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Chicago - St. Lous

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Old
06-01-2009, 07:00 PM
  #1
Crazy_Ike
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Chicago - St. Lous

Here's attempt two since Blues fans indicated that even with fair value the Blues would never take on Campbell's contract.

Option 1

To St. Louis:

Versteeg
Sopel (cap reasons require this)
Aliu (to make up for taking Sopel and get him away from Beach)

To Chicago:

Jackman

Option 2

To St. Louis:

Barker (he may price himself out of Chicago's reach)
Aliu (again, get him away from Beach)

To Chicago:

Jackman
Warsofsky (Chicago's defensive cupboard is bare thanks to all the promotions to the big club)

The key for Chicago is to get someone who can stabilize their back end after the top pairing, as Campbell sure the fark isn't going to do it, Barker is making a lot of youth-related defensive mistakes, as is Hjalmarsson, and Walker makes pylons look mobile and responsible in comparison.

But I don't know what St. Louis wants, needs, or even if they'd be willing to give Jackman up. Plus, the guy loves dogs and I am down with that.

Fair or no?

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06-01-2009, 07:03 PM
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Just remember that Versteeg is a rookie of the year finalist (i know he's not going to win). And Barker is starting to show why he was a third overall pick.

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06-01-2009, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by lfchockey View Post
Just remember that Versteeg is a rookie of the year finalist (i know he's not going to win). And Barker is starting to show why he was a third overall pick.
Jackman isn't one eight as good as you make him to be. Chicago wouldn't trade Barker for Jackman in a million years.

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06-01-2009, 07:09 PM
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Crazy_Ike
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Quality for quality. St. Louis isn't going to take garbage for a player like Jackman. Barker is showing his promise, and Versteeg is up (but yeah, won't win) for Calder, but Jackman WON the Calder. He is not as good as he was in the dead puck era but he is still very good defensively and is TOUGH, something the Hawks need more of.

I am a Hawks fan, after all. I defended Barker in his lean time last year and I like Versteeg too, best trade Tallon made. But Jackman would help the Hawks more than either.

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06-01-2009, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Crazy_Ike View Post
Quality for quality. St. Louis isn't going to take garbage for a player like Jackman. Barker is showing his promise, and Versteeg is up (but yeah, won't win) for Calder, but Jackman WON the Calder. He is not as good as he was in the dead puck era but he is still very good defensively and is TOUGH, something the Hawks need more of.

I am a Hawks fan, after all. I defended Barker in his lean time last year and I like Versteeg too, best trade Tallon made. But Jackman would help the Hawks more than either.
Barker and Versteeg both have 3 times the value of Jackman IMO

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06-01-2009, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by youarentobjective View Post
Jackman isn't one eight as good as you make him to be. Chicago wouldn't trade Barker for Jackman in a million years.


He's a Blackhawks fan, he sees enough of Jackman to know what kind of player he is.

Ignoring the fact that the Blues would never trade Jackman to a division rival(and may be apprehensive to deal with the Hawks at all), I think the Blues would probably bite on one of those deals.

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06-01-2009, 07:41 PM
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Also could someone explain or link me to this Aliu/Beach conflict?

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Old
06-01-2009, 07:51 PM
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I think both could be good trades for both sides. Barker really intrigues me. McKee could back him up fairly well and I would hope he at least picks up on some of McKee's defensive awareness. I'd hate facing Jackman six times a year though.

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06-01-2009, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by lfchockey View Post
Just remember that Versteeg is a rookie of the year finalist (i know he's not going to win). And Barker is starting to show why he was a third overall pick.
You know who else was a rookie of the year candidate? Jackman, and he won.

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06-01-2009, 09:10 PM
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You know who else was a rookie of the year candidate? Jackman, and he won.
Jackman has regressed not progressed in his career. He hasn't been the same player since his shoulder injury. It sucks because I loved watching him back in the day. The past few seasons he's been getting caught standing around or getting out of position.

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06-01-2009, 09:36 PM
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There is a split on the value of Jackman.

However, I think we could all agree that Blues mgmt values him much more in the camp of the OP than the Jackman detractors, so that's the realistic context in which we work any deals for him.

Also, the Blues would almost certainly never trade Jackman in their own division especially to the archrival Hawks on their own youth-fueled resurgence (guaranteeing head to head competition for awhile again), so this is one of those that even if it worked out perfectly on paper would almost never happen.

That aside, I wonder if Versteeg is the caliber of young established roster forward Anaheim would take in the other three-way trade I have been trying to put together involving Pronger and Jackman.

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06-01-2009, 09:45 PM
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Jackman??? Did he even play this season?

These proposals are crap. Chicago gets hosed big time in both.

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06-01-2009, 09:56 PM
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kyle evs48
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Barker > Jackman

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06-01-2009, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Biggzy View Post
Jackman??? Did he even play this season?

These proposals are crap. Chicago gets hosed big time in both.
Yeah, Jackman actually held down an injury depleted blueline while wracked with injuries including a torn MCL and other ailments that he played through, and as the Blues most minutes-playing D-man helped the Blues make their historic 15th-to-6th playoff run. By the end of the season he was hobbling down stairs, could walk only with serious pain, and yet playing the most minutes on the team. In his emergency role as Blues #1 d-man, some nights he looked great and others not so much. Blues management thinks the guy is full of character and that without him the Blues wouldn't have made the playoffs. They turn down offers involving him all the time, and have for a decade. Whether you like him or not, those are facts.

So, yeah, he did play.

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Old
06-02-2009, 01:04 AM
  #15
rumrokh
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Originally Posted by Biggzy View Post
Jackman??? Did he even play this season?

These proposals are crap. Chicago gets hosed big time in both.
Top minutes on the team with the seventh fewest shots in the league. The Blues are an above average defensive team and Jackman is a big reason for that. Don't let the plus-minus for him and Polak fool you. They drew the hardest assignments every night and performed admirably for a rookie and a 3rd defenseman with a torn MCL.

Jackman's not flashy, but he's a lot better than he gets credit for.

I have no opinion on the proposals, but nonsense like "did he even play this season?" doesn't exactly prop up your opinion on the issue very well.

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06-02-2009, 01:28 AM
  #16
Chandrashekhar Limit
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IMO, in both of those cases, atleast a 2009 first would have to go back to Chicago to make these deals close in value.

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06-02-2009, 10:42 AM
  #17
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would chi town be into a deal involving say Campbell Versteeg for a steady Dman like Mitchell n possibly some of assets?

i know chi wants the big money contract outta the way of signing Kane Toews.
Van needs a #1 dman, Versteeg could be that sniper needed for the twins to have a finisher.

chi was looking for a vet shut down guy.

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Old
06-02-2009, 12:12 PM
  #18
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JD/Pleau,

Please make one of those deals happen! It strengthens us and hurts a division opponent at the same time. That's all I'll ask for my birthday, just make it happen.

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Old
06-02-2009, 12:22 PM
  #19
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Originally Posted by rumrokh View Post
Top minutes on the team with the seventh fewest shots in the league. The Blues are an above average defensive team and Jackman is a big reason for that. Don't let the plus-minus for him and Polak fool you. They drew the hardest assignments every night and performed admirably for a rookie and a 3rd defenseman with a torn MCL.

Jackman's not flashy, but he's a lot better than he gets credit for.

I have no opinion on the proposals, but nonsense like "did he even play this season?" doesn't exactly prop up your opinion on the issue very well.
Even when you factor in strength of teammates and opponents, Jackman was STATISTICALLY the WORST Blues defenseman last season by such advanced metrics as advanced +/- and goals versus threshold (GVT). He was well on his way to that title BEFORE he got hurt, but he certainly was even worse after the injury. Let's not forget that other Blues (McKee) had similar injuries that did not severely affect the level of their play.

The Blues were an average to slightly below average defensive team, and one of the worst defensively to make the playoffs. Jackman was on the ice by far for the most goals against (I believe he was in the top 5 for on ice percentage for goals allowed), even at even strength.

At his current salary and level of play, Jackman is a negative asset.

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Old
06-02-2009, 12:38 PM
  #20
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Originally Posted by Crazy_Ike View Post
Here's attempt two since Blues fans indicated that even with fair value the Blues would never take on Campbell's contract.

...

Fair or no?
Horrible, absolutely horrible.

You want a stabilizing influence, bring Hendry up.

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Old
06-02-2009, 01:55 PM
  #21
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Originally Posted by jmwc95 View Post
The Blues were an average to slightly below average defensive team, and one of the worst defensively to make the playoffs.
This is plainly not true. Statistically, they were better than most teams in shots against (seventh best). And goals against (twelfth best), despite having 29 of their games played by a goalie with 88.5% save percentage.

The Blues were 3rd in the entire league in penalty kill despite being 10th in number of times shorthanded. The two teams with better penalty killing percentage were 19th (NYR) and 30th (Minnesota). The Blues were also 8th worst in penalties taken. So it's not like their PK was good because of fewer penalties or minutes on the kill.

I agree that Jackman gets caught standing around and out of position too much. He's NOT a #1 defenseman. I can't think of a single second-pairing guy in the entire league who wouldn't be over-exposed when forced into the #1 role on a team clawing for playoff life.

The reason for all of the goals against while Jackman is on the ice is not because of his screw-ups. Every other defenseman on the team made plenty of mistakes. The difference is the firepower of the matchups and the total time on ice. Put Jackman against lower lines and give him a couple fewer minutes per game and you'd realize his true value. Nobody else on the team could have stepped into #1 and done as well as Jax did.

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Old
06-02-2009, 03:13 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy_Ike View Post
Here's attempt two since Blues fans indicated that even with fair value the Blues would never take on Campbell's contract.

Option 1

To St. Louis:

Versteeg
Sopel (cap reasons require this)
Aliu (to make up for taking Sopel and get him away from Beach)

To Chicago:

Jackman

Option 2

To St. Louis:

Barker (he may price himself out of Chicago's reach)
Aliu (again, get him away from Beach)

To Chicago:

Jackman
Warsofsky (Chicago's defensive cupboard is bare thanks to all the promotions to the big club)

The key for Chicago is to get someone who can stabilize their back end after the top pairing, as Campbell sure the fark isn't going to do it, Barker is making a lot of youth-related defensive mistakes, as is Hjalmarsson, and Walker makes pylons look mobile and responsible in comparison.

But I don't know what St. Louis wants, needs, or even if they'd be willing to give Jackman up. Plus, the guy loves dogs and I am down with that.

Fair or no?


Horrid!

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06-02-2009, 04:20 PM
  #23
Crazy_Ike
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Originally Posted by massivegoonery View Post
Horrible, absolutely horrible.

You want a stabilizing influence, bring Hendry up.
Non-NHL defensemen do not stabilize anything. Don't fall into the trap of overvaluing hometown players.

There are very wide differences in opinions of whether or not Jackman is what he used to be. Even Blues fans obviously don't have any consensus on it. The Jackman I remember would be worth those players in a heartbeat. Toughness, character, grit, leadership, and defensively responsible, packaged in a top four defenseman skillset? The Hawks died partly because they didn't have enough of that. For all of Barker's offensive instincts, he has so far to go in the defensive side of things that his contribution is pretty much a wash until he learns it... IF he learns it, as he seems to be developing along the same lines as McCabe, and I'm not sure I want to wait until his mid-30s for him to stop making stupid mistakes. Or Versteeg, good player, currently no real place for him, not tough nor defensively adept (though not bad either).

But, maybe Jackman is not capable of returning to the player he was. He has had a ton of injuries, for one thing. But if he is, I make no apologies for this proposal at all.

"Horrid" would describe your obsession with acquiring gutless Russians, BWC.


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Old
06-02-2009, 04:29 PM
  #24
embracedbias
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Jackman is getting a lot of attention. Amazing the contrast between his value in this thread and in the Islander/Blues one... http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=646888

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Old
06-02-2009, 05:08 PM
  #25
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Uh, no on everything.

Jackman is washed up. Aliu has no trade value considering hes a loser, and the best player in any proposal, Barker is getting ready to get a 3.5 million dollar tender soon, why would the Hawks trade a core player for nothing?

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