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Old
05-30-2009, 11:47 AM
  #26
kimzey59
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Originally Posted by Silent Shout View Post
I would make this deal though the salary might be a problem. We definitely lack transition from the defenseman. I don't think you can rely on basically two rookies in Johnson and Pietrangelo to fix it. Who knows what will happen with Brewer. If things look good, maybe buyout McKee.

Kaberle/Johnson
Jackman/Brewer
McKee/Pietrangelo

Ian Cole isn't going anywhere (most likely). He's our McKee replacement for next year.
1) Exactly where has Colaiacovo disappeared to?

2) EJ was the best player on the team at the end of his rookie year; bar none.
He is in no way "essentially a rookie". At worst he's our #5 D man at the moment; and that's if Brewer is healthy and you accept Jackman, Polak and Colaiacovo as legit top 4 guys, which not everybody does.

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Old
05-30-2009, 12:31 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
He had a pretty reasonable post. What you said will be popular around here, but that doesn't make it true.

Anyways, the proposal is a bit hard to value. Sonne is obviously breaking out to some degree, but I'm suspicious about anybody breaking out as an overage player in the WHL. The 16th is a good pick, but I'd want a different prospect coming back, or failing that, a young roster player added.

A prospect like McRae, Allen or Cole would be who I'd want with the first if its just a first and prospect.
He isn't overaged. People need to get that thought out of their head (shoot, I have even seen Blues fans make the same statement). He turned 20 in May of this year. (Hence being able to play for the U20 team in Canada).

He is a very good player. This wasn't a break out season for him. Take a look at the 1st part of 07 - prior to his injury, the kid was on fire. He only played 29 games as an 18 year old. I expect him to turn out like Craig Conroy. He played a D role, grinder at the U20, but was a big part of the hitman's offense.

As for the trade, I would consider it. But I don't think we have the cap room (team cap not salary) to do it.

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05-30-2009, 12:34 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by kimzey59 View Post
1) Exactly where has Colaiacovo disappeared to?

2) EJ was the best player on the team at the end of his rookie year; bar none.
He is in no way "essentially a rookie". At worst he's our #5 D man at the moment; and that's if Brewer is healthy and you accept Jackman, Polak and Colaiacovo as legit top 4 guys, which not everybody does.

Bah! I forgot Cola and Polak...was busy day at work. I would guess we'd have to move a Dman with this deal or in a seperate one and buyout McKee.

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Old
05-30-2009, 12:35 PM
  #29
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There's no way you're getting Cole and a 1st for two years of Kaberle. If the Blues are stepping up in that ballpark of cost adding a bit going for Pronger is a drastically better option. Waiting a year not trading any assets and signing Pronger is even better than that.

This is regardless of the fact that if we're dealing for Kaberle a d-man not named EJ, Pie or Polak is going back to Toronto.
Chris Pronger will be 35 years old in October. How many years of Pronger would the Blues have when trading assets for him? Better yet, to sign Pronger without trading any assets would equate to at least $6.25 million in cap hit. That is an extra $2 million for Chris Pronger over Kaberle. Realistically, is Pronger worth at least $2 million + to re-sign for maybe two to three years more of Pronger, over Kaberle for two years?

John Davidson has to be wise with cap management and ownership would most likely love to pay lesser dollar amounts to players that can produce on the blue line. Everyone understands that Pronger brings more intangibles than just puck moving skills, but at the end of the day it all comes down to the defence moving the puck up to the forwards in an efficient and error free fashion. This is something that Tomas Kaberle provides with ease at a much less cap hit, and could still be re-signed later on for a slight increase if necessary.

The Blues are stacked with young talent and the Los Angeles Kings General Manager Dean Lombardi even realizes an NHL team cannot build up their team with youth forever. It has been since 2002 when the Kings last made the playoffs and now it's time for Lombardi to bring in more veteran help to make the next level, as John Davidson would do well to take the same action.

To get the best trading asset the Leafs own, it will cost something more than a first round pick, as there are no guarantees with drafted players. This is why a prospect or young roster player would be useful for the Leafs to pull the trigger on any deal for one of the better puck moving defenseman in the NHL (on a sweetheart deal).

The only decent puck moving defenseman in the free agency pool is Jay Bouwmeester, a player that will command high dollar value to any team this year. After Jay Bouwmeester is potentially signed by another team, what does St. Louis have an option on the free agency market? The only option for the Blues is to trade for a puck moving defenseman, and quite frankly not a lot of teams are willing to part with their defenseman.

For any team wanting a good puck moving defenseman, Tomas Kaberle is the best option out there for all teams to consider given the circumstances with the Leafs and the cap hit Kaberle brings to the team trading for him.

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Old
05-30-2009, 12:52 PM
  #30
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This is what I get from this thread:

Some Leafs fans believe Kaberle >>>>> GOD. Good luck with that.

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Old
05-30-2009, 01:12 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by 666 View Post
a-b) Kaberle's trade value will not get any higher. Those quality 7 years will be lower quality for sure. Simple fact is the only thing anyone is guaranteed is that he will be around for 2 more years. That's it.

c) he has already been replaced by Schenn or Stralman (in the future) because the Leafs don't need him to miss the playoffs again while others can use him now.

e) as said before, 2 years from now Kabs could be gone for nothing and will most probably be on the downswing of his career.

In summary, the Leafs don't need Kabs next year. Others do. You can have your choice of Kabs for 2 more probably not very successful years. Or a very strong pick and a hopefully a pretty strong prospect for 7 years or so. Simple choice for me.
a) I do think his value can get higher. This guy had a bad season where he was injured. And, everyone except you, seems to think his value has dropped a little bit this year. If he scores say, 50+ pts next year, his value will be higher with that steal of a conctract.

c) Him and Schenn are north pole and south pole. One is a shutdown d-man, and the other is a puck mover, and PP QB who is one of the best at this. The leafs powerplay and even offence will take a huge step back when Kaberle leaves the team and that is nothing good. Stralman is still a LONG way away from being anywhere near Kaberle.

Lastly, two years is a long time to discuss on extending a contract if the Leafs really wanted to.


Last edited by Chandrashekhar Limit: 05-31-2009 at 12:06 AM.
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Old
05-30-2009, 02:12 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
This is what I get from this thread:

Some Leafs fans believe Kaberle >>>>> GOD. Good luck with that.
Would you trade god for Ian Cole and a first round pick? There hasn't really been much more than that, so far as I recall.

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Old
05-30-2009, 02:22 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Frenzy1 View Post
He isn't overaged. People need to get that thought out of their head (shoot, I have even seen Blues fans make the same statement). He turned 20 in May of this year. (Hence being able to play for the U20 team in Canada).

He is a very good player. This wasn't a break out season for him. Take a look at the 1st part of 07 - prior to his injury, the kid was on fire. He only played 29 games as an 18 year old. I expect him to turn out like Craig Conroy. He played a D role, grinder at the U20, but was a big part of the hitman's offense.

As for the trade, I would consider it. But I don't think we have the cap room (team cap not salary) to do it.
Well, I'll take the blame for that one - I obviously didn't do the math right on his age. Still, what I was saying is more of a general point, not really aimed at Sonne in particular - I'm very careful with players who have a big statistical season once they're older than many of their peers in the CHL. I've said the same thing about Jamie Benn in other threads. The fact that Sonne was injured most of last year does weigh in his favour though, since that definitely threw a wrench in his normal development.

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Old
05-30-2009, 02:27 PM
  #34
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I would love to have two years of Kaberle at 4.25 avg. per.

As much as I love Sonne I think the Blues would have to offer a better prospect to go with the 1st. That would not at all be a problem.

However, the Blues would need to convince Brewer it's in his best interests to take a Marty Rucinsky vacation on IR to kick in insurance(not a great idea considering there is a minimum amount of games,50 I think, that have to be reached before it kicks in).

Or my personal favorite, tell him to get lost permanently before he developes "more serious back problems". Like take a real vacation and just, you know..... don't report for training camp, thus voiding the contract(I can dream can't I).

That way the Blues have the money to do this, otherwise they can't afford him without salary going back the other way. So, this isn't possible at all without one of Brewer or McKee going the other way, and I think everyone here knows thats not happening.

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Old
05-30-2009, 02:57 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by 1927 View Post
Chris Pronger will be 35 years old in October. How many years of Pronger would the Blues have when trading assets for him? Better yet, to sign Pronger without trading any assets would equate to at least $6.25 million in cap hit. That is an extra $2 million for Chris Pronger over Kaberle. Realistically, is Pronger worth at least $2 million + to re-sign for maybe two to three years more of Pronger, over Kaberle for two years?

John Davidson has to be wise with cap management and ownership would most likely love to pay lesser dollar amounts to players that can produce on the blue line. Everyone understands that Pronger brings more intangibles than just puck moving skills, but at the end of the day it all comes down to the defence moving the puck up to the forwards in an efficient and error free fashion. This is something that Tomas Kaberle provides with ease at a much less cap hit, and could still be re-signed later on for a slight increase if necessary.

The Blues are stacked with young talent and the Los Angeles Kings General Manager Dean Lombardi even realizes an NHL team cannot build up their team with youth forever. It has been since 2002 when the Kings last made the playoffs and now it's time for Lombardi to bring in more veteran help to make the next level, as John Davidson would do well to take the same action.

To get the best trading asset the Leafs own, it will cost something more than a first round pick, as there are no guarantees with drafted players. This is why a prospect or young roster player would be useful for the Leafs to pull the trigger on any deal for one of the better puck moving defenseman in the NHL (on a sweetheart deal).

The only decent puck moving defenseman in the free agency pool is Jay Bouwmeester, a player that will command high dollar value to any team this year. After Jay Bouwmeester is potentially signed by another team, what does St. Louis have an option on the free agency market? The only option for the Blues is to trade for a puck moving defenseman, and quite frankly not a lot of teams are willing to part with their defenseman.

For any team wanting a good puck moving defenseman, Tomas Kaberle is the best option out there for all teams to consider given the circumstances with the Leafs and the cap hit Kaberle brings to the team trading for him.

Yes Pronger would be worth the extra assets or price in salary in St.Louis. The casual fans still love him and getting him back would instantly right a massive wrong in their eyes. I cannot even begin to imagine the buzz it would have in the offseason around town and tickets would get sold right and left. While St.Louis is a good hockey market we still are recovering and rebuilding the fan base after gutting the team and the years of lousy on ice performance. Not every team has the luxury of selling out at high prices even durring a rebuilding process.


Why exactly should St.Louis be taking notes from LA? That comment is just way off base. St.Louis has a good group of vets surrounding the kids as it is. Are they superstars? No but they are quality vets that fit in nicely with the young talent we have. It was that combination that got the Blues in the playoffs this year despite the injuries. It will be that same combination that lets the Blues compete for a spot next year.


Is it just me or do most Kaberle threads sound like some infomercial trying to sell the guy? Maybe the leafs need to hire Billy Mays or the Sham-wow guy this offseason to peddle the guy off.

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Old
05-30-2009, 03:05 PM
  #36
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St.Louis would have no reason to do this, they are full with young defenseman unless they would like a mentor for them than value is not far off.

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05-30-2009, 03:06 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by BlueBeard View Post
Yes Pronger would be worth the extra assets or price in salary in St.Louis. The casual fans still love him and getting him back would instantly right a massive wrong in their eyes. I cannot even begin to imagine the buzz it would have in the offseason around town and tickets would get sold right and left. While St.Louis is a good hockey market we still are recovering and rebuilding the fan base after gutting the team and the years of lousy on ice performance. Not every team has the luxury of selling out at high prices even durring a rebuilding process.


Why exactly should St.Louis be taking notes from LA? That comment is just way off base. St.Louis has a good group of vets surrounding the kids as it is. Are they superstars? No but they are quality vets that fit in nicely with the young talent we have. It was that combination that got the Blues in the playoffs this year despite the injuries. It will be that same combination that lets the Blues compete for a spot next year.


Is it just me or do most Kaberle threads sound like some infomercial trying to sell the guy? Maybe the leafs need to hire Billy Mays or the Sham-wow guy this offseason to peddle the guy off.


My vote is for the slap chop guy, he probably needs more work.

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Old
05-30-2009, 03:22 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by TK 421 View Post
[/B]

My vote is for the slap chop guy, he probably needs more work.
Slap-Chop guy IS the Sham-Wow guy. But yeah, he probably needs more work since he's now on a personaly campaign against The Church of Scientology.

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Old
05-30-2009, 03:27 PM
  #39
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Slap-Chop guy IS the Sham-Wow guy. But yeah, he probably needs more work since he's now on a personaly campaign against The Church of Scientology.
I had to share this. The mug shot is priceless.

http://gawker.com/5187540/shamwow-gu...annibal-hooker

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Old
05-30-2009, 03:31 PM
  #40
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If I'm Toronto I take this, with possibly a 3rd or 4th thrown in from STL. That's how you rebuild. Capitals traded Robert Lang when his stock was much higher than Kaberle's for Fleischmann and what was projected to be a very late 1st (Mike Green). Yeah, that was to help us tank during the season, but this draft seems to be good enough to get fair value for the pick. Especially if they then upgrade one of the 1st round picks through Grabovski or Ponikarovsky and a later pick. Getting Schenn and Cowen/Kulikov/Kadri/Moore/Josefsson in the same draft while ensuring they (inadvertently, of course) tank for Hall next year would be a major coup for Burke.

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Old
05-30-2009, 05:30 PM
  #41
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I'd probably take this deal if I was Blues GM...and since I'm very leery of trading away 1st round picks, that probably means the Leafs could do better.

Getting a player of Kaberle's caliber would be huge. It could mean the difference between hoping (realistically) for a return to the playoffs and to possibly win a round or two, and a ~100 point season and being amongst the 6-8 teams considered real Cup contenders.
Kaberle/Jackman
Johnson/Polak - - - - is a pretty nice D, and even better if Brewer is good to go next season.
Pietrangelo/McKee
I agree, this won't happen, but if pigs fly and it ever did it would be a nice deal for STL. STL could even throw in Brewer too just to get him out of town!

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Old
05-30-2009, 08:45 PM
  #42
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I agree, this won't happen, but if pigs fly and it ever did it would be a nice deal for STL. STL could even throw in Brewer too just to get him out of town!
Brewer has a NTC. However I would have no problem shipping him out.

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Old
05-30-2009, 09:22 PM
  #43
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Hard to influence the next crop of players when that crop is no where to be found in the farm.
Not much of realistic in you is there? Just because our farm isn't very strong doesn't mean we trade away our best asset for an unapealing offer.

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05-30-2009, 09:40 PM
  #44
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I think this is a good trade for both teams, thats if Burke does trade Kaberle, which I dont think will happen.

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05-30-2009, 11:08 PM
  #45
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This seems like excellent value (on the verge of "steal"-type value) for the Blues, but where the heck do they put ANOTHER defenseman?

EJ (if he's not our #1 at the start of the year, he will be by the end)
Brewer (assuming recovery from his back injury)
Jackman
Colaiacovo
McKee
Polak (assuming he's at least qualified, if not extended)
Pietrangelo (no way we sent him back to Niagara again)
Junland (AHL All-Star)
Strachan (most likely AHL depth, but availed himself pretty well in the bigs this yr)
Wagner (RFA)
Not counting Woywitka/Wagner (UFA's)

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05-30-2009, 11:23 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by mmitchell19 View Post
This seems like excellent value (on the verge of "steal"-type value) for the Blues, but where the heck do they put ANOTHER defenseman?

EJ (if he's not our #1 at the start of the year, he will be by the end)
Brewer (assuming recovery from his back injury)
Jackman
Colaiacovo
McKee
Polak (assuming he's at least qualified, if not extended)
Pietrangelo (no way we sent him back to Niagara again)
Junland (AHL All-Star)
Strachan (most likely AHL depth, but availed himself pretty well in the bigs this yr)
Wagner (RFA)
Not counting Woywitka/Wagner (UFA's)
Kaberle is better than those guys. Send Pietrangelo back to Niagra. and the coach will figure the rest out.

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05-30-2009, 11:37 PM
  #47
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Blues don't trade for a d man unless one is going the other way or Brewer is not coming back and we cannot find a FA to fill his spot.

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05-30-2009, 11:49 PM
  #48
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Blues don't trade for a d man unless one is going the other way or Brewer is not coming back and we cannot find a FA to fill his spot.
I don't know. Are Colaiacovo, Polak, and Mckee really that good that you don't need a top pairing guy like Kaberle?

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05-31-2009, 12:02 AM
  #49
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blues get a guy like kaberle its huge. you worry about moving the odd-man out later. TB certainly would be interested. blues are quickly becoming a fav of mine in terms of roster, goaltending is an area of concern, but if mason can play like he did down the stretch there shouldnt be any worries.

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05-31-2009, 12:51 AM
  #50
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I don't know. Are Colaiacovo, Polak, and Mckee really that good that you don't need a top pairing guy like Kaberle?
Of course Kabs would immediately supplant any of those guys on our back line. But we're also paying ~$16m in cap hit to Brewer, McKee, EJ and Jax. It'd be awfully tough to add another $4m+ cap hit back there without giving salary back to TO...specifically one of the bigger contracts like McKee or Jax (ideally Brew, but I highly doubt Burke would bite on that).

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