the salary is almost impossible to fit.

You could make a case that Bill Guerin is a better fit for what this team needs to acquire this summer, even if he will be less productive than Marleau over the regular season.

I will say that someday Marleau will go to a team that already has a defined leadership cadre, and he's going to be lights out.

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Old
06-16-2009, 01:35 PM
  #945
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Originally Posted by Drake1588 View Post
I love Patrick Marleau, but there are elements in what you say with which I agree. I love Marleau, but he may not be the answer for this particular team in this situation, and the salary is almost impossible to fit.

You could make a case that Bill Guerin is a better fit for what this team needs to acquire this summer, even if he will be less productive than Marleau over the regular season.

I will say that someday Marleau will go to a team that already has a defined leadership cadre, and he's going to be lights out.
I just don't see it. The guy has been on a team with a TON of veteran leaders. Not like he's shouldering the load alone and is in over his head.

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Old
06-16-2009, 01:38 PM
  #946
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txpd View Post
My take is that cap space helps most teams when shopping for impact players. Marleau's value is hurt in regards to return by his one year remaining contract and by his underproducing history in the clutch/playoffs.

I see a trade involving Fleischmann for Marleau as value both ways. SJ gets a 3rd member of a 1st or 2nd line and 20 goal capability at a 4th liner price and with it salary cap space to make other things happen.

For me Marleau is not the player I want to see replacing Fedorov. The Caps still need playoff experience and veteran role models. Trading for a primary member of the Sharks adds to the Caps regular season team image and does not build the Caps playoff resume.
But why do we want to be on the salary-eating end of this kind of trade? The cap-based logic you have laid out for why SJ would do this type of deal is pretty much exactly the basis for my various proposals to trade Semin for an impact player and a ton of cap space.

Targeting specific players is fine and good, but how do we benefit from trading one top-6-ish player and a bunch of spare parts/picks/prospects for one top-6 player? So now, instead of having 16 players (including 4 top-6 caliber forwards) signed with $45.7m in cap commitments, we would have 16 players (including 4 top-6 caliber forwards) signed with $51.3m in cap commitments. Granted, Marleau is far better than Flash, but we've essentially foreclosed every single other option to improve the team. We will have made no changes on defense and we will have done nothing to address our lack of a #1 RW, or a second 2nd line wing to play with Marleau and Semin. All we've done is take a roster top-heavy at forward and made it more top-heavy at forward.


A roster with Marleau in place of Flash, all our RFAs resigned (Gordo, Bourque, Fehr, Juice, Sarge), and no other improvements will put us somewhere between $0.5 and $0.75m from the cap, even if we assume the cap stays at $56.4m.

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Old
06-16-2009, 01:41 PM
  #947
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Originally Posted by CapitalsCup2010 View Post
I just don't see it. The guy has been on a team with a TON of veteran leaders. Not like he's shouldering the load alone and is in over his head.
Well, yes and no. They have veterans now, certainly.

I'm not sure the Sharks have had a really good playoff catalyst and leader or set of leaders since Owen Nolan, to be honest. That is, what... 2003? Thornton certainly isn't a favorite of mine, even when he's Hart-worthy, not when the playoffs start.

In many ways, the Sharks were more dangerous in the playoffs when they were less talented, in the late 90s and early in this decade.

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Old
06-16-2009, 04:58 PM
  #948
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Can't remember who originally brought it up, but I'm liking the idea of pursuing Owen Nolan more and more.

Minnesota could definitely be a team looking to re-tool a bit, with the (likely) loss of Gaborik. They've got 5 defensemen under contract for next season, so they could potentially use another (Mo?). They also have relatively little young talent (the worst prospect pool in the league, according to HF), so one would think they'd be interested in prospects/picks as well.

Nolan is signed for $2.75 M next season and while he wouldn't help much in the speed department, he'd provide solid leadership, toughness, and decent playoff experience. Basically, he'd be Knuble with more snarl. He'd also command the respect of #8, who cited Nolan as his favorite NHL player as a kid.

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Old
06-16-2009, 05:06 PM
  #949
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
Can't remember who originally brought it up, but I'm liking the idea of pursuing Owen Nolan more and more.

Minnesota could definitely be a team looking to re-tool a bit, with the (likely) loss of Gaborik. They've got 5 defensemen under contract for next season, so they could potentially use another (Mo?). They also have relatively little young talent (the worst prospect pool in the league, according to HF), so one would think they'd be interested in prospects/picks as well.

Nolan is signed for $2.75 M next season and while he wouldn't help much in the speed department, he'd provide solid leadership, toughness, and decent playoff experience. Basically, he'd be Knuble with more snarl. He'd also command the respect of #8, who cited Nolan as his favorite NHL player as a kid.
The only problem there is that the Wild have no scoring whatsoever, and losing Nolan doesn't help them in that department. Flipping a forward for him might work, but we don't have anybody proven that we could give up for him, at best it would be Flash or Fehr.

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Old
06-16-2009, 05:12 PM
  #950
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The only problem there is that the Wild have no scoring whatsoever, and losing Nolan doesn't help them in that department. Flipping a forward for him might work, but we don't have anybody proven that we could give up for him, at best it would be Flash or Fehr.
That's a very good point. I suppose it depends on what direction the Wild want to go next year. I don't think they're a very solid playoff team as presently constructed. Maybe they'd wouldn't mind trading one year of Nolan for 4+ years of a Flash or Fehr? Obviously I'm not aware of their intentions, just throwing it back out there.

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