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Who are your finalists for the Hart?

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Old
03-26-2004, 03:45 AM
  #76
s7ark
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starsfan09
You seem to forget that for the 1st 55-60 games this season, the Stars were down around Carolina/Pittsburgh in offense. At one point, they were 28th I believe.....this is when Turco carried the team. Without him, they wouldnt have won nearly as many low scoring, close games as they did during that time. Its all well and good that you bring up those names, but none of them outside of Morrow were doing anything earlier in the year.
Okay, so is there a second half Hart trophy that someone else is going to get? Come on, now. Just because the names I mentioned weren't as prolific in the first half doesn't mean that they were such defensive liabilities that Turco was left alone out there. Sure, maybe Turco means more to Dallas than any of their other players (I would argue that it's not actually the case, but that's not the point). This is Hart voting here. There are far more deserving players who have meant more to their team's performance than Turco.

To help those who don't get out: "slow your roll" means "step back and think about what you're saying and doing before you do it", you dig?... I'm sorry... I mean "do you understand"?

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03-26-2004, 03:54 AM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modano = God
Turco is a legit candidate for the Hart, I have rarely seen a team relying on one particualr player.
And in Dallas I'd argue you haven't seen it since the early days of a prolific Mike Modano. Whoops, that was before Dallas, so those in Dallas have yet to see it. Turco is indeed a legit Hart contender, that I agree with... as long as the list is atleast 10 players long and he is about 9th or 10th. I see where you're coming from. I'm arguing that Ryder is a legit Calder candidate (I'm a Habs fan despite my roommate's avatar), but in his case he deserves top three billling. I'm not deluded (in the manner you guys seem to be) into forgetting that there are Raycrofts out there doing as or more amazing things this year. Atleast Turco had the team he did "underachieving" in front of him as opposed to say an "underachieving" Nashville. Luck and experience (and a decent neutral zone trap) of the team have had as big an impact as Turco, hands down.

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03-26-2004, 04:30 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by rye&ginger
Well the MVP is an individual award to the 'most valueable player to his team'

Its not just who the best player in the NHL is. Those were MY picks, as requested. I dont expect Luongo to win because Florida is a bad team. He is the player ranked top to fit the definition of that award, and I dont think there is debate about that. Maybe Raycroft is the most deserving out of the playoff teams. Where would Boston be without him? Fighting for a playoff sport rather than leading their division most likely.
I completely agree.

Always take the age of the player, amount of injuries to the team, and surrounding team talent into consideration when it comes to MVP voting, don't look solely at the numbers or where his team is in the standings. If L.A. doesn't end up making the playoffs its not going to change my mind that Andy Murray should be a lock as one of the candidates for coach of the year so why should Luongo not be a lock as one of the candidates for the Hart? His team was also in the Top 3 for most man games lost to injury not to mention his team was 1st or 2nd youngest in the league *BEFORE* the injuries piled up yet he kept the Panthers in a close race for the 8th and Final playoff spot *BY HIMSELF*.


Last edited by Crossbar: 03-26-2004 at 04:33 AM.
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Old
03-26-2004, 04:34 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Crossbar
I completely agree.

Always take the age of the player, amount of injuries to the team, and surrounding team talent into consideration when it comes to MVP voting, don't look solely at the numbers or where his team is in the standings. If L.A. doesn't end up making the playoffs its not going to change my mind that Andy Murray should be a lock as one of the candidates for coach of the year so why should Luongo not be a lock as one of the candidates for the Hart? His team was also in the Top 3 for most man games lost to injury not to mention his team was 1st or 2nd youngest in the league *BEFORE* the injuries piled up.
Right on. I especially agree with Luongo being a candidate, but agree that by the same florida token he probably won't win. Murray has done amazing things to keep his club this close to the playoffs. He and Julien have the lead as far as I'm concerned, but that's another thread.

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03-26-2004, 08:05 AM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s7ark
Okay, so is there a second half Hart trophy that someone else is going to get? Come on, now. Just because the names I mentioned weren't as prolific in the first half doesn't mean that they were such defensive liabilities that Turco was left alone out there. Sure, maybe Turco means more to Dallas than any of their other players (I would argue that it's not actually the case, but that's not the point). This is Hart voting here. There are far more deserving players who have meant more to their team's performance than Turco.

To help those who don't get out: "slow your roll" means "step back and think about what you're saying and doing before you do it", you dig?... I'm sorry... I mean "do you understand"?

The names you mentioned for the Hart are all legit. Some of us just think that Turco's name should be added to the list. And I know what "slow your roll" means. I just never thought I would see it as a retort to one of my posts. I didnt think what I said was all that bad of an opinion. Apparently you did.

This just goes to prove my earlier point. For some reason Turco is a very underrated and disrespected player among members of this board. He gets credit from the NHL and most the fans (voted the starter for the West). But people on this board have a very hard time giving this guy any credit. I am not sure what else he has to do. The Dallas fans have been trying to give everyone insight on how he carried the team earlier this year, but nobody seems to really care.

Dallas would be hovering around the bubble right now if not for Turco. Maybe even not on the bubble with how competitive the West is. Yes, we all know that NOW the rest of the Stars are playing well. But when they werent...Turco was there. I could care less if he wins the Hart. I wont have a complaint at all when they announce the winner, because I feel there are many deserving players out there. But atleast admit that his name should be bantered about when discussing Hart nominees. Its like blashemy to do that with some people on here. He is one of the top 10 or so players who could easily be deemed "most valuable to their team".

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03-26-2004, 08:06 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s7ark
I'm arguing that Ryder is a legit Calder candidate (I'm a Habs fan despite my roommate's avatar), but in his case he deserves top three billling. I'm not deluded (in the manner you guys seem to be) into forgetting that there are Raycrofts out there doing as or more amazing things this year.
Gee...now we are all deluded?

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03-26-2004, 08:10 AM
  #82
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Turco - dallas team did not look good at first. turco kept them respectable
St. Louis - should be nominated but hard to give it to him considering they've faced zero adversity this year.
Luongo - probably best goalie this year, but not on a playoff team. giving it to non playoff teams is rare, even though iginla recently got it.
Brodeur - best goalie ever, but his numbers took a hit half way through. was a lock until then to win hart and vezina imo.

hart goes to turco i think

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Old
03-26-2004, 08:21 AM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Higgy4
The names you mentioned for the Hart are all legit. Some of us just think that Turco's name should be added to the list. And I know what "slow your roll" means. I just never thought I would see it as a retort to one of my posts. I didnt think what I said was all that bad of an opinion. Apparently you did.

This just goes to prove my earlier point. For some reason Turco is a very underrated and disrespected player among members of this board. He gets credit from the NHL and most the fans (voted the starter for the West). But people on this board have a very hard time giving this guy any credit. I am not sure what else he has to do. The Dallas fans have been trying to give everyone insight on how he carried the team earlier this year, but nobody seems to really care.

Dallas would be hovering around the bubble right now if not for Turco. Maybe even not on the bubble with how competitive the West is. Yes, we all know that NOW the rest of the Stars are playing well. But when they werent...Turco was there. I could care less if he wins the Hart. I wont have a complaint at all when they announce the winner, because I feel there are many deserving players out there. But atleast admit that his name should be bantered about when discussing Hart nominees. Its like blashemy to do that with some people on here. He is one of the top 10 or so players who could easily be deemed "most valuable to their team".
very well said. Most fans refuse to acknowledge that Turco is the engine of this team and do not even consider him for the Hart just because of all the talent in front of him. There's a reason Tugnutt has played so little, not because he's horrible, but because Turco gives us such a higher chance to win.

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Old
03-26-2004, 10:58 AM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Metamorphosis
St. Louis - should be nominated but hard to give it to him considering they've faced zero adversity this year.

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Old
03-26-2004, 11:16 AM
  #85
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1.Martin St-Louis (heart and soul of the n.1 seeded team in the east,Art Ross winner)

2.Jarome Iginla (Captained his team into the post-season (with help from Kiprusoff), maybe Maurice Richard Trophy winner, again heart and soul of his team)

3.Roberto Luongo (best goaltender this season)


Other candidates: Marty Turco, Jose Theodore, Ilya Kovalchuk (MVP in the first half), Chris Pronger (best defensemen).

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03-26-2004, 11:25 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Metamorphosis
St. Louis - should be nominated but hard to give it to him considering they've faced zero adversity this year.
4-9-2 record in December=zero adversity? WTF?

Marty St. Louis should get the Hart and the reasons are obvious. He only:

- Leads the LEAGUE in points,
- Leads the LEAGUE in assists,
- Leads the LEAGUE in shorthanded goals,
- Leads the LEAGUE in shorthanded points,
- Is 2nd in the League in plus-minus (trailing only OTT D Zdeno Chara),
- Is 4th in the League in goals,
- Leads the Bolts by a HUGE margin in ice time for forwards.

St. Louis has shown that he's equally dangerous on the power play (8G/21A), even strength, and on the penalty kill. And I might also note that Vinny Lecavalier's offensive explosion only occurred AFTER John Tortorella put St. Louis on Lecavalier's line at the start of January, when - not coincidentally - the Bolts' extraordinary 18-game points run started. It's been proven that St. Louis has boosted the production of every line he's been on.

St. Louis is in the running for not just one, but 4 awards, for crying out loud - the Hart, Ross, Richard and Selke. All this in spite of the fact that he's one of the smallest players in the league.

What else does he have to do, people - strap on the pads and tend goal???

Sheesh.

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Old
03-26-2004, 11:30 AM
  #87
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The St.Louis for Selke is pathetic, just because he's also an offensive force on the PK doesn't make him a defensive stalwart. There's no player in the league that can be a serious Selke threat when he's scoring points over a ppg clip. There have only been a few over the recent years, being Fedorov, Modano and Yzerman. St.Louis' defensive skills are not, and should not, be talked about in the same sentence as those.

He's also one of many offensive weapons on the Bolts, its not like he's the only forward that is producing like say Iginla on the Flames.

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03-26-2004, 12:02 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulin Wall
4-9-2 record in December=zero adversity? WTF?

Marty St. Louis should get the Hart and the reasons are obvious. He only:

- Leads the LEAGUE in points,
- Leads the LEAGUE in assists,
- Leads the LEAGUE in shorthanded goals,
- Leads the LEAGUE in shorthanded points,
- Is 2nd in the League in plus-minus (trailing only OTT D Zdeno Chara),
- Is 4th in the League in goals,
- Leads the Bolts by a HUGE margin in ice time for forwards.

St. Louis has shown that he's equally dangerous on the power play (8G/21A), even strength, and on the penalty kill. And I might also note that Vinny Lecavalier's offensive explosion only occurred AFTER John Tortorella put St. Louis on Lecavalier's line at the start of January, when - not coincidentally - the Bolts' extraordinary 18-game points run started. It's been proven that St. Louis has boosted the production of every line he's been on.

St. Louis is in the running for not just one, but 4 awards, for crying out loud - the Hart, Ross, Richard and Selke. All this in spite of the fact that he's one of the smallest players in the league.

What else does he have to do, people - strap on the pads and tend goal???

Sheesh.

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I heard some announcers talking about how he might be up for the Lady Byng award too

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03-26-2004, 12:14 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modano = God
Most fans refuse to acknowledge that Turco is the engine of this team and do not even consider him for the Hart just because of all the talent in front of him.
You mean, just as you (and others) do with Martin St. Louis???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Modano = God
He's also one of many offensive weapons on the Bolts...
Pot. Kettle. Black.

Seriously, I've watched this Lightning team since Day 1 of the regular season and I can tell you without a doubt that the Bolts wouldn't be anywhere close to leading the East without not only the offensive, but DEFENSIVE LEADERSHIP of St. Louis. You don't end up #2 in the League in plus-minus by playing poorly in your own end, so yes, he IS a legitimate Selke candidate in my book.

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03-26-2004, 12:38 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Owen Wilson
I heard some announcers talking about how he might be up for the Lady Byng award too
Owen, I saw he was listed amongst the Byng candidates (so is teammate Brad Richards, BTW), but to be honest, I didn't list it because I wouldn't wish the Byng on my worst enemy. To me, the Byng's the equivalent of the "nice guy" award. And you know where nice guys finish (other than Wayne Gretzky, of course...)

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03-26-2004, 01:53 PM
  #91
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St. Louis - The few games i have seen the Bolts play, St. Louis is the fire of the team. Zippy and creative. A sparkplug. He gets help, but all great teams have to have more than one star.

Luongo - The only goalie in the league that has carried his team. Almost every win Florida has is due to him outplaying their opponent's netminder.

Sakic - Proven leader on a team that has been up and down with key injuries. Sakic is producing offensively too.

Honorable Mentions:
Sundin - The only player on the Leafs that has maintained any consistency. This guy gets overlooked every year.

Elias - Without him the Devils would have fallen out of the playoffs this season.

Nabakov - if Turco and Brodeur are considered, then he should be also.

Forsberg - he changes the Avs from being in the playoffs to being favored in the playoffs.


Last edited by AGraveOne: 03-26-2004 at 02:18 PM.
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03-26-2004, 02:05 PM
  #92
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My Finalists: St. Louis, Sakic and Turco

(Honorable mention: Luongo, Kovalchuk and Brodeur)

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03-26-2004, 02:51 PM
  #93
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St Louis
Iggy
Luongo

HM to Theodore, Turco & Kipper

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Old
03-27-2004, 01:42 AM
  #94
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St. Louis is on fire, but he is playing with Richards, Lecavelier, and Stillman. Those 4 players are running the show this year. I think it would suffice if Martin won the Art Ross, as I tend to disagree with Art Ross winners getting the Hart unless they're Mario or Wayne. Or, if there really was no one else producing on the team. Rarely does a player win the Art Ross without either someone else putting in lots of goals or making lots of nice passes.

I'm leaning more and more toward Luongo, Kovalchuk or Elias. If Florida was in the playoffs, it'd be a no brainer. HM to the Theodores, and maybe Tkachuk (if St.Louis makes the playoffs).

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03-27-2004, 12:23 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modano = God
The St.Louis for Selke is pathetic, just because he's also an offensive force on the PK doesn't make him a defensive stalwart. There's no player in the league that can be a serious Selke threat when he's scoring points over a ppg clip. There have only been a few over the recent years, being Fedorov, Modano and Yzerman. St.Louis' defensive skills are not, and should not, be talked about in the same sentence as those.
*Note: I am not lobbying for St. Louis to win the selke, because I believe Draper is a more worthy Candidate.

Sorry for jumping off topic, but St Louis the best defensive forward on the team, and one of the best in the league this year. Not only because he scores shorties, but because he is the best forechecker on the team. When defending the pointmen on the PK, sometimes he makes his reach seem like Dave Andreychuk's. Since you are a Stars fan, I gather you don't watch too many Lightning games. You may think that most of his SHGs come from outlet passes from his linemate, Modin. While he scored many off of his passes, most of them were a result of quick and effective stick-checks on PP defensemen and intercepted cross-ice passes that resulted in breakaways. He created offensive chances with strong defense. He even creates even-strength chances from his great defensive ability. One goal he scored against the Rangers this year was from stripping Dale Purinton of the puck in the Offensive zone and coming in on a breakaway. Thursday against New Jersey, He took the puck from Colin White in front of Brodeur, hitting the post on the ensuing. These are just two examples from two different games. He's been playing like this the entire year. Sure, he's no Modano, Maltby, or Fedorov, but St. Louis is a more worthy candidate than the afore mentioned.

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03-27-2004, 03:05 PM
  #96
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Its a two horse race in St. Louis and Turco. St. Louis has led the Lightning since January on their run to the top of the East and a tie for top of the league. He sparked a strong 2nd half from Vincent Lecavalier. When St. Louis started to get going, guys like Richards, Modin, Boyle, etc. started to break out of their slumps and really get going. The Lightning needed a spark to get going and St. Louis has been it. Turco has been the reason the Stars are anywhere near the playoffs. With the losses of Hatcher and Sydor, the Stars defense changed a lot since those guys had been there for so long. Hatcher especially since he was an intimidating force back there. Modano and Lehtinen have been in terrible slumps this year and havent been carrying the offense like they have should. Turco has been keeping the Dallas Stars afloat even on a broken toe or foot (cant remember which one I've heard about.) The Stars have gone through some struggles and Turco has carried them through and led them to a race with the Sharks for the Pacific. Without these guysm neither team breaks out of their horrible first half starts and is nowhere near where they are right now.

Honorable mention:
Sakic (Helped the Avs through injuries, but hard to give it to him with all the support around him and Tanguay has carried the team more IMO)
Theodore (Bounced back to carry Habs into the Playoffs)
Iginla (Carried the Flames offense, Kiprusoff is the MVP of that team though)
Elias (Like Iginla, he carries a punchless Jersey offense, has had several GWGs this season)
Luongo(Should get some votes, but he doesnt really warrant any, sure he has all those saves and that sv% but this team would still be out of the playoffs without him just with a higher draft pick)

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03-27-2004, 03:13 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockeyfan02
Its a two horse race in St. Louis and Turco. St. Louis has led the Lightning since January on their run to the top of the East and a tie for top of the league. He sparked a strong 2nd half from Vincent Lecavalier. When St. Louis started to get going, guys like Richards, Modin, Boyle, etc. started to break out of their slumps and really get going. The Lightning needed a spark to get going and St. Louis has been it. Turco has been the reason the Stars are anywhere near the playoffs. With the losses of Hatcher and Sydor, the Stars defense changed a lot since those guys had been there for so long. Hatcher especially since he was an intimidating force back there. Modano and Lehtinen have been in terrible slumps this year and havent been carrying the offense like they have should. Turco has been keeping the Dallas Stars afloat even on a broken toe or foot (cant remember which one I've heard about.) The Stars have gone through some struggles and Turco has carried them through and led them to a race with the Sharks for the Pacific. Without these guysm neither team breaks out of their horrible first half starts and is nowhere near where they are right now.

Honorable mention:
Sakic (Helped the Avs through injuries, but hard to give it to him with all the support around him and Tanguay has carried the team more IMO)
Theodore (Bounced back to carry Habs into the Playoffs)
Iginla (Carried the Flames offense, Kiprusoff is the MVP of that team though)
Elias (Like Iginla, he carries a punchless Jersey offense, has had several GWGs this season)
Luongo(Should get some votes, but he doesnt really warrant any, sure he has all those saves and that sv% but this team would still be out of the playoffs without him just with a higher draft pick)
Turco and the Stars were 3 games above .500 when the rest of his team was struggling. I really don't see that as carrying the team any different than what Brodeur has done (with the loss of Stevens and Rafalski). I'd take the Stars defense in the first half of the season over the Devils defense after the injuries. Two similar teams in similar situations it seems that Brodeur gets less respect by HF posters than Turco does in this thread.

EDIT:And the Devils are still in the race to win the Atlantic. They're 4 points behind with a game in hand.

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03-27-2004, 03:15 PM
  #98
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I have five candidates.

1. St. Louis
2. Iginla
3. Turco
4. Theodore
5. Naslund

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03-27-2004, 03:23 PM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haakon84
Turco and the Stars were 3 games above .500 when the rest of his team was struggling.
What are you talking about? The Stars struggled from the gap and didn't start clicking when Turco went on a tear. Of all playoff teams, no player has led his team the way Turco has, I honestly believe this team would be at .500 if it wasn't for him. Turco has carried a Hatcherless, a Sydorless and pretty much Modano/Lehtinen-less team for about 5 straight months. There's no one enjoying career seasons, he gets minimal support and has won the most one goal games over the past 2 seasons.

And FYI, the Stars defense ranked last in +/- and points scored in the first 30 games. I can't imagine the Devs D being much worse than that, to be honest.

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03-27-2004, 03:26 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modano = God
What are you talking about? The Stars struggled from the gap and didn't start clicking when Turco went on a tear. Of all playoff teams, no player has led his team the way Turco has, I honestly believe this team would be at .500 if it wasn't for him. Turco has carried a Hatcherless, a Sydorless and pretty much Modano/Lehtinen-less team for about 5 straight months. There's no one enjoying career seasons, he gets minimal support and has won the most one goal games over the past 2 seasons.

And FYI, the Stars defense ranked last in +/- and points scored in the first 30 games. I can't imagine the Devs D being much worse than that, to be honest.
Very good point. Turco in my opinion is way underrated. Turco has been the best goaly in the NHL for the last few years without any question.

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