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Hemsky for the Kostitsyns

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Old
06-01-2009, 06:59 AM
  #176
Blind Gardien
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleatus View Post
Did you not see the two Montreal fans in this thread saying stuff like "watch, Andrei will score 40 goals next year, and you will all be sorry."?
You yourself said he has the potential to score 40. Nobody said he has already done it.
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The attitude issues I'm referring to are his mini meltdowns where he pulls little cheapshots, and his overall lack of heart.
I've seen every game he played in the NHL and I'm not sure what you're referring to. Are you talking about Andrei or Sergei here? The lack of heart is unquantifiable, and has been levelled at much better players than both Kostitsyn and Hemsky, it is purely subjective.
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I guess I shouldn't have included the Grabovski thing because it was only speculated on The Score during one of their talks. I'll delete it, however, I really do believe that was a huge factor in why he didn't play for Belarus.
You are welcome to your beliefs, but when you openly admit you have no justification for those beliefs, it makes it difficult for others to take them seriously.

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06-01-2009, 08:09 AM
  #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
You yourself said he has the potential to score 40. Nobody said he has already done it.
No, but they're implying that he'll do it as soon as next year, and that we'll all be "sorry" for doubting their outlandish predictions. It's an absolute joke to be implying that kind of stuff when he's coming off a terrible year, and hasn't even scored 30 yet. They're also implying that he's equivalent to Hemsky, which is also a joke.

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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I've seen every game he played in the NHL and I'm not sure what you're referring to. Are you talking about Andrei or Sergei here? The lack of heart is unquantifiable, and has been levelled at much better players than both Kostitsyn and Hemsky, it is purely subjective.
I've talked to many Habs fans who aren't blinded by the blue and red goggles, and they know he lacks heart.

As for you Habs fans saying the brothers are worth Hemsky, here's their value individually.

Andrei Kostitsyn: 2nd round pick.
Sergei Kostitsyn: 4th round pick (3rd if you're lucky).

Hemsky is worth atleast a mid-1st and a 2nd, therefore, the Kostitsyns together aren't worth more than Hemsky.

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06-01-2009, 08:26 AM
  #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleatus View Post
No, but they're implying that he'll do it as soon as next year, and that we'll all be "sorry" for doubting their outlandish predictions. It's an absolute joke to be implying that kind of stuff when he's coming off a terrible year, and hasn't even scored 30 yet. They're also implying that he's equivalent to Hemsky, which is also a joke.
I would be very pleasantly surprised if Kostitsyn scored 40 next season. I don't think it's impossible. You said yourself that you thought he had the potential to score 40, so I'm not sure where you're coming from.
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I've talked to many Habs fans who aren't blinded by the blue and red goggles, and they know he lacks heart.
So long as you acknowledge that it's an unjustifiable and subjective opinion, that's fine. Some people think Hemsky lacks heart too. I don't have any time for either viewpoint.
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As for you Habs fans saying the brothers are worth Hemsky, here's their value individually.

Andrei Kostitsyn: 2nd round pick.
Sergei Kostitsyn: 4th round pick (3rd if you're lucky).

Hemsky is worth atleast a mid-1st and a 2nd, therefore, the Kostitsyns together aren't worth more than Hemsky.
Sorry, but I think all of those valuations are off. I also don't see many Habs fans saying the Kostitsyns are worth Hemsky either. The prevailing opinion seems to be that they're worth more... *to the Habs*, but with the attached understanding that Hemsky should also be worth more *to the Oilers*. At least, that's my reading of the generalized consensus of Habs fans posting here.

Andrei is worth more than a 1st round pick.
Hemsky is worth more than a 1st+2nd.
Sergei is worth more than a 3rd.

I'm surprised that if you place those draft pick valuations against NHL players that you wouldn't value the Kostitsyns' potential more highly than you do.

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06-01-2009, 08:46 AM
  #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleatus View Post
No, but they're implying that he'll do it as soon as next year, and that we'll all be "sorry" for doubting their outlandish predictions. It's an absolute joke to be implying that kind of stuff when he's coming off a terrible year, and hasn't even scored 30 yet. They're also implying that he's equivalent to Hemsky, which is also a joke.
Gee, sounds exactly like Oiler fans talking about Hemsky's inevitable ascent to superstardom, which we're assured is coming every year.

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06-01-2009, 09:15 AM
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I would be very pleasantly surprised if Kostitsyn scored 40 next season. I don't think it's impossible. You said yourself that you thought he had the potential to score 40, so I'm not sure where you're coming from.
So long as you acknowledge that it's an unjustifiable and subjective opinion, that's fine. Some people think Hemsky lacks heart too. I don't have any time for either viewpoint.
To each his own. I won't deny his potential, but he lacks the heart and work ethic. Zherdev also has a ton of potential, but he's lazy and also lacks heart (however, I don't think Andrei is as bad as him in those departments).

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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Sorry, but I think all of those valuations are off. I also don't see many Habs fans saying the Kostitsyns are worth Hemsky either. The prevailing opinion seems to be that they're worth more... *to the Habs*, but with the attached understanding that Hemsky should also be worth more *to the Oilers*. At least, that's my reading of the generalized consensus of Habs fans posting here.

Andrei is worth more than a 1st round pick.
Hemsky is worth more than a 1st+2nd.
Sergei is worth more than a 3rd.

I'm surprised that if you place those draft pick valuations against NHL players that you wouldn't value the Kostitsyns' potential more highly than you do.
The Habs fans in this thread are implying that the brothers together are worth more than Hemsky. One even said that Edmonton should add an additional 1st.

And name one team that'd give up a 1st in this year's or next year's draft for Andrei Kostitsyn. He'd probably be worth a 1st in the 2011 draft, but that's supposed to be a very weak draft class. And please don't bring up the Umberger trade. That was an absolute heist for Philidelphia.

However, you're right about the brothers having more value to the Habs than they do around the league (as of now, you'd have to overpay to get them).

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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
Gee, sounds exactly like Oiler fans talking about Hemsky's inevitable ascent to superstardom, which we're assured is coming every year.
Thing is, Hemsky has actually shown that he can be a star in this league (I wouldn't call him a superstar). He's a PPG player on a bad team, and I don't think he's reached his peak.

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06-01-2009, 09:28 AM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Cleatus View Post
To each his own. I won't deny his potential, but he lacks the heart and work ethic. Zherdev also has a ton of potential, but he's lazy and also lacks heart (however, I don't think Andrei is as bad as him in those departments).



The Habs fans in this thread are implying that the brothers together are worth more than Hemsky. One even said that Edmonton should add an additional 1st.

And name one team that'd give up a 1st in this year's or next year's draft for Andrei Kostitsyn. He'd probably be worth a 1st in the 2011 draft, but that's supposed to be a very weak draft class. And please don't bring up the Umberger trade. That was an absolute heist for Philidelphia.

However, you're right about the brothers having more value to the Habs than they do around the league (as of now, you'd have to overpay to get them).



Thing is, Hemsky has actually shown that he can be a star in this league (I wouldn't call him a superstar). He's a PPG player on a bad team, and I don't think he's reached his peak.
I'm a Habs' fan and I'm not saying that the Oilers should add anything. I am saying that I don't want Hemsky though. I live in BC and get to watch him fairly regularly and he's exactly in the same mold of what we have too much off: Dipsy-doodlers. The Habs need quality grit and Hemsky is not it! That's what I'm saying. Some Oilers' fans seem to see Hemsky as the next Iginla though and that's far from reality.

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06-01-2009, 09:51 AM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleatus View Post
The Habs fans in this thread are implying that the brothers together are worth more than Hemsky.
Yes. To the Habs. I think Habs fans are probably in the best position (amongst fans) to make that choice. We've seen the best and the worst of them. The best looks really good. And we're in bad enough shape that we pretty much have to gamble on the best coming back and staying for a while.
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And name one team that'd give up a 1st in this year's or next year's draft for Andrei Kostitsyn.
Name one team that wouldn't? If you agree that Kostitsyn is a potential 40-goal scorer, it seems strange that teams wouldn't give up a 1st for him. But whether they would or wouldn't is a moot point... the Habs wouldn't let him go for a 1st.

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06-01-2009, 09:55 AM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
I'm a Habs' fan and I'm not saying that the Oilers should add anything. I am saying that I don't want Hemsky though. I live in BC and get to watch him fairly regularly and he's exactly in the same mold of what we have too much off: Dipsy-doodlers. The Habs need quality grit and Hemsky is not it! That's what I'm saying. Some Oilers' fans seem to see Hemsky as the next Iginla though and that's far from reality.
I guess that's also true. The Habs are in need of a big #1 center (Lecavalier), and a gritty right-winger who's capable of scoring goals (a Nathan Horton type). They have a plethora of small skilled players, and while Hemsky would be good for them, he's not the type of player they need.

I was simply implying that by trade value (not by team value), the Kostitsyn brothers are not worth Hemsky.

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06-01-2009, 10:03 AM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Yes. To the Habs. I think Habs fans are probably in the best position (amongst fans) to make that choice. We've seen the best and the worst of them. The best looks really good. And we're in bad enough shape that we pretty much have to gamble on the best coming back and staying for a while.
Name one team that wouldn't? If you agree that Kostitsyn is a potential 40-goal scorer, it seems strange that teams wouldn't give up a 1st for him. But whether they would or wouldn't is a moot point... the Habs wouldn't let him go for a 1st.
Every team wouldn't, unless the Habs added more (Andrei and a 2nd could probably get a 20th-30th overall pick). We've got two very deep drafts ahead, and GMs will be very reluctant to give up their 1st rounders.

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06-01-2009, 10:13 AM
  #185
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I would not do it from an Habs pov

I love Hemsky.
He played in QMJHL and was pretty good.

I wouldnt do it because we have like 10 UFA and were not in position to trade two roster player for one.

If Hemsky was a center then I would do it.

I think this would be a good trade for both team, I think Kost brother would play well in Western conference especially with a skating team like the Oilers.

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06-01-2009, 10:27 AM
  #186
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btw
any center available in Edmonton?

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06-01-2009, 10:45 AM
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleatus View Post
Every team wouldn't, unless the Habs added more (Andrei and a 2nd could probably get a 20th-30th overall pick). We've got two very deep drafts ahead, and GMs will be very reluctant to give up their 1st rounders.
So Andrei Kostitsyn and a 2nd rounder gets you the 20th-30th overall pick. Got it. Habs pass on that even quicker than on the original proposal.

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06-01-2009, 10:55 AM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Name one team that wouldn't? If you agree that Kostitsyn is a potential 40-goal scorer, it seems strange that teams wouldn't give up a 1st for him. But whether they would or wouldn't is a moot point... the Habs wouldn't let him go for a 1st.
I'll name at least five. No team in the top five or so would even give it much (if any) consideration.

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06-01-2009, 11:29 AM
  #189
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Both Kost is overpayment, just ask anybody with decent hockey knowledge
Habs fans..

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Originally Posted by #57 View Post
In what world does Grabovski has more potential than Sergei K?

Grabovski had 48 points in 78 games playing 1st line minutes!! He is 25 and still can't stand on his skates for a full shift at the NHL level.

SK had 27 and 23 points in 52 and 56 games, playing limited minutes the last 2 seasons, just turned 22 and is becoming a better player every game he plays in the NHL.

If Sergei doesn't get at least 60 points in one of the next 3 seasons in the NHL, I will blow up the Bell Center, during a game (against Toronto or Boston, preferably).

No, seriously, Sergei is going to be a star. He's kinda like Tanguay, except more gritty, just not as good defensively, but that will come. Sergei's offensive zone vision is second to none.

Penalty shot goal he scored in his rookie year:


OK, what about this: cheap shots Krejci while leading 6-1 in the 3rd, then fights Kobasew. Can't blame him for not being intense/involved in the game/physical
Grabs playing first line minutes for the 78 games (let alone the majority of the season is false. But that youtube video of a common shot to the roof of the net changed my mind about Kostitsyn!

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06-01-2009, 11:32 AM
  #190
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The value could be 100% even, but Edmonton still doesn't make this deal. It just doesn't make any kind of sense. The last thing the Oilers need are two more 40 2nd line wingers, especially at the expense of their best player.

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06-01-2009, 11:40 AM
  #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
So Andrei Kostitsyn and a 2nd rounder gets you the 20th-30th overall pick. Got it. Habs pass on that even quicker than on the original proposal.
I didn't say that the Habs would do it, but that's what he's worth (and the reason why the Habs wouldn't do it).

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06-01-2009, 11:44 AM
  #192
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#57... Sergei Kostitsyn scores one nice penalty shot, and suddenly he's a 60 point player? Wow... The blue and red goggles in this thread are unbelievable.

Grabovski is pretty good in the shootout, and carried Belarus on his back, so that must mean he's a future 100 point player. /End sarcasm.

On a serious note, Sergei couldn't touch Grabovski's jock strap. Get your head out of your ass. Grabovski didn't play 1st line minutes. I'm pretty sure his average was around 16 minutes a game.

However, he played around 25 minutes a game for Belarus, and played in every situation (including the PK).

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06-01-2009, 11:52 AM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Cleatus View Post
#57... Sergei Kostitsyn scores one nice penalty shot, and suddenly he's a 60 point player? Wow... The blue and red goggles in this thread are unbelievable.

Grabovski is pretty good in the shootout, and carried Belarus on his back, so that must mean he's a future 100 point player. /End sarcasm.

On a serious note, Sergei couldn't touch Grabovski's jock strap. Get your head out of your ass. Grabovski didn't play 1st line minutes. I'm pretty sure his average was around 16 minutes a game.

However, he played around 25 minutes a game for Belarus, and played in every situation (including the PK).
You live in London and you don't think Sergei can score 60 pts in the NHL? What the ****? Moreover, you think Grabs is better?

Let's discuss this in 3 years shall we?

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06-01-2009, 11:56 AM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
You live in London and you don't think Sergei can score 60 pts in the NHL? What the ****? Moreover, you think Grabs is better?

Let's discuss this in 3 years shall we?
At this point, Grabovski is looking like the much better player.

And I'm a huge London Knights fan. Sergei Kostitsyn was a damn good OHL player, but who's to say that his success in a lesser league will translate to the NHL? Keep in mind that he was also playing with Patrick Kane and Sam Gagner.

Sergei Kostitsyn will be a good two-way second liner capable of 40-50 points. Grabovski's ceiling is 60+ points, and he'll be decent defensively with Ron Wilson's guidance (however, I won't classify him as a two-way player).

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06-01-2009, 03:38 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Name one team that wouldn't? If you agree that Kostitsyn is a potential 40-goal scorer, it seems strange that teams wouldn't give up a 1st for him. But whether they would or wouldn't is a moot point... the Habs wouldn't let him go for a 1st.
I'd say that every player in the top 16 this year has the potential to be better then Andrei. So the top 16, Detroit, Islanders, Boston (cap), Philly (cap), Rangers (cap), Pheonix again, Chicago, New Jersey, Washington

Meaning that St. Louis, Carolina, Vancouver, Pittsburgh would all possibly trade a first for him. Pittsburgh has Kunitz so they wouldn't. Carolina has amazing forward depth so they wouldn't. I don't know where Vancouver stands , I guess they have a lot of cap space. Andrei is not worth a 17th pick. And yes I realize how much people over rate draft picks... Andre iis just not that good.

So basically no team would trade a first rounder for him except for maybe Vancouver. And I know that I wouldn't want Ottawa or Edmonton to trade their second for him.

And if you honestly believe that Montreal wouldn't trade him for a top 10 pick then Montreal should get some new management.

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06-02-2009, 08:02 AM
  #196
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Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
You live in London and you don't think Sergei can score 60 pts in the NHL? What the ****? Moreover, you think Grabs is better?

Let's discuss this in 3 years shall we?
Grabs is better. I believe you are in the minority though, still fine.

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06-02-2009, 08:25 AM
  #197
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Originally Posted by Cleatus View Post
Thing is, Hemsky has actually shown that he can be a star in this league (I wouldn't call him a superstar). He's a PPG player on a bad team, and I don't think he's reached his peak.
That's fine but just as we're assured Hemsky hasn't hit his peak yet, neither have the Kostitsyns.

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Originally Posted by Cleatus View Post
At this point, Grabovski is looking like the much better player.

And I'm a huge London Knights fan. Sergei Kostitsyn was a damn good OHL player, but who's to say that his success in a lesser league will translate to the NHL? Keep in mind that he was also playing with Patrick Kane and Sam Gagner.

Sergei Kostitsyn will be a good two-way second liner capable of 40-50 points. Grabovski's ceiling is 60+ points, and he'll be decent defensively with Ron Wilson's guidance (however, I won't classify him as a two-way player).
At this point, Grabovski should look like the much better player. He's three years older than Sergei and gets scads of ice time on the Leafs. Actually even despite the fact that he's older than Sergei, their career point totals are very close as of now.

In his first two years, Sergei put up a 0.46 PPG pace (0.62 in the playoffs). You have him pegged at capable of 40-50 points, which is a 0.55 PPG pace. So while Grabovski is capable of putting up 20+ more points, Sergei has already pretty much topped out offensively?

Not to mention that Sergei routinely killed penalties in the AHL and OHL, including 5-on-3s, and occasionally in the NHL (and arguably would have for Belarus as well had he not been injured). He has the capability to be a much better player than you want to give him credit for.

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06-02-2009, 11:43 AM
  #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
That's fine but just as we're assured Hemsky hasn't hit his peak yet, neither have the Kostitsyns.

At this point, Grabovski should look like the much better player. He's three years older than Sergei and gets scads of ice time on the Leafs. Actually even despite the fact that he's older than Sergei, their career point totals are very close as of now.

In his first two years, Sergei put up a 0.46 PPG pace (0.62 in the playoffs). You have him pegged at capable of 40-50 points, which is a 0.55 PPG pace. So while Grabovski is capable of putting up 20+ more points, Sergei has already pretty much topped out offensively?

Not to mention that Sergei routinely killed penalties in the AHL and OHL, including 5-on-3s, and occasionally in the NHL (and arguably would have for Belarus as well had he not been injured). He has the capability to be a much better player than you want to give him credit for.
Considering how Grabovski placed 4th in rookie scoring with 48 points (in 78 games), and played very well with Ponikarovsky, yes, I can see him being capable of 12+ more points.

Neither of the Kostitsyn's peaks are near Hemsky's. Andrei's ceiling is around 70 points (30-40 goals), but that's if he can put it all together. And like I said before, I can only see Sergei getting around 50 points at the NHL level (if he puts it all together).

And again, Grabovski only got around 16 minutes of ice time a game, so I don't see where you guys are getting "scads of ice-time" and "first line minutes" from.

While Grabovski was showing off his NHL capabilities, Sergei was down in the minors. Sergei hasn't shown anything at the NHL level that indicates he'll be anymore than a 40-50 point player. He may have been good in the OHL and AHL, but he's playing against boys, NHL prospects, and NHL rejects.

Also, did you watch Belarus at the World Cup? Grabovski was a monster, and was the main reason why they got so far. They came so close to beating Russia, Grabovski even had 3 assists in that game.

I was actually angry when Andrei Kostitsyn didn't join them. He would've been great with Grabovski, and could've put that team over the top. It would've also been cool to see Sergei join. The top line would've been S.Kostitsyn-Grabovski-A.Kostitsyn.


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