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Old
06-01-2009, 04:49 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Tikkanen View Post
Then put yourself in Gaborik's shoes
It's simply a gross generalization (not to mention, for reasons I can't, entirely factually incorrect) that players ever simply go to the highest bidder. They don't, and continue to won't. There is a plethora of reasons why people sign in the cities they do, and yes money is a factor, but you're getting paid either way. 100,000 per year or 350,000 per year, while may seem like a lot (500,000 and 1.75m on a five year deal respectively) isn't enough to always sway someone from where they're set on. I promise you as emphatically as I can, Gaborik has told his agent to field all offers, but there's a specific list of teams he'd prefer to play for.

Guys have to not view LA as a retirement destination. That's problem #1. It's why the hockey culture has to change.

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06-01-2009, 05:05 PM
  #102
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I just dont understand why we would give up players we spent all this time developing and have been excited to see in the nhl and are only getting better and better for 2 players.

One of them with a awful contract and the other who has yet to play an NHL game.

Keep the players we have sign a FA and draft a stud at #5 and let these kids grow together.

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06-01-2009, 05:48 PM
  #103
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I am just amazed at how quickly some of the people on here give up on players so fast. JJ was a #3 overall pick in the Crosby draft and is still highly touted by a lot of people in the know to do great things, and after one and a half seasons in LA you're all ready to get rid of him? Wow. Sorry, but the kid's only 22 years old. How many defenseman didn't hit their stride until they were a few years older? Pronger, Greene, Bouwmeester, Chara etc etc. You can't judge a d-man by his first couple years in the NHL. They have such an adjustment they must make from the junior or even AHL ranks to the NHL. And don't give me this crap about he's a "head case" or his dad acts like Lindros' dad and he will be a pain in the butt because guess what? Anyone in their right mind would have taken Lindros on their team any day of the week, and the same goes for Crosby who a lot of people think has a pain in the ass dad. I think if we hang on to JJ he will turn out to be one the greatest Kings defenseman of all time, and he will be a leader in the room and will be a HUGE factor in the Kings winning their first ever Stanley Cup, whenever that may be......

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06-01-2009, 06:38 PM
  #104
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I am just amazed at how quickly some of the people on here give up on players so fast. JJ was a #3 overall pick in the Crosby draft and is still highly touted by a lot of people in the know to do great things, and after one and a half seasons in LA you're all ready to get rid of him? Wow. Sorry, but the kid's only 22 years old. How many defenseman didn't hit their stride until they were a few years older? Pronger, Greene, Bouwmeester, Chara etc etc. You can't judge a d-man by his first couple years in the NHL. They have such an adjustment they must make from the junior or even AHL ranks to the NHL. And don't give me this crap about he's a "head case" or his dad acts like Lindros' dad and he will be a pain in the butt because guess what? Anyone in their right mind would have taken Lindros on their team any day of the week, and the same goes for Crosby who a lot of people think has a pain in the ass dad. I think if we hang on to JJ he will turn out to be one the greatest Kings defenseman of all time, and he will be a leader in the room and will be a HUGE factor in the Kings winning their first ever Stanley Cup, whenever that may be......
You act as if we want to trade him for scrubs.

I'm happy to keep JJ and watch him develop. I like him and see the boatloads of potential.

Not shedding a tear over trading him for a guy like Vinny is hardly giving up on him, its just wanting the better player.

I believe in the d-core, with or without Johnson I think have a bright future there. Offense, not so much.

Trading him for a prospect or something would be ludicrous. But I'll gladly watch him develop on another team if he is key in us acquiring a bona fide superstar.

This would not be so if I had any real faith in our ability to get one of the UFA's, but as much as I like to dream, I don't truly believe that has a chance of coming to pass. I trade I can see happening.

I'd rather KNOW we have Vinny but lose JJ, than have JJ and HOPE Gaborik wants to play here and remains healthy.

If this was NHL '09, I'd keep JJ and sign Hossa and Gaborik to 6 and 3 year deals.

Since this is Dean Lombardi we're talking about though, I'll take Vinny for JJ, a pick and some other stuff that isn't already part of the core every day.

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06-01-2009, 06:43 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tantrum4 View Post
I am just amazed at how quickly some of the people on here give up on players so fast. JJ was a #3 overall pick in the Crosby draft and is still highly touted by a lot of people in the know to do great things, and after one and a half seasons in LA you're all ready to get rid of him? Wow. Sorry, but the kid's only 22 years old. How many defenseman didn't hit their stride until they were a few years older? Pronger, Greene, Bouwmeester, Chara etc etc. You can't judge a d-man by his first couple years in the NHL. They have such an adjustment they must make from the junior or even AHL ranks to the NHL. And don't give me this crap about he's a "head case" or his dad acts like Lindros' dad and he will be a pain in the butt because guess what? Anyone in their right mind would have taken Lindros on their team any day of the week, and the same goes for Crosby who a lot of people think has a pain in the ass dad. I think if we hang on to JJ he will turn out to be one the greatest Kings defenseman of all time, and he will be a leader in the room and will be a HUGE factor in the Kings winning their first ever Stanley Cup, whenever that may be......
You may be right but the problem is his contract is up and he needs a new 1. Apparently, he wants a lot of money with no possible way to back up his demands due to his poor stats across the board. I mean we're not talking about a guy who just hasn't scored goals. He hasn't done ANYTHING. All of his stats are bad, he's not playing offense and he's not playing good defense. He averages a single shot a game. If you're Dean Lombardi who hammers home this play for the team montra, and you seem like you're a Dean believer-then you have to trade him. You dealt Cammy because he only had 1 good year-which is 1 more than Jack Johnson. The precedent has already been set for developing players in the Kings system-if Jack Johnson wants to play here he either takes what Dean offers him or he's gone, it's that simple. And I agree if that's the case. Jack's NHL career has been a disaster up to this point, he should just be happy to have a job.

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06-01-2009, 07:13 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Telos View Post
I think it would be too expensive if we kept all three. Though that would be epic, I think Johnson has to go unless Dean somehow sells Hickey + away, but I don't see Tampa settling for less than Johnson. Imagine

Doughty-Hedman
Hickey-Teubert
Quincey-Greene


That could be one hell of a D-corps.
I just jizzed in my pants.

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06-01-2009, 07:14 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Tikkanen View Post
You may be right but the problem is his contract is up and he needs a new 1. Apparently, he wants a lot of money with no possible way to back up his demands due to his poor stats across the board. I mean we're not talking about a guy who just hasn't scored goals. He hasn't done ANYTHING. All of his stats are bad, he's not playing offense and he's not playing good defense. He averages a single shot a game. If you're Dean Lombardi who hammers home this play for the team montra, and you seem like you're a Dean believer-then you have to trade him. You dealt Cammy because he only had 1 good year-which is 1 more than Jack Johnson. The precedent has already been set for developing players in the Kings system-if Jack Johnson wants to play here he either takes what Dean offers him or he's gone, it's that simple. And I agree if that's the case. Jack's NHL career has been a disaster up to this point, he should just be happy to have a job.

OK I get your point, but where have you seen ANY facts that JJ wants a lot of money? The only place I've seen that is on fan boards and blogs by people who are just regurgitating the rumours they've heard. I have not read ONE single credible source say JJ is looking for big money, a long contract, or anything in between. Until I actually hear JJ or his agent say that, I think DL will re-sign him for what he's worth.


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06-01-2009, 07:20 PM
  #108
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You act as if we want to trade him for scrubs.

I'm happy to keep JJ and watch him develop. I like him and see the boatloads of potential.

Not shedding a tear over trading him for a guy like Vinny is hardly giving up on him, its just wanting the better player.

I believe in the d-core, with or without Johnson I think have a bright future there. Offense, not so much.

Trading him for a prospect or something would be ludicrous. But I'll gladly watch him develop on another team if he is key in us acquiring a bona fide superstar.

This would not be so if I had any real faith in our ability to get one of the UFA's, but as much as I like to dream, I don't truly believe that has a chance of coming to pass. I trade I can see happening.

I'd rather KNOW we have Vinny but lose JJ, than have JJ and HOPE Gaborik wants to play here and remains healthy.

If this was NHL '09, I'd keep JJ and sign Hossa and Gaborik to 6 and 3 year deals.

Since this is Dean Lombardi we're talking about though, I'll take Vinny for JJ, a pick and some other stuff that isn't already part of the core every day.

I didn't mean that you want to trade him for scrubs, I'm just saying that every trade rumour that gets posted weather it's for Vinny, Kovalchuk, draft picks, Spezza, Khabibulin, whatever, Johnson's name ALWAYS comes up as going the other way like he'd be just a throw in to a deal. I would think that if someone wants to pry JJ away from us, THEY are the ones who have to give up a little more, not us. Would you seriously trade Pronger for Lecavailler right now, AND give up a few extra prospects and roster players while you're at it? Not saying JJ is as good as Prongs right now, but he definalty has the potential to be. Next year he might break out and score 40 points. Then everyone will be bashing management for giving up on him too early..I'm glad I'm not the GM of a professional sports team, you can just never win in the eyes of your fans....

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06-01-2009, 07:34 PM
  #109
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Why would Tampa, a team in serious need of defensive help, trade a possible franchise defenseman? If T.B. trades VL I would look for them to leave that city soon after because I think their attendance will drop dramatically and their fan support would also greatly suffer.

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06-01-2009, 07:36 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tantrum4 View Post
OK I get your point, but where have you seen ANY facts that JJ wants a lot of money? The only place I've seen that is on fan boards and blogs by people who are just regurgitating the rumours they've heard. I have not read ONE single credible source say JJ is looking for big money, a long contract, or anything in between. Until I actually hear JJ or his agent say that, I think DL will re-sign him for what he's worth.
I'm of the opinion that even without a Vinny trade Jack won't be in LA anymore. I think Hickey is ready now, he has put up numbers in the minors unlike Jack. He has done what the Kings have asked of him, unlike Jack who refused a minor league rehab assignment. Hickey will take his spot in the lineup and you also have Drewiske who also looks ready for regular NHL minutes. With the Kings needing help scoring and the depth on defense I think Jack can best be used now, due entirely to name recognition only, by trading him for a young, scoring winger. The door is quickly closing on Jack's potential, can the Kings afford to sit and wait for him to follow in Aki Berg's footsteps? Or will he suddenly turn into Phaneuf/Pronger/Stevens? My money is on the first scenario. Cut bait now.

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06-01-2009, 08:40 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by tantrum4 View Post
I didn't mean that you want to trade him for scrubs, I'm just saying that every trade rumour that gets posted weather it's for Vinny, Kovalchuk, draft picks, Spezza, Khabibulin, whatever, Johnson's name ALWAYS comes up as going the other way like he'd be just a throw in to a deal. I would think that if someone wants to pry JJ away from us, THEY are the ones who have to give up a little more, not us. Would you seriously trade Pronger for Lecavailler right now, AND give up a few extra prospects and roster players while you're at it? Not saying JJ is as good as Prongs right now, but he definalty has the potential to be. Next year he might break out and score 40 points. Then everyone will be bashing management for giving up on him too early..I'm glad I'm not the GM of a professional sports team, you can just never win in the eyes of your fans....
Really? I see it as quite the opposite, that JJ is the cornerstone piece in acquiring a an upgrade to the team.

Sure there are a few like Tik that want him gone, but I feel the vast majority of those in favor of any of these trades actually likes Johnson, but recognizes that we could live without him for the right deal.

That said, Tik is right. So far he hasn't done squat, so the whole we'd need to add something to get a Vinny or something is silly. Loads of potential, only glimpses realized after 100+ NHL games.

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06-01-2009, 09:20 PM
  #112
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Not saying JJ is as good as Prongs right now, but he definalty has the potential to be.


Are you honestly, seriously trying to say.....that Jack Johnson "definitely" has Pronger-esque potential?

you sir, are off the deep end. completely and entirely.

I'm not a fan of Chris, but he is a hall of fame defenseman.

No where in Jack's potential or DNA is it written that he has that sort of capability.

Not a chance in hell.

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06-01-2009, 09:31 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by VictoryRose View Post
Are you honestly, seriously trying to say.....that Jack Johnson "definitely" has Pronger-esque potential?

you sir, are off the deep end. completely and entirely.

I'm not a fan of Chris, but he is a hall of fame defenseman.

No where in Jack's potential or DNA is it written that he has that sort of capability.

Not a chance in hell.
Sorry man but he has a lot of untapped potential, you needs some patient pills, he is 22 give him some time and i think he will surprise you, he is our arguably our 2nd best Dman and for being 22 that is pretty good imo. Will he be as good as pronger who knows he has the potential.

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06-01-2009, 09:36 PM
  #114
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Sorry man but he has a lot of untapped potential, you needs some patient pills, he is 22 give him some time and i think he will surprise you, he is our arguably our 2nd best Dman and for being 22 that is pretty good imo. Will he be as good as pronger who knows he has the potential.
Last season I thought JJ was out best defenseman.

Then again our D sucked last season.

I'd say Greene, Doughty and possibly Quincey pushed him down this season though.

His top potential is close to a Pronger I think, but I think realistically he'll end up somewhere between Redden (the good version) and Jovanovski. Nothing to sneeze at. He will eventually put it together, the problem is right now "putting it together" for Johnson merely means becoming effective and not a liability. Once he does that, he can worry about "putting it together" in terms of maximizing his abilities, which are definately high end.

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06-02-2009, 12:07 AM
  #115
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What we need is Milbury to get hired in Tampa.
Then we can get them both for cheap.

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06-02-2009, 08:59 AM
  #116
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Will he be as good as pronger who knows he has the potential.
No, he doesn't.

This is astonishing, really.

He doesn't even have a Pronger-esque game, let alone his top-end projection/potential.

I hate to have to so condescending, but do you realize that potential and ceiling are dynamic things and a players eval pre-draft (when playing against boys/young men) can change dramatically 5 years later after he's had some time to play against men and mature? Potential isn't a static assessment.

If JJ ever turns into anything close to jocop, he's a success at this point. Personally I think he's destined for a Brad Stuart esque career. Maybe Derek Morris. Which is still a damn successful NHL career.

JJ has the potential to be a pretty damn good defensman in the NHL. He does not have the potential to be a generational, franchise ground, HoF defenseman. Sorry, it just isn't happening. If it were, Carolina would have waited one more year.

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06-02-2009, 09:09 AM
  #117
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I'm of the opinion that even without a Vinny trade Jack won't be in LA anymore. I think Hickey is ready now, he has put up numbers in the minors unlike Jack. He has done what the Kings have asked of him, unlike Jack who refused a minor league rehab assignment. Hickey will take his spot in the lineup and you also have Drewiske who also looks ready for regular NHL minutes. With the Kings needing help scoring and the depth on defense I think Jack can best be used now, due entirely to name recognition only, by trading him for a young, scoring winger. The door is quickly closing on Jack's potential, can the Kings afford to sit and wait for him to follow in Aki Berg's footsteps? Or will he suddenly turn into Phaneuf/Pronger/Stevens? My money is on the first scenario. Cut bait now.
This I can probably agree with. That doesn't describe Lecavalier.

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06-02-2009, 10:04 AM
  #118
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I'm of the opinion that even without a Vinny trade Jack won't be in LA anymore. I think Hickey is ready now, he has put up numbers in the minors unlike Jack. He has done what the Kings have asked of him, unlike Jack who refused a minor league rehab assignment. Hickey will take his spot in the lineup and you also have Drewiske who also looks ready for regular NHL minutes. With the Kings needing help scoring and the depth on defense I think Jack can best be used now, due entirely to name recognition only, by trading him for a young, scoring winger. The door is quickly closing on Jack's potential, can the Kings afford to sit and wait for him to follow in Aki Berg's footsteps? Or will he suddenly turn into Phaneuf/Pronger/Stevens? My money is on the first scenario. Cut bait now.
When did Johnson play in the minors in order to compare production with Hickey? How can the door be closing on a 22 year old defensemen who is still highly regarded? Aki Berg? Really?

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06-02-2009, 10:48 AM
  #119
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THIS THREAD SHOULD BE CLOSED FOR THIS REASON:

The Lightning have already made it clear what it would take for them to trade their 1st. They told Toronto it would take Schenn, Kaberle, and their 1st. So are you guys willing to give up you best 2 defensemen and your 1st?

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06-02-2009, 11:11 AM
  #120
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THIS THREAD SHOULD BE CLOSED FOR THIS REASON:

The Lightning have already made it clear what it would take for them to trade their 1st. They told Toronto it would take Schenn, Kaberle, and their 1st. So are you guys willing to give up you best 2 defensemen and your 1st?
I wouldn't trade Doughty for the entire Leafs franchise.

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06-02-2009, 11:15 AM
  #121
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THIS THREAD SHOULD BE CLOSED FOR THIS REASON:

The Lightning have already made it clear what it would take for them to trade their 1st. They told Toronto it would take Schenn, Kaberle, and their 1st. So are you guys willing to give up you best 2 defensemen and your 1st?


I do not doubt what you're saying, but can I see a link to the source on that? If it was posted before, I missed it and am not seeing it now.

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06-02-2009, 11:19 AM
  #122
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I do not doubt what you're saying, but can I see a link to the source on that? If it was posted before, I missed it and am not seeing it now.
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2009/...g_trade_talks/

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06-02-2009, 11:55 AM
  #123
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excellent, thanks.

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06-02-2009, 01:01 PM
  #124
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No, he doesn't.

This is astonishing, really.

He doesn't even have a Pronger-esque game, let alone his top-end projection/potential.

I hate to have to so condescending, but do you realize that potential and ceiling are dynamic things and a players eval pre-draft (when playing against boys/young men) can change dramatically 5 years later after he's had some time to play against men and mature? Potential isn't a static assessment.

If JJ ever turns into anything close to jocop, he's a success at this point. Personally I think he's destined for a Brad Stuart esque career. Maybe Derek Morris. Which is still a damn successful NHL career.

JJ has the potential to be a pretty damn good defensman in the NHL. He does not have the potential to be a generational, franchise ground, HoF defenseman. Sorry, it just isn't happening. If it were, Carolina would have waited one more year.

Sorry to break it to you, but Chris Pronger wasn't that good in his first few years in Hartford. Guess what? They didn't have the patience for a 22 year old defensman and traded him to St Louis for Shanahan. Then guess what? He went on to win the Hart trophy, the Norris trophy, and the Stanley Cup. The Hartford franchise? Gone 2years later.....

If you don't think Johnson can play any better than he has shown so far as a 22 year old, you're sadly mistaken my friend....Johnson will be re-signed and will be a Kings for years to come....

P.S. - Do you think maybe New York and Ottawa are kicking themselves for not having patience with Chara? I'd put money on it......

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06-02-2009, 01:24 PM
  #125
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Sorry to break it to you, but Chris Pronger wasn't that good in his first few years in Hartford. Guess what? They didn't have the patience for a 22 year old defensman and traded him to St Louis for Shanahan. Then guess what? He went on to win the Hart trophy, the Norris trophy, and the Stanley Cup. The Hartford franchise? Gone 2years later.....

If you don't think Johnson can play any better than he has shown so far as a 22 year old, you're sadly mistaken my friend....Johnson will be re-signed and will be a Kings for years to come....

P.S. - Do you think maybe New York and Ottawa are kicking themselves for not having patience with Chara? I'd put money on it......
Honestly I hope we do sign him long term and just draft at #5. The more I look at the potential trades and read everyones points i must say i think sitting back and trying to sign Gab is the way to go. Even if we don't get him i think waiting is the way to go. Its a really tough call though, we are getting close to a crossroad

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