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Hemsky for the Kostitsyns

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Old
05-31-2009, 07:43 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Canadian Bacon View Post
Exactly. Kostitsyn got time to adjust to playing against grown men in the AHL, Hemsky went straight to the NHL. So there is a difference. A. Kost's first PRO season was in the AHL, Hemsky's was in the NHL.

I think you are overrating him WAY too much. Why is he harder to find?
Because he's Belarussian.

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05-31-2009, 07:48 PM
  #102
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montreal wishes.

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05-31-2009, 07:49 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Canadian Bacon View Post
Exactly. Kostitsyn got time to adjust to playing against grown men in the AHL, Hemsky went straight to the NHL. So there is a difference. A. Kost's first PRO season was in the AHL, Hemsky's was in the NHL.

I think you are overrating him WAY too much. Why is he harder to find?
Did you miss the part where Andrei was sick and therefore won't have the developmental curve of a regular player?

Just saying he's overrated doesn't make it true. How is Andrei overrated? We don't want to trade the Kostitsyns, okay? Keep Hemsky. I don't care. No need to pull this crap. In any case, the Kostitsyns are good players with plenty of potential whether or not you believe it. Did you really think Carter would score 45+goals? Probably not, but he had the potential. And Andrei definitely has potential if you ****ing watch him objectively. Forget that he's a Hab or a Belorussian or anything the newspaper tells you. You'll see he's a player with a great deal of skill.

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05-31-2009, 07:51 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by schenn29 View Post
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No, we really don't. People here will just bash the Habs. Prove me wrong. Show me what is wrong with the Kostitsyns. And don't parrot lines like "no heart" unless you can back it up.

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05-31-2009, 07:54 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by MonacoBlue View Post
Did you miss the part where Andrei was sick and therefore won't have the developmental curve of a regular player?

Just saying he's overrated doesn't make it true. How is Andrei overrated? We don't want to trade the Kostitsyns, okay? Keep Hemsky. I don't care. No need to pull this crap. In any case, the Kostitsyns are good players with plenty of potential whether or not you believe it. Did you really think Carter would score 45+goals? Probably not, but he had the potential. And Andrei definitely has potential if you ****ing watch him objectively. Forget that he's a Hab or a Belorussian or anything the newspaper tells you. You'll see he's a player with a great deal of skill.
Maybe you can't read correctly. I said MONTREAL FANS overrate him. I personally think Andrei is a very good player, and I'm a Bruins fan. I just don't think he's as good as Hemsky.

You need to settle down and put your glasses on to actually read what I said.

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05-31-2009, 08:04 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Canadian Bacon View Post
Maybe you can't read correctly. I said MONTREAL FANS overrate him. I personally think Andrei is a very good player, and I'm a Bruins fan. I just don't think he's as good as Hemsky.

You need to settle down and put your glasses on to actually read what I said.
I'm a Montreal fan and I don't think I overrated him at all. Who overrates him exactly? He's not perfect. Most fans realize that, but we also don't want to trade him. So who overrates him and what would you consider "overrating?"

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05-31-2009, 08:09 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by MonacoBlue View Post
No, we really don't. People here will just bash the Habs. Prove me wrong. Show me what is wrong with the Kostitsyns. And don't parrot lines like "no heart" unless you can back it up.
We aren't saying that the Kostitsyns have something wrong with them. We are just saying that they aren't worth Hemsky. Jason Spezza isn't worth Alexander Ovechkin. That doesn't mean that I think something is wrong with Spezza. It means that he isn't worth Ovechkin. Same here with the Kostitsyns.

I wouldn't trade a 25 year old player who has almost proven to put up a point per game (137 in 146 the past to years) for a 24 year old 40 point player and a 35 point player who is 22.

One player who has averaged 76 points (per 82 games played) over the past two seasons is worth more then TWO players who will put up the same amount of points as that one. Both sides having equal cap numbers as well.

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05-31-2009, 08:10 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by MonacoBlue View Post
I'm a Montreal fan and I don't think I overrated him at all. Who overrates him exactly? He's not perfect. Most fans realize that, but we also don't want to trade him. So who overrates him and what would you consider "overrating?"
The person I quoted when you quoted my post.

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05-31-2009, 08:11 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by MonacoBlue View Post
I'm a Montreal fan and I don't think I overrated him at all. Who overrates him exactly? He's not perfect. Most fans realize that, but we also don't want to trade him. So who overrates him and what would you consider "overrating?"
Saying that he is an elite sniper is 100% over rating no matter what way you look at it. Saying that he is a future 40 goal scorer is probably over rating too.

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05-31-2009, 08:13 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by MonacoBlue View Post
I'm a Montreal fan and I don't think I overrated him at all. Who overrates him exactly? He's not perfect. Most fans realize that, but we also don't want to trade him. So who overrates him and what would you consider "overrating?"
Do you ever feel like you're alone on a deserted island?

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05-31-2009, 08:17 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Regin 43 View Post
Saying that he is an elite sniper is 100% over rating no matter what way you look at it. Saying that he is a future 40 goal scorer is probably over rating too.
Nobody thinks he's an elite sniper, and nobody said he will score 40 goals in the future. He just has the potential and you can't trade him until you know what you have.

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Do you ever feel like you're alone on a deserted island?
Many times.

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05-31-2009, 08:21 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Regin 43 View Post
We aren't saying that the Kostitsyns have something wrong with them. We are just saying that they aren't worth Hemsky. Jason Spezza isn't worth Alexander Ovechkin. That doesn't mean that I think something is wrong with Spezza. It means that he isn't worth Ovechkin. Same here with the Kostitsyns.

I wouldn't trade a 25 year old player who has almost proven to put up a point per game (137 in 146 the past to years) for a 24 year old 40 point player and a 35 point player who is 22.

One player who has averaged 76 points (per 82 games played) over the past two seasons is worth more then TWO players who will put up the same amount of points as that one. Both sides having equal cap numbers as well.
I don't put much stock into past stats. When it comes to judging players, it's better to just look at their skill, their situation, etc. Do you think Hemsky would have even put up those numbers in Montreal? Reverse the situations. Give Hemsky a sickness. Make it so that he barely speaks English. Throw him to the wolves of the Montreal media and fans. See what his numbers look like.

I really like Hemsky as a player, but (as you know) he's not Ovechkin. He isn't one of those assets that teams will want to give up everything for. I just don't want to trade both Kostitsyns for Hemsky and I have a feeling, based on his trading history and his faith in the Kost bros, that he agrees with me.

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05-31-2009, 08:24 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by peperebougon View Post
Sergei: elite passing skills
Andrei: elite wristshot and slapshot coupled with very good stickandling.
hmm....

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Originally Posted by MonacoBlue View Post
Nobody thinks he's an elite sniper, and nobody said he will score 40 goals in the future. He just has the potential and you can't trade him until you know what you have.

Okkaayyyy? So saying that he has an elite wristshot and an elite slapshot is not saying that he is an elite sniper?

And so your saying you would rather have a 40 point player with the potential of a 70 point player then an already proven 70 point player who also has the potential to keep improving?

I am glad you are not the GM of Edmonton or Ottawa.

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05-31-2009, 08:30 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by MonacoBlue View Post
I don't put much stock into past stats. When it comes to judging players, it's better to just look at their skill, their situation, etc. Do you think Hemsky would have even put up those numbers in Montreal? Reverse the situations. Give Hemsky a sickness. Make it so that he barely speaks English. Throw him to the wolves of the Montreal media and fans. See what his numbers look like.

I really like Hemsky as a player, but (as you know) he's not Ovechkin. He isn't one of those assets that teams will want to give up everything for. I just don't want to trade both Kostitsyns for Hemsky and I have a feeling, based on his trading history and his faith in the Kost bros, that he agrees with me.
Actually I would much rather have Koivu/Kovalev/Tanguay/Higgins as linemates then Horcoff/Penner/Reddox. But I guess if you prefer Reddox to any of those players then that's fine too. Hemsky learned english himself after coming over here... it's not his fault that the Kostitsyns haven't worked hard enough on learning english. Edmonton has top 5 harsh fans in the league as well actually. The Oilers ARE Edmonton.

And saying give up everything is a ridiculous statement IMO. Kostitsyns are no where near everything.

However the Gainey point is valid. He doesn't like to make changes that will effect the roster much (very much like Bryan Murray here in Ottawa) so maybe he wouldn't do it. But IMO it would be a bad move for him to not do this trade (and yes I know that it wasn't actually offered it is just hfboards)

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05-31-2009, 08:41 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Regin 43 View Post
Actually I would much rather have Koivu/Kovalev/Tanguay/Higgins as linemates then Horcoff/Penner/Reddox. But I guess if you prefer Reddox to any of those players then that's fine too. Hemsky learned english himself after coming over here... it's not his fault that the Kostitsyns haven't worked hard enough on learning english. Edmonton has top 5 harsh fans in the league as well actually. The Oilers ARE Edmonton.

And saying give up everything is a ridiculous statement IMO. Kostitsyns are no where near everything.

However the Gainey point is valid. He doesn't like to make changes that will effect the roster much (very much like Bryan Murray here in Ottawa) so maybe he wouldn't do it. But IMO it would be a bad move for him to not do this trade (and yes I know that it wasn't actually offered it is just hfboards)
For whatever reasons, Russians struggle adapting to North American language and culture more than other Europeans. Ovechkin's ease in adapting to NA makes us forgot how hard it really is for Russians. That's why so many of them go home early. I think you should cut him some slack there.

As for the linemates thing, Kostitsyn the last year was playing with Plekanec and Kovalev most of the year. The whole line struggled and had no chemistry. Plekanec sucked and, to make things worse, he would only pass to Kovalev. Kovalev, as we all know, isn't that keen on passing to his linemates, either. Kostitsyn was good when playing with Koivu, Higgins, D'Agostini, etc. but Carbo, in his idiocy, would always go back to playing Kostitsyn with Kovalev and Plekanec. I believe that, prior to Carbo being fired, Kostitsyn was a PPG without Kovalev and Plekanec.

After Gainey became coach, Andrei was stuck with Plekanec again as Gainey loaded up his stars on one line. Besides all that, you should realize the linemates thing is moot when the whole team is playing like crap. It's not like anybody on the Habs had a great year.

Finally, Edmonton has some rabid fans, but they're nothing like Montreal's. Come back to me when the Oilers experience "the darkest day in Oilers' history."

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05-31-2009, 08:44 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Regin 43 View Post
hmm....




Okkaayyyy? So saying that he has an elite wristshot and an elite slapshot is not saying that he is an elite sniper?

And so your saying you would rather have a 40 point player with the potential of a 70 point player then an already proven 70 point player who also has the potential to keep improving?

I am glad you are not the GM of Edmonton or Ottawa.
Lol, he doesn't represent what I believe or what most fans beliee.

And you make it seem like the Habs would only be trading one Kostitsyn. Trading one of them for Hemsky is okay, but definitely not both. And you could tell definitely call Kostitsyn a 50 point player, seeing as how he has reached that level before. I don't he's peaked at 24, either. Do you really believe that?

The point is, Hemsky is a 80-85 point player at his best (IMO). Kostitsyn is already a 50 point player with potential for 70+. Trading him for Hemsky isn't a bad deal, but trading him and his brother is a no-go.

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05-31-2009, 08:48 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by MonacoBlue View Post

After Gainey became coach, Andrei was stuck with Plekanec again as Gainey loaded up his stars on one line. Besides all that, you should realize the linemates thing is moot when the whole team is playing like crap. It's not like anybody on the Habs had a great year.

Finally, Edmonton has some rabid fans, but they're nothing like Montreal's. Come back to me when the Oilers experience "the darkest day in Oilers' history."
The bolded part is ridiculous. Penner had the worst season of his career. Horcoff had a horrible year. And Erik Cole didn't do anything as an Oiler. And not one person (except for Hemsky/Gilbert/Grebs) had good years on the Oilers.

And no we haven't had "the darkest day in Oilers history" but I'm pretty sure that Montreal had a better team this year then the Oilers, they scored more goals and they made the playoffs. The reason they had their darkest day is because they cracked under pressure (as I predicted). Not just the Kostitsyns, it was EVERYONE but the Kostitsyns were no better then Kovalev, Markov, Tanguay, Koivu, D'agostini, Latendresse this year. And yes I do realise that Latendresse's stats weren't that great but IMO he is one of the Habs better players.

So the linemate/bad season for the team point your trying to make isn't really working here.

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05-31-2009, 08:51 PM
  #118
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Come back to me when the Oilers experience "the darkest day in Oilers' history."
May I direct your attention to August 9th, 1988.

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05-31-2009, 08:52 PM
  #119
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For whatever reasons, Russians struggle adapting to North American language and culture more than other Europeans. Ovechkin's ease in adapting to NA makes us forgot how hard it really is for Russians. That's why so many of them go home early. I think you should cut him some slack there.
Please sir, be nice to our Russian players, they dont speak English. Wah Wah Wah! Regin is right, many Habs fans have claimed A. Kos is a potential 40 goal scorer. I think he's good but wouldnt trade the 2 kosts for Hemsky. Hemsky is a good player that both kosts can only hope to turn into.

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05-31-2009, 08:55 PM
  #120
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May I direct your attention to August 9th, 1988.
No ****, that trumps any bad day Monteal has had.

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05-31-2009, 08:55 PM
  #121
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The bolded part is ridiculous. Penner had the worst season of his career. Horcoff had a horrible year. And Erik Cole didn't do anything as an Oiler. And not one person (except for Hemsky/Gilbert/Grebs) had good years on the Oilers.

And no we haven't had "the darkest day in Oilers history" but I'm pretty sure that Montreal had a better team this year then the Oilers, they scored more goals and they made the playoffs. The reason they had their darkest day is because they cracked under pressure (as I predicted). Not just the Kostitsyns, it was EVERYONE but the Kostitsyns were no better then Kovalev, Markov, Tanguay, Koivu, D'agostini, Latendresse this year. And yes I do realise that Latendresse's stats weren't that great but IMO he is one of the Habs better players.

So the linemate/bad season for the team point your trying to make isn't really working here.
My point is that Kostitsyn has developed in a very different environment than Hemsky. That's why it's taking Kostitsyn longer to establish himself. Montreal eats players alive and I really don't think Edmonton does this. Look at how young players are treated here. There are nationalists who will criticize all our young guys just because they're not from Quebec. Never mind that they're young and still developing. Even Guy Lafleur called the Habs a team of 4th liners once! The paparazzi-like media go around spying on players (they spied on Koivu at the hospital!) and they speculate with no evidence. The people are impatient and they'll boo you if they feel like it. Edmonton doesn't treat its players nearly as bad as Montreal. Add to that the fact that he's Belarussian and he was basically a project when the Habs drafted him (because of his illness) and it makes perfect sense that he won't be as good as Hemsky right now. But that doesn't mean the talent isn't there because I can see that it is.

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05-31-2009, 08:58 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Discipline View Post
May I direct your attention to August 9th, 1988.
Lol that's not what I meant. The fans had every right to be angry in that situation. Completely different. The Kostitsyns were pretty much bashed for...nothing. The media was saying "more to come." Nothing came. It's not the same at all. The Habs had clueless fans and a media that violated journalistic ethics to the point that they could be sued.

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05-31-2009, 08:59 PM
  #123
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Lol, he doesn't represent what I believe or what most fans beliee.

And you make it seem like the Habs would only be trading one Kostitsyn. Trading one of them for Hemsky is okay, but definitely not both. And you could tell definitely call Kostitsyn a 50 point player, seeing as how he has reached that level before. I don't he's peaked at 24, either. Do you really believe that?

The point is, Hemsky is a 80-85 point player at his best (IMO). Kostitsyn is already a 50 point player with potential for 70+. Trading him for Hemsky isn't a bad deal, but trading him and his brother is a no-go.
Okay so a 75 point player isn't worth a 50 point player and a 30 point player? All of them similar in age and untapped potential? Would you trade the Kostitsyn's for either of the Sedin's? Thomas Vanek? Phil Kessel? Because I would say Hemsky is pretty close to Kessel and Vanek in skill and better then a Sedin by himself.

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05-31-2009, 09:02 PM
  #124
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No ****, that trumps any bad day Monteal has had.
That is the worst day in NHL history for a single team. That was a god aweful trade as well.

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05-31-2009, 09:03 PM
  #125
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Okay so a 75 point player isn't worth a 50 point player and a 30 point player? All of them similar in age and untapped potential? Would you trade the Kostitsyn's for either of the Sedin's? Thomas Vanek? Phil Kessel? Because I would say Hemsky is pretty close to Kessel and Vanek in skill and better then a Sedin by himself.
But Kostitsyn isn't just a 50 point player. He's a 50 point player with potential for 70+ points. And Sergei isn't just a 30 point player either. The potential that Andrei has is below Hemsky's but not enough for me to trade both brothers.

I would definitely trade the Kostitsyns for both Sedins, but not for one. I would, however, trade both Kostitsyns for Vanek simply because he is such a great goalscorer. I also think Vanek has more upside than Hemsky. Call me crazy but I think Vanek can be a 90-100 player. As for Kessel, I'm not sure. He's not exactly proven, but I would consider it.

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