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Barret Jackman to the Islanders

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Old
05-31-2009, 09:06 PM
  #26
jmwc95
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
Ah come on,he's gonna be the NYI's top minutes dman in all defensive situations (and a #2 overall).
That's a fine plan if you are going for the 1st overall pick in next year's draft as well.

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05-31-2009, 09:15 PM
  #27
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A bag of pucks? Honestly, I can't see any GM in their right mind trading a 2nd round pick for Jackman with his contract. Say what you want about who he was matched up against, but statistically, Jackman was horrible at keeping the puck out of his own net, and brings nothing to the table offensively either other than being able to pinch in and keep the puck in the offensive zone occasionally (but beware, he can also get burned for odd man rushes). Jackman is simply not worth the amount of his contract. You would be better signing a run of the mill free agent defenseman and keeping your 2nd round pick.

Also, JD and company seem to like Jackman (their ability to evaluate defensemen is seriously called into question with the contracts they've handed out to McKee, Brewer, and Jackman), and probably won't trade him with all the young inexperience they will probably have on the blueline next season coupled with the fact that Brewer's future (who is also equally inept) is in question. The Isle would probably have to overpay to pry Jackman away from the Blues, and given his bad contract, why would they do that? As much as it pains me to say it, Jackman will probably stay with the Blues till the end of his contract unless some team give us something really good back (which I seriously doubt).

Also, I'm not certain, but there was some question as to whether or not Jackman had a NTC on his contract.
I disagree with you about what Jackman's value is around the league. There seems to be a disconnect in what some (reasonable) Blues fans think of the guy and the offers we always hear the Blues turn down for Jackman.

If Jackman's seen league-wide as a strong young vet who's best on the 2d pairing but is a character guy (he might have looked bad as the Blues #1 d-man, but you can't question the character and leadership it took for what he played through, not in any contract year, mind you, and that at times he looked very solid in that role with those minutes)... if Jackman is seen that way then his contract and cap hit of 3.625M for three more full years is not at all an impediment but is pretty normal... what would you expect to pay for someone fitting the description I just laid out?

So, it boils down to the Rorschach test of how you see Jackman. Some Blues fans, including my season-ticket holding brother, for example, are really down on him. You're down on him, and other reasonable posters are down on him. But a lot of reasonable posters aren't, they think he was forced to play out of his correct role last season by necessity, he did it horribly banged up, and without him doing it the Blues probably don't make the playoffs (you can say that about a lot of Blues players). He's 28, which is a very attractive d-man age to be when under contract. Though, because he's been around as long as any Blue, he seems older.

I think trading Jackman for anything less than a must-have piece is unlikely because of what you indicate, the management group's valuation of the guy. So to a certain extent trading him for the opposite of a must-have piece, a 2d round pick, is a moot issue.

Either way, if Jackman's moved I expect a pretty solid return to be coming the Blues' way. And that could be the case even if you and his other detractors turn out to be correct... it's the perceived value that matters. Which, IMO is way higher than what you're describing.

(IMO, his real value is much higher than you describe as well, but we don't have to agree on that in order to agree on the perceived value part.)

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05-31-2009, 11:37 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
Ah come on,he's gonna be the NYI's top minutes dman in all defensive situations (and a #2 overall).
Tell me - no, tell all of us - that he wouldn't. Tell us who would. Please.

Maybe Hamonic, eh Crew?

Keep pimping your recipe for drek on Long Island. Twenty-five years and counting.

Some Isles fans are addictred to failure and have perfected it.

Bridgeport? Long Island? Same difference...who cares?

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06-01-2009, 06:51 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
Tell me - no, tell all of us - that he wouldn't. Tell us who would. Please.

Maybe Hamonic, eh Crew?

Keep pimping your recipe for drek on Long Island. Twenty-five years and counting.

Some Isles fans are addictred to failure and have perfected it.

Bridgeport? Long Island? Same difference...who cares?
Isles have said that they don't expect to sign big name ufas this summer(not the isles choice but the big name ufas choice).The cap is expected to go down over the next 1-2 seasons.According to the NY press,the isles feel they have enough cap flexibility to take advantage, when other teams are forced to salary dump for cap reasons.With the isles looking for size and toughness,players willing to go hard to the net,I don't see a reason to give up on Joensuu after 1 yr in the ahl.

Your opinion that I want 20 homegrown talents, would carry more weight if I hadn't been on the nyi board yesterday morning trying to sell fans on Hunter/Comeau/Pens 3rd for SJ's Michaelek.

Blues fans have posted that Jackman's coming off a bad season,but hey he's in the nhl while Joensuu's expected to spend a 2nd yr in the AHL.That that must mean the isles should grab Jackman and give him plenty of icetime in all situations.Cause the isles are so much more talented and deeper on D then the Blues, that his defensive lapses won't matter

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06-01-2009, 12:07 PM
  #30
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Trottier, I don't know how long we are going to have this argument. For years, you've been preaching the wisdom of building around vets and trading youth for experience. I, in turn, have preached patient building around a young core of home grown talent.

Your general strategy is basically Milburyism, or maybe even Snow's first year. And, I think we know how all that turned out.

I think the Jackmans of the NHL are great to acquire WHEN YOUR TEAM IS READY. But, Jackman and other useful vets will do nothing until that core is functioning.

Sit back, be patient, and let the kids develop. And, after that happens, then you start to think about spending some of your future on the present.

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06-01-2009, 02:13 PM
  #31
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Trottier, I don't know how long we are going to have this argument. For years, you've been preaching the wisdom of building around vets and trading youth for experience. I, in turn, have preached patient building around a young core of home grown talent.

Your general strategy is basically Milburyism, or maybe even Snow's first year. And, I think we know how all that turned out.

I think the Jackmans of the NHL are great to acquire WHEN YOUR TEAM IS READY. But, Jackman and other useful vets will do nothing until that core is functioning.

Sit back, be patient, and let the kids develop. And, after that happens, then you start to think about spending some of your future on the present.
I fail to see how trading a middling propsect for a 28 year old dman (repeating 28, not 38) fits into the characterization above.

I have bought fully into the patient rebuild approach. Absolutism, however, at any stage of the rebuild is misguided.

That is to say, discarding consideration of any player anywhere near free agency status, or over the age of 22 or coming off a subpar year, or making a respectable salary is short-sighted. As is holding on dearly to every player drafted by the hometeam, for all prospects are not alike.

And I'm silly enough to believe that an essential part of a rebuild is adding talent - by whatever means - at any point in the process.

We can respectfully disagree about Jackman, and the potential greatness of JJ.

But at least you know that I am not advocating a "Milbury" approach, anymore than you and Crew are advocating icing an AHL team on Long Island again next fall.

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06-01-2009, 05:56 PM
  #32
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Just to clarify my global position...

I have not stated an offense then defense build philosophy or any other kind of philosophy other than preaching patience at this time because our asset pool needs this upcoming draft just to become worthy of any attention.

I would be happy with any of the three top prospects coming up in this draft and I don't see too great of a difference between #1 defenseman and #1 center in terms of importance for a hockey club because you NEED both and neither are easily obtained via trade without giving tons of assets up.

OK, now that the off-topic stuff if finished...

My post wasn't against the value of the trade for Jackman, my statement is I'd rather give up assets that are further from NHL ready than Jesse Joensuu and that adding Jackman is not a priority to force trading Joensuu if he was the asking price prior to the draft, prior to the UFA period and even prior to next season starting.

We may disagree about the worthiness of Joensuu but I consider him a guy that may end up getting you 25g/year while picking up garbage left from other players and he's good in the corners and not a bad passer either. The kind of player that can make more room for others on the ice. That's not a guarantee that he will and I understand the benefit of trading for proven quantities over unknown quantities but I also understand the benefit of picking and choosing which unknowns you trade.

While we have Witt AND Sutton under contract I have no desire to add Jackman prior to this upcoming season until we actually have some time to figure out the state of our team. If I'm willing to add 3.6 million on the backend I want to aim for a #1 d-man first with that money allowing Streit to be #2, and guys like Witt, Sutton, Martinek and Gervais to eat up less minutes and fill more specific roles. I also don't think it'll matter for **** if DiPietro isn't ready for next season and we may end up needing money to fill a position back there if we aren't already spending money to solidify some offensive weapons.

And again, that's my full issue. We have so many holes we are going to need prospects to fill some of them. I'm not looking for a homegrown 21 man unit, I'm looking for a wisely produced 21 man unit and wise asset management.

@Trottier - You're welcome to disagree with my wisdom about trading Joensuu (and you may very well be right with that line of thinking) at this time but I think you ended up trying to paint me into a position that I do not have to prove your own position. Most of my posts are simply matter of fact and not inferring much outside of what I state and I'm doubtful my posting history alludes to what you stated in your last post regarding my general line of thinking.

,
Mitch

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06-01-2009, 08:18 PM
  #33
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Gotta agree with Trottier here. Jackman would be a major upgrade and another piece to the puzzle. Why can't he be part of the core?

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06-01-2009, 08:29 PM
  #34
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Gotta agree with Trottier here. Jackman would be a major upgrade and another piece to the puzzle. Why can't he be part of the core?
Well that was my idea!

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06-01-2009, 08:30 PM
  #35
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Well that was my idea!
I agree with it.

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06-01-2009, 09:17 PM
  #36
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I'm not one of the misguided Blues fans who think Jackman (and Brewer and McKee) are rubbish. He's a good defender, good enough for the defensive side of the 2nd pairing on most teams. He's not exactly a rare talent though. Guys like him are available as UFA's pretty commonly, and his 3.6 mil contract isn't really a discount, especially at this time with the recession and dropping cap.
Now perhaps the Isles have some trouble getting UFA's to sign there these days, and would therefore give up a 2nd or something, but I don't see why they'd give much more than that.

On the flip-side, St. Louis would want much more than just a second, because of team chemistry and the 'A' on Jackmans sweater.

Sooo in conclusion, I dont think he's going anywhere.

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06-01-2009, 09:56 PM
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NYI needs bonafide players for 'the now,' Jackman qualifies. The Isles have a crop of young players currently toiling on the roster, why not add an in-his-prime player who can help establish an environment that the younger guys (and possible incoming prospects) can excel in?

This kind of trade does not run counter to a rebuild, given that we are talking a 2nd and middling prospect (which may not be enough value). Granted, if this were the number 1 overall for a top-pairing D man, than I would definitely agree with the anti-rebuild stuff, and Milburyism references.

Chances are, the Isles were going to add a veteran via free agency or trade this offseason anyway.

Rebuilding is a process and requires a balance IMO.

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06-01-2009, 10:02 PM
  #38
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Isles fans,we've read for a while that the 2010-2011 cap will be going down.But now Daly's reportedly saying the 2009-2010 cap could go down also.Maybe by as much as $2.5m.

There are gonna be teams up against the cap.Some quality players could become available as salary dumps from teams up against the cap or just needing to change up their roster for chemistry sake(SJ for example).

Do you guys really want the isles big move to be a struggling Jackman,making $3.5m a yr?I don't.

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06-02-2009, 05:12 AM
  #39
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take Trottier's analysis of islander prospects with a grain of salt

he had Nielsen in the doghouse before last season even started

regarding Jackman --who wouldnt want a guy like that on their team ?

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06-02-2009, 09:18 AM
  #40
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Unless it's a lateral move (a Sutton, Witt, Meyer, Martinek, maybe Hunter) wrapped up with a less promising prospect (Figren, Marcinko) going in return for a Jackman, it just doesn't seem necessary to be picking up 3+ million #4 Dmen in return for futures - especially when there are some UFAs out there who could bring the Isles just as far (or not so far) as a Barrett Jackman.

As for our current system: I believe Joensuu's size + skill package possibly offers the Islanders something they don't otherwise have. He's a little more special than the great majority of our prospects. It may not be this upcoming season, but most competitive teams have a guy with his size and appetite out there creating space and getting in the goalie's face. If there's any chance he can be something like a Hartnell/Holmstrom type, then that's something this team has got to find out.

On the pace we're at, in general, I think either we get overwhelmed in an offer or we should just stick to our guns, especially with respect to our upcoming draft picks.

Trades for late 20 somethings might be best reserved for the late summer if GM Snow simply cannot get what he seeks on the UFA market.

But who knows, maybe there are some young studs/veterans out there that this team really, really likes. Gilbert (EDM) and Johnson (LA) come to mind as possibilities.

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06-02-2009, 11:16 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by CIsle View Post
Unless it's a lateral move (a Sutton, Witt, Meyer, Martinek, maybe Hunter) wrapped up with a less promising prospect (Figren, Marcinko) going in return for a Jackman, it just doesn't seem necessary to be picking up 3+ million #4 Dmen in return for futures - especially when there are some UFAs out there who could bring the Isles just as far (or not so far) as a Barrett Jackman.

As for our current system: I believe Joensuu's size + skill package possibly offers the Islanders something they don't otherwise have. He's a little more special than the great majority of our prospects. It may not be this upcoming season, but most competitive teams have a guy with his size and appetite out there creating space and getting in the goalie's face. If there's any chance he can be something like a Hartnell/Holmstrom type, then that's something this team has got to find out.

On the pace we're at, in general, I think either we get overwhelmed in an offer or we should just stick to our guns, especially with respect to our upcoming draft picks.

Trades for late 20 somethings might be best reserved for the late summer if GM Snow simply cannot get what he seeks on the UFA market.

But who knows, maybe there are some young studs/veterans out there that this team really, really likes. Gilbert (EDM) and Johnson (LA) come to mind as possibilities.
Hunter for Jackman is a lateral move? I don't think you all have been following Jackman all that closely.

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06-02-2009, 12:07 PM
  #42
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Hunter for Jackman is a lateral move? I don't think you all have been following Jackman all that closely.
I don't know what that comment means, but just in case you haven't been following Jackman closely, he posted a -14, an advanced +/- rating of -1.00, worst of all Blues defensemen, (a rating of his +/- compared to his team's +/- per 60 minutes of icetime) and a GVT of +1.5 (a value versus replacement metric, so basically the Blues had a 1.5 better goal differential over the entire season than if he was out all year, whoopdy-do). I would make that trade just to get rid of Jackman's contract (so we could afford someone better) much less upgrade our right wing position for McClement and Steen's line. Jackman has been given his chance to be a top pairing defenseman and has failed miserably.

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06-02-2009, 01:10 PM
  #43
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Trots, I think you're being a bit hard on Jesse. Granted I would take any of the above deals for Jackman without thinking twice. For those saying he regressed and he has a lousy + -, give me a break. He's got lots of experience for his age and stats like that are more reflective of the team as a whole. Plus Minus is a circumstantial stat.

But getting back to the point. I think we can agree that Jesse's footspeed was a lot better than what we were told. He's not a fast skater, that's for sure but he's quick enough that he gets where he needs to be. He's big, can battle and is being acclimated to the system at a nice young age. He only has room for improvement and he might turn out to be a valuable guy to keep around on the third line.

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06-02-2009, 01:17 PM
  #44
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take Trottier's analysis of islander prospects with a grain of salt

he had Nielsen in the doghouse before last season even started
And some Islander fan geniuses now have him as a top-six forward.

Yep, grain of salt....vs. grain of brain matter.

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06-02-2009, 01:23 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by VHC View Post
Trots, I think you're being a bit hard on Jesse. Granted I would take any of the above deals for Jackman without thinking twice. For those saying he regressed and he has a lousy + -, give me a break. He's got lots of experience for his age and stats like that are more reflective of the team as a whole. Plus Minus is a circumstantial stat.

But getting back to the point. I think we can agree that Jesse's footspeed was a lot better than what we were told. He's not a fast skater, that's for sure but he's quick enough that he gets where he needs to be. He's big, can battle and is being acclimated to the system at a nice young age. He only has room for improvement and he might turn out to be a valuable guy to keep around on the third line.
The stats don't bother me that much. I'm more concerned about what I saw when I actually watched him. Put simply, he was not very effective last season. Now, that may simply be an off season for a good player. But, personally, I don't think that is the case. I think Jackman has hit a plateau and don't believe he is ever going to develop beyond the Brendan Witt level of dman.

In all honesty, I think the interest in Jackman among some Isles fans comes from not watching him very closely and assuming that his excellent rookie year was indicative of his current trajectory.

Of course, there is no doubt that he'd be an upgrade over the likes of Sutton and Martinek. But, whether that upgrade would be worth the $ or the potential personnel cost is another issue entirely.

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06-02-2009, 01:25 PM
  #46
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But getting back to the point. I think we can agree that Jesse's footspeed was a lot better than what we were told. He's not a fast skater, that's for sure but he's quick enough that he gets where he needs to be. He's big, can battle and is being acclimated to the system at a nice young age. He only has room for improvement and he might turn out to be a valuable guy to keep around on the third line.
I do not doubt that VHC, and your post is solid.

I have major concerns about NYI's collective lack of speed up front. Other Isles fans pass off skating as overrated, can be compensated, etc. Other Isle fans are dead wrong.

I do not have an issue with JJ, though this thread is testament to my observation that the only thing worse than fanboys overrating thier prospects is fanboys of teams with inferior pipelines overrating their prospects.

Really my issue here is the myopic mindset that simply because Jackman is coming off a subpar year, you do not consider trading for him. That's painfully simplistic, fantasyleaguitis mentalty. It suggest you only trade for players when they are producing at their zenith (and are unattainable ).

I thought such misguided mindset was beneath my Islander brethren. I was wrong, at least in some cases.

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06-02-2009, 01:33 PM
  #47
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Trots, I think you're being a bit hard on Jesse. Granted I would take any of the above deals for Jackman without thinking twice. For those saying he regressed and he has a lousy + -, give me a break. He's got lots of experience for his age and stats like that are more reflective of the team as a whole. Plus Minus is a circumstantial stat.
First of all, he has regressed since he hurt his shoulder on a Todd Bertuzzi hit before the lockout. He still can't do the same things physically as before the injury. He also has had TWO bad seasons in a row. You are also acting like the Blues were a bad team last year. They made the playoffs as the 6th seed, and had the best 2nd half record in the league while Jackman's stats continuously got worse. I didn't just use +/-, I used advanced stats like +/- relative to his team adjusted for icetime and GVT. Jackman and his partner were the only minus defensemen last year.

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06-02-2009, 01:49 PM
  #48
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Please delete this post already!

Islanders are not trading draft picks at this point. Only way they go after a veteran player is through free agency.

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06-02-2009, 01:50 PM
  #49
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Only way they go after a veteran player is through free agency.
Surrrrrrre it is.


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06-02-2009, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by CIsle View Post
Unless it's a lateral move (a Sutton, Witt, Meyer, Martinek, maybe Hunter) wrapped up with a less promising prospect (Figren, Marcinko) going in return for a Jackman, it just doesn't seem necessary to be picking up 3+ million #4 Dmen in return for futures - especially when there are some UFAs out there who could bring the Isles just as far (or not so far) as a Barrett Jackman.

As for our current system: I believe Joensuu's size + skill package possibly offers the Islanders something they don't otherwise have. He's a little more special than the great majority of our prospects. It may not be this upcoming season, but most competitive teams have a guy with his size and appetite out there creating space and getting in the goalie's face. If there's any chance he can be something like a Hartnell/Holmstrom type, then that's something this team has got to find out.

On the pace we're at, in general, I think either we get overwhelmed in an offer or we should just stick to our guns, especially with respect to our upcoming draft picks.

Trades for late 20 somethings might be best reserved for the late summer if GM Snow simply cannot get what he seeks on the UFA market.

But who knows, maybe there are some young studs/veterans out there that this team really, really likes. Gilbert (EDM) and Johnson (LA) come to mind as possibilities.
Good point

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