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Old
05-29-2009, 08:14 AM
  #1
KimiFerrari
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Carter Offersheet

I am wondering when the time comes, how many firsts would we get if someone signed him to an offer sheet?

And would you be upset if Philly let him go?

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05-29-2009, 08:18 AM
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1st round picks sound all nice and dandy, but those players aren't ready to contribute right away.

Also, guys like Carter who are capable of scoring 40-50 goals...simply don't grow on trees.

I'd like to see him stay, he's a solid center and still maturing and progressing. He's also our only center with decent size.

Conclusion: I'd be pissed to see him go.

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05-29-2009, 08:24 AM
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Carter will be arbitration eligible when he's done with this contract.

He will not be receiving an offer sheet.

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05-29-2009, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Carter will be arbitration eligible when he's done with this contract.

He will not be receiving an offer sheet.
This.

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05-29-2009, 08:36 AM
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Carter will be arbitration eligible when he's done with this contract.

He will not be receiving an offer sheet.

Ohhhh alright well that put that thought out......

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05-29-2009, 08:41 AM
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Ohhhh alright well that put that thought out......
You can ask the question of Giroux if you want, as I think there is legitimate concern on that front.

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05-29-2009, 08:46 AM
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You can ask the question of Giroux if you want, as I think there is legitimate concern on that front.
No chance.

Giroux replaces Gagne.

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05-29-2009, 08:53 AM
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No chance.

Giroux replaces Gagne.
A guy currently playing center replaces (a still young) first line wing that plays excellent defense? Not to mention, Giroux has played RW and Gagne playes LW...

Moreover, there is a very real chance that if this situation plays out Gagne will be cheaper than Giroux with a lowered salary cap.

Lets say Giroux goes out and puts up a PPG over the next two seasons. Jeff Carter will also be a RFA, and lets assume he pops for 40 goals a year over the next two seasons. Gagne, on the other hand, averages 30-35 goals and puts up stellar defense. He's heading out of his prime, has a bit of an injury history, and a ton of history with the franchise...all of which might lead to him agreeing to a very manageable conctract hit.

If you're a team out there with cap space and you have a offer sheet target like Giroux -- coming off of two PPG campaigns on 2.5 years in the NHL -- what would you offer to get him?

The fact is that Giroux looked significantly better than either Richards or Carter as a rookie. So sure Giroux replaces Gagne? More importantly, so sure we'll even be able to afford Giroux?

I'm not.

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05-29-2009, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
A guy currently playing center replaces (a still young) first line wing that plays excellent defense? Not to mention, Giroux has played RW and Gagne playes LW...

Moreover, there is a very real chance that if this situation plays out Gagne will be cheaper than Giroux with a lowered salary cap.

Lets say Giroux goes out and puts up a PPG over the next two seasons. Jeff Carter will also be a RFA, and lets assume he pops for 40 goals a year over the next two seasons. Gagne, on the other hand, averages 30-35 goals and puts up stellar defense. He's heading out of his prime, has a bit of an injury history, and a ton of history with the franchise...all of which might lead to him agreeing to a very manageable conctract hit.

If you're a team out there with cap space and you have a offer sheet target like Giroux -- coming off of two PPG campaigns on 2.5 years in the NHL -- what would you offer to get him?

So sure Giroux replaces Gagne? More importantly, so sure we'll even be able to afford Giroux?

I'm not.
Contract wise, yes.

There is no chance that the Flyers let Giroux walk. While I love Gagne, he's potentially one good hit away from hanging them up. Sure, most players are one good hit away from a career altering injury, but Gagne has a history.

I can't see for the life of me, that the Flyers extend Gagne without locking up Giroux. No chance.

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05-29-2009, 08:57 AM
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The fact is that Giroux looked significantly better than either Richards or Carter as a rookie. So sure Giroux replaces Gagne? More importantly, so sure we'll even be able to afford Giroux?

I'm not.
Agreed, but we have a some time to worry about it at least. I'm sure they will lock Giroux up long term in same way they locked up the other two.

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05-29-2009, 08:58 AM
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Contract wise, yes.

There is no chance that the Flyers let Giroux walk. While I love Gagne, he's potentially one good hit away from hanging them up. Sure, most players are one good hit away from a career altering injury, but Gagne has a history.

I can't see for the life of me, that the Flyers extend Gagne without locking up Giroux. No chance.
I tend to agree with you here. If Giroux pans out, I see them keeping him. I could see them trading or losing JVR if he pans out also.

Wow, so many talented forwards, we are lucky in that regard. I wish we could get a decent fracking goalie though.

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05-29-2009, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Opus View Post
Contract wise, yes.

There is no chance that the Flyers let Giroux walk. While I love Gagne, he's potentially one good hit away from hanging them up. Sure, most players are one good hit away from a career altering injury, but Gagne has a history.

I can't see for the life of me, that the Flyers extend Gagne without locking up Giroux. No chance.
You're missing the point. We may very well not be ABLE to lockup Giroux. If you want to lock up Giroux in two years, there's a very real chance you're not going to just be talking about letting Gagne walk...you're going to be talking about letting Carter or Coburn go as well.

If he doesn't follow through on the production promise he displayed this year that may change, but as of right now Giroux looks like a guy who may be earning 6M on his next contract...a year following Coburn getting a raise, and the same year that Carter is going to receive a raise.

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Agreed, but we have a some time to worry about it at least. I'm sure they will lock Giroux up long term in same way they locked up the other two.
I'm sure they will try to...I'm not sure they will be able to. Especially if the cap drops over the next two years. If it gets to open market then all bets are off.

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05-29-2009, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
You're missing the point. We may very well not be ABLE to lockup Giroux. If you want to lock up Giroux in two years, there's a very real chance you're not going to just be talking about letting Gagne walk...you're going to be talking about letting Carter or Coburn go as well.

If he doesn't follow through on the production promise he displayed this year that may change, but as of right now Giroux looks like a guy who may be earning 6M on his next contract...a year following Coburn getting a raise, and the same year that Carter is going to receive a raise.
I think it's in the Flyers best interest to lock up Giroux ASAP. Like you said, he runs the risk of putting up some serious points and the price tag could jeopardize other players on the current roster.

The nice thing about Giroux, he can play both up the middle and on the wing. Something Carter doesn't do, unless I'm mistaken.

It would be sad to see Gagne go, he's been a wonderful player for the Flyers, but if it comes to down to him or Giroux...IMO, it's a no brainer.

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05-29-2009, 09:06 AM
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I think it's in the Flyers best interest to lock up Giroux ASAP. Like you said, he runs the risk of putting up some serious points and the price tag could jeopardize other players on the current roster.
Well, they can't even talk about locking him up until after this season.

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The nice thing about Giroux, he can play both up the middle and on the wing. Something Carter doesn't do, unless I'm mistaken.
Carter could play wing if they ever let him play there long enough to get comfortable. He even said the last time they were talking about it that he was fine with it, but they needed to make the switch and stick with it...rather than bouncing him back and forth.

At this point, Carter has come along far enough defensively that I wouldn't want him to be moved to wing. Whether Giroux can compete defensively against the bigger centers is something that concerns me.

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It would be sad to see Gagne go, he's been a wonderful player for the Flyers, but if it comes to down to him or Giroux...IMO, it's a no brainer.
It's not a no brainer when you factor in the salary cap. To a lesser degree this is the same line of thinking that got them into this mess with Lupul and his contract. Yes, Giroux looks like he's going to be an immensely talented player...but you can't chase every shiny object you see -- as Holmgren hopefully learned this year. They need to be very careful in how they handle all of these players in the next couple of years.

I would not be comfortable signing Gagne to another big, long contract...but I also wouldn't be shocked if he was willing to take a smaller deal at this point to stick around.

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05-29-2009, 09:12 AM
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Well, they can't even talk about locking him up until after this season.



Carter could play wing if they ever let him play there long enough to get comfortable. He even said the last time they were talking about it that he was fine with it, but they needed to make the switch and stick with it...rather than bouncing him back and forth.

At this point, Carter has come along far enough defensively that I wouldn't want him to be moved to wing. Whether Giroux can compete defensively against the bigger centers is something that concerns me.



It's not a no brainer when you factor in the salary cap. To a lesser degree this is the same line of thinking that got them into this mess with Lupul and his contract. Yes, Giroux looks like he's going to be an immensely talented player...but you can't chase every shiny object you see -- as Holmgren hopefully learned this year. They need to be very careful in how they handle all of these players in the next couple of years.

I would not be comfortable signing Gagne to another big, long contract...but I also wouldn't be shocked if he was willing to take a smaller deal at this point to stick around.
Correct, the good old salary cap...the handcuffs that come with it. That's where the issue is, we have a cluster**** of forwards, and we simply won't be able to keep them all. That's just a reality of the 'new' NHL.

With Richards and Briere both locked up for forever and a day, I guess that maybe Carter could potentially be the casualty. I know I'll get flamed, but I really 'hope' that Briere doesn't finish his contract with the Flyers. Perhaps if Biron is done in Philly, this might be an easier task than originally thought.

*dreams*

Biron signs in Colorado and we can send Briere there too. They have a void at center, lack talent and have a pantload of cap room to accomodate Briere and his ridiculous contract.

*wakes up*

I see what you're saying, but I have a really hard time believing that the Flyers would let a guy like Giroux walk.

Words can't describe how pissed off that would make me.

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05-29-2009, 09:16 AM
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Correct, the good old salary cap...the handcuffs that come with it. That's where the issue is, we have a cluster**** of forwards, and we simply won't be able to keep them all. That's just a reality of the 'new' NHL.

With Richards and Briere both locked up for forever and a day, I guess that maybe Carter could potentially be the casualty. I know I'll get flamed, but I really 'hope' that Briere doesn't finish his contract with the Flyers. Perhaps if Biron is done in Philly, this might be an easier task than originally thought.

*dreams*

Biron signs in Colorado and we can send Briere there too. They have a void at center, lack talent and have a pantload of cap room to accomodate Briere and his ridiculous contract.

*wakes up*

I see what you're saying, but I have a really hard time believing that the Flyers would let a guy like Giroux walk.

Words can't describe how pissed off that would make me.
In an ideal world, Briere is gone this summer...then we can keep all of these guys with relative ease. We're clearly a better team with Gagne, Carter, and Giroux than with making a choice amongst them.

My concern is that the choice is more between Carter and Giroux than it is between Gagne and Giroux. You can certainly get money out of Gagne, but if Carter puts up 40+ goals the next two seasons, then he's in line for a huge contract. If Giroux puts up PPG pace over the next two seasons he will potentially be in line for a huge contract.

Gagne...yeah, I'd let him walk if the salaries in question are equal. I don't think they will be, which is why I don't think it's a no brainer.

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05-29-2009, 09:19 AM
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Well, they can't even talk about locking him up until after this season.

Carter could play wing if they ever let him play there long enough to get comfortable. He even said the last time they were talking about it that he was fine with it, but they needed to make the switch and stick with it...rather than bouncing him back and forth.

At this point, Carter has come along far enough defensively that I wouldn't want him to be moved to wing. Whether Giroux can compete defensively against the bigger centers is something that concerns me.

It's not a no brainer when you factor in the salary cap. To a lesser degree this is the same line of thinking that got them into this mess with Lupul and his contract. Yes, Giroux looks like he's going to be an immensely talented player...but you can't chase every shiny object you see -- as Holmgren hopefully learned this year. They need to be very careful in how they handle all of these players in the next couple of years.

I would not be comfortable signing Gagne to another big, long contract...but I also wouldn't be shocked if he was willing to take a smaller deal at this point to stick around.
You know very well if it comes down to it, and Giroux is the best player on the Flyers, we shouldn't hesitate to buy out Briere after 2 years.

The buyout would hardly effect us. I've done the math.

The fact remains that for each post you put up about how the Flyers are going to lose Giroux you start a meaningless panic among those who don't know better.

If Giroux does indeed become the best player on this team, drastic measures will be taken to keep him here because if he's the top player on this team...well you do the math...Carter and Richards were top 15 in PPG this season. They're both defensively sound, and Richards looks like he could be a Selke trophy finalist for the next decade. Now if Giroux is somehow better than that or even close to that...the last things on your mind are the ramifications of losing other players by keeping him.

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05-29-2009, 09:24 AM
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In an ideal world, Briere is gone this summer...then we can keep all of these guys with relative ease. We're clearly a better team with Gagne, Carter, and Giroux than with making a choice amongst them.

My concern is that the choice is more between Carter and Giroux than it is between Gagne and Giroux. You can certainly get money out of Gagne, but if Carter puts up 40+ goals the next two seasons, then he's in line for a huge contract. If Giroux puts up PPG pace over the next two seasons he will potentially be in line for a huge contract.

Gagne...yeah, I'd let him walk if the salaries in question are equal. I don't think they will be, which is why I don't think it's a no brainer.
If only, if only. You never know, stranger things have happened. At this point, with the talent we have that will need to be resigned...I could (and maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part) see Holmgren letting Briere for a bargain and a half. For the simple reason of just that, it would allow us to keep the core of young players we have.

I know some here will ramble on that he's a PPG player, and that's fine, but he's not needed. He's nice to have, but in a cap world, with the younger player we have...he's a burden.

Perhaps if Briere can't be moved, than it's likely that Carter is the casualty. It would be extremely difficult to lose a 40-50 goal scorer, but he would command quite the return.

I guess at the end of the day, it's a good problem to have.

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05-29-2009, 09:27 AM
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You know very well if it comes down to it, and Giroux is the best player on the Flyers, we shouldn't hesitate to buy out Briere after 2 years.

The buyout would hardly effect us. I've done the math.
There's still two years at 7M left on Briere's contract before it goes down to 3M and 2M...that's going to be a non-trivial cap hit there.

And as much as I like Giroux's potential, as of right now I'd be surprised if he was our "best player."

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The fact remains that for each post you put up about how the Flyers are going to lose Giroux you start a meaningless panic among those who don't know better.
Who is panicing? Please find one post. This is the long-term thinking that has been sorely lacking with the Flyers. It's the long-term thinking that makes the salary cap interesting...and it's the long-term thinking that should be the water cooler talk when the season is over and decisions need to be made.

Sometimes the bad news is good to digest with the kool-aid. Like when I was blasting Holmgren last summer and following the Carle trade and it came back to bite us in the ass at the trade deadline.

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If Giroux does indeed become the best player on this team, drastic measures will be taken to keep him here because if he's the top player on this team...well you do the math...Carter and Richards were top 15 in PPG this season. They're both defensively sound, and Richards looks like he could be a Selke trophy finalist for the next decade. Now if Giroux is somehow better than that or even close to that...the last things on your mind are the ramifications of losing other players by keeping him.
But it isn't about one player. It's about a team. If signing Giroux means losing other parts that affect the whole to the point it's a negative, then you let him walk and get back something for him that will help fill the hole.

That's what being a GM is under the salary cap. It's making hard decisions that make the team better, not just hoarding shiny objects...something Holmgren has been guilty of: ref. Lupul, Joffrey.

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05-29-2009, 09:30 AM
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Ok well let me tackle this again.

Lets say Grioux where to become a PPG player somewhere on the level of Carter. How many firsts would we get if he where signed on a offer sheet?

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05-29-2009, 09:30 AM
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If only, if only. You never know, stranger things have happened. At this point, with the talent we have that will need to be resigned...I could (and maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part) see Holmgren letting Briere for a bargain and a half. For the simple reason of just that, it would allow us to keep the core of young players we have.
The thing to follow here is the movement (led by Burke and Holland) to allow teams to take on some salary when they trade a player away. So, for example, the Flyers could agree to pay 2M a year of Briere's contract -- assuming he waived his NTC -- which would be nice for the other team, and save us 4.5M.

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I know some here will ramble on that he's a PPG player, and that's fine, but he's not needed. He's nice to have, but in a cap world, with the younger player we have...he's a burden.
No argument here. Especially if he's playing a non-premium wing position.

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Perhaps if Briere can't be moved, than it's likely that Carter is the casualty. It would be extremely difficult to lose a 40-50 goal scorer, but he would command quite the return.
I would keep Carter. I think he's shown tremendous improvement defensively and expect that to continue the next couple of years and believe finding pure scoring ability like his is harder to find in this league than playmaking skill.

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I guess at the end of the day, it's a good problem to have.
It's a very good problem to have.

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05-29-2009, 09:32 AM
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Ok well let me tackle this again.

Lets say Grioux where to become a PPG player somewhere on the level of Carter. How many firsts would we get if he where signed on a offer sheet?
Unfortunately, no one can answer that question.

1) It depends on the salary cap two years out.

2) It depends on what teams are capable of offering him -- you need to have the cap space and picks to make a big offer.

I would expect multiple firsts if he's coming off back-to-back PPG campaigns.

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05-29-2009, 09:41 AM
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The thing to follow here is the movement (led by Burke and Holland) to allow teams to take on some salary when they trade a player away. So, for example, the Flyers could agree to pay 2M a year of Briere's contract -- assuming he waived his NTC -- which would be nice for the other team, and save us 4.5M.
And that's what gives me hope. Faint hope, but hope none the less.

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I would keep Carter. I think he's shown tremendous improvement defensively and expect that to continue the next couple of years and believe finding pure scoring ability like his is harder to find in this league than playmaking skill.
I 'think' I would too. As I mentioned in the other thread this morning, 40-50 goal scorers simply don't grow on trees. And he gives us size and is rounding out very nicely as a two-way player.

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It's a very good problem to have.
It could be a **** of a lot worse, that's for sure.

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05-29-2009, 09:44 AM
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I think we are assuming way too much here with Giroux.

It's called a "sophomore slump" and lots and lots of players have suffered it. Richards, Carter, Coburn, and Carle are all current Flyers who had serious problems after their rookie seasons.

I think it's a stretch to say that Giroux is going to be a PPG player next season.

I think it would be good if the Flyers showed some urgency and treated the next 2 years as a very strong window to win the Cup. They're going to have an extremely talented roster and after 2 years, they could lose Giroux and Kimmo may well start hitting the downside of his career.

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05-29-2009, 09:53 AM
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I think we are assuming way too much here with Giroux.

It's called a "sophomore slump" and lots and lots of players have suffered it. Richards, Carter, Coburn, and Carle are all current Flyers who had serious problems after their rookie seasons.

I think it's a stretch to say that Giroux is going to be a PPG player next season.

I think it would be good if the Flyers showed some urgency and treated the next 2 years as a very strong window to win the Cup. They're going to have an extremely talented roster and after 2 years, they could lose Giroux and Kimmo may well start hitting the downside of his career.
Richards: 0.43ppg, .54ppg, 1.03ppg, 1.01ppg
Carter: .51ppg, 0.60ppg, 0.64ppg, 1.02ppg

Sophomore slump? Both improved on craptastic team.

If Carle experienced a sophomore slump...what was this season?

As for Coburn...I'm not sure I'd call this year a sophomore slump. He wasn't getting covered by Timonen, or getting helped out offensively by Timonen...and our entire defense struggled to get points this season. He was trying to do far too much in the first half of the season, but I think he was a better player at the end of the season than we saw last year.

And it's absolutely projecting the best for Giroux...because that's worst case scenario as far as the salary cap, which is what you have to plan for. If Giroux goes out and puts up two 40 pt campaigns, then the problem is mostly solved.


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