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Expressen: Sedins ask for $63 million over 12 years each - Sedin Contract Talks Here

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Old
06-15-2009, 03:32 PM
  #401
Tiranis
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Originally Posted by LostMyGlasses View Post
[/b] If it brings us a style more conducive to winning in the playoffs, then there is no argument as to which line is better.
I'm so damn jealous of those Kings winning the Stanley Cup.

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06-15-2009, 03:34 PM
  #402
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Originally Posted by topheavyhookjaw View Post
[/B]

You're right, the LA model is the way to go.

What on earth has Frolov or Kopitar shown that makes them the kind of guys you win with? Seriously, I agree Dustin Brown is a kind of player we need, but what on earth makes you think Alex effing Frolov plays a style more conducive to playoff hockey than Daniel Sedin.
You're right, but my arguments been a bit misrepresented because I wasn't clear.

My point isn't LA's line would definitely better in the playoffs, Im saying any line which seems better suited for the playoffs than the Sedins are obviously the best option. LA's first line, as you stated, probably isn't.

However, the poster who I am taking beef with is attempting to argue that the Sedins are one of the top lines in the NHL based on points alone, which I find to be absolute garbage. The best lines are the ones that get it done in the playoffs, and the Sedins, for the most part, other than a laughter of a series against St Louis, haven't.

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06-15-2009, 03:37 PM
  #403
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I decided to post that poll, I voted "Top 10" - http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=651381

Please read the post, there's some interesting stats there. Such as the fact that they are each +23.

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06-15-2009, 03:38 PM
  #404
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
I'm so damn jealous of those Kings winning the Stanley Cup.
What part of the word


IF

do you not understand?

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06-15-2009, 03:41 PM
  #405
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Originally Posted by LostMyGlasses View Post
However, the poster who I am taking beef with is attempting to argue that the Sedins are one of the top lines in the NHL based on points alone, which I find to be absolute garbage. The best lines are the ones that get it done in the playoffs, and the Sedins, for the most part, other than a laughter of a series against St Louis, haven't.
Look, Datsyuk didn't get it done in playoffs either. He had his second, third, and FOURTH line step-up. We didn't have that. What did Kesler accomplish, what did Bernier accomplish, etc.? Ultimately, the whole team failed, not just the Sedins.

I'm saying they're easily a Top 10 line and I have yet to see you present me with the lines that are better than them, aside from top two lines of Pitts/Det + Ovechkin.

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06-15-2009, 03:41 PM
  #406
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Originally Posted by Diamonddog01 View Post
Well we'll have to agree to disagree. Lupul has certainly regressed, but Hartnell had 60 points this past year and brings a physicality to that line that helps Philly win hockey games.
I like Hartnell a lot, and he brings a lot of the same stuff Burrows brings (at more than twice the price) and Lupul is an awful lot worse than Daniel. Carter is a great goal scorer but he's held Lupul back not made him better. That line benefits tremendously from having two other lines with first line centers on them.


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Look at the rest of LA and Colorado when you factor in those teams' records - you would honestly take Sedin - Sedin - Burrows over Brown - Kopitar - Frolov?
Here's the thing, I think Kopitar is a great center, but a) those three aren't usually a line, Brown played on the second line with Stoll a lot and b) you're talking about winning, that's the crux of your argument. You don't let Sedin apologists argue that we need a better second line, so you can't play both ways. I'd rather have Brown/Kopitar/Frolov because they're younger with more upside at this point, but they aren't better. They might be in 5 years (probably will be) but they've never made the playoffs to date, and only Kopitar has ever produced at a PPG pace, and other than Brown they bring no extra intangibles to the twins.

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As they should be, those contracts are absolutely horrible. They shouldn't be paid a cent over Getzlaf, Zetterberg, Carter or other players who are better than they are either.
UFA vs RFA makes a big difference, of course Carter and Getzlaf got less, look at when the contracts were signed and the circumstances. Carter was coming off of a 50 point season, and Getzlaf off of a 70 point season and both were RFAs, meaning they don't get to test the market like a UFA.

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Look - I wouldn't mind seeing them back (although I wouldn't be particularly enthused, as I think we should improve our team speed and try to land a gamebreaking forward), but not at a cent over 4.5 million.
You won't get them at 4.5, and thats fine, but how on earth are their points so devalued that they are only worth 4.5 to you? 60 point players who bring nothing else to the table get more than that, like Alex Kovalev. FFS, thats a whopping 250k over Joffrey Lupul! I'm not in favour of paying them a penny over 6 each, and thats only if the deal is shorter term, longer term, 5.5 or so. But you can't honestly think they are worth only 4.5 million to this team. I agree with improving team speed, but as far as I'm concerned I'll improve it with the replaceable parts, upgrading Wellwood/Pyatt/O'Brien/Demitra/Hordichuk/Ohlund not with the parts that will be very difficult to replace.

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06-15-2009, 03:51 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by Diamonddog01 View Post
And that's why you are a Canuck homer who is out of touch with reality.
Sooo true.

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06-15-2009, 03:51 PM
  #408
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Originally Posted by LostMyGlasses View Post
You're right, but my arguments been a bit misrepresented because I wasn't clear.

My point isn't LA's line would definitely better in the playoffs, Im saying any line which seems better suited for the playoffs than the Sedins are obviously the best option. LA's first line, as you stated, probably isn't.

However, the poster who I am taking beef with is attempting to argue that the Sedins are one of the top lines in the NHL based on points alone, which I find to be absolute garbage. The best lines are the ones that get it done in the playoffs, and the Sedins, for the most part, other than a laughter of a series against St Louis, haven't.
I agree with you about 90% here.

I would add to your point, that as far as I'm concerned, only 2 lines really got it done in the playoffs, Malkins and Crosbys. Detroits top 2 did to a degree as well.

Grass is always greener right, but the truth is, very few lines stepped up in every series they were in, and thats not an excuse, but any year you don't win the cup or at least make the final, odds are your line didn't step up. And I think that people here will be disappointed to find out that many of the guys they lust after for our roster, did the same vanishing act, Eric Staal was great for one series, but didn't bring much after that, Mike Richards, Jeff Carter were not contributing much for Philly, Iginla, Thornton, Marleau. Zajac and Parise were good, but couldn't get it done in the big games. Every team that didn't win (except for maybe the Ducks/Wings) are looking at their rosters and going "why didn't these guys get it done in the playoffs?"(except the ducks are asking why they couldn't do it in the regular season). Guys who are good enough to lead teams to cups are few and far between, and I don't see any out there right now. Vinny might be available, but thats probably it. As far as forwards go, the UFA market is full of people about as accomplished as Daniel and Henrik. Adding Niedermayer to the backend is the exception.

All I'm saying is that there is no proven way to win in the playoffs above all others, and to simply write off the twins on that premise is poor management, simply because there are so few who have won in the playoffs, and even fewer who don't disappear at all in the playoffs. This isn't a defense of the Sedins poor play, rather an acknowledgment that virtually every player not on the Pittsburgh Penguins this year, wasn't good enough in the playoffs.

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06-15-2009, 03:56 PM
  #409
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Meh, I give up. Ultimately, I'm about as far from homer as I can get. I just prefer to look at players objectively, regardless of whether their style of play entertains me greatly or not. But if I'm so off, why has none of you shown me the 10-20 lines that are better than the Sedins?

Or shown me a line, that we can reasonably create and ice that will get more done than they have.

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06-15-2009, 04:07 PM
  #410
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Originally Posted by Diamonddog01 View Post
And how many lines in the NHL have three legitimate PPG players?

Cagarys first line? Cammalleri, Jokinen, Iginla are all legitimate PPG players.

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06-15-2009, 04:08 PM
  #411
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Meh, I give up. Ultimately, I'm about as far from homer as I can get. I just prefer to look at players objectively, regardless of whether their style of play entertains me greatly or not. But if I'm so off, why has none of you shown me the 10-20 lines that are better than the Sedins?
Here's 15 (I'm a Sedin fan BTW)

Crosbys
Malkins
Ovechkins
Datsyuks
Zetterbergs
(nothing contentious so far)
Philly (Gagne-Richards-Briere/Giroux/Knuble)
Ottawa (Heatley-Spezza-Alfredsson)
Anaheim (Ryan-Getzlaf-Perry)
San Jose (Marleau-Thornton-Setogouchi)
Tampa (St. Louis - Lecavalier-Prospa)
(these 5 I think are pretty much all agreed better than the twins + burrows)
Boston (Lucic-Savard-Kessel)
Chicago (Kane-Toews-Sharp)
New Jersey (Parise-Zajac-Langenbrunner)
Calgary (Iginla-Langkow-Cammalleri)
Carolina (Whitney-Staal-Larose)
(these last 5 are very much open for debate)

My point would be the Sedins slide in anywhere from 12-20 in terms of first lines, IMO. They aren't the cream of the crop, but they are about the middle in terms of first lines. The saddest part is that two teams have two of those lines. But realistically depending on preferences in terms of style of play and such, they could slot in near #10, or as low as #20, and that will always be the case. I think they're better than Diamonddog does, but some of your posts indicate you think they're in that top 5 group, which I think is nuts.

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06-15-2009, 04:09 PM
  #412
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Originally Posted by jeremywilhelm View Post
Cagarys first line? Cammalleri, Jokinen, Iginla are all legitimate PPG players.
not together they weren't

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06-15-2009, 04:10 PM
  #413
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The issue with the Sedins still comes down to whether or not Gillis has had this question fully answered from when he came on boards as GM:

"I don't know if they are players the team will be built around."

The question may now be "I don't know if they are players the team will be built around for $6 million + each per season."

He did say at the season ending presser:
"I thought they were excellent players when I got here. I have an even greater opinion of them today. As people, they're exactly what we want to have in this organization. They conduct themselves in an exemplary manner all the time. They show up and play. They don't complain. Our objective -- and our objective for some time -- was to try to get them signed long-term so they can be the players we build around."

But the caveat has to be at what cost and at what point do you say that is too much and walk away.

And make no mistake with Gillis if the dollar value is beyond what he has budgeted he will let the Sedins walk... his whole history and personality tells me that. Plus he does have a decreasing salary cap to plan for and Luongo yet to be signed long term.

OTOH are the Sedins willing to leave a place they are comfortable and spent their whole NHL careers?

In the "who will blink first" contest I would not bet against Mike Gillis.

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06-15-2009, 04:12 PM
  #414
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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
The issue with the Sedins still comes down to whether or not Gillis has had this question fully answered from when he came on boards as GM:

"I don't know if they are players the team will be built around."

The question may now be "I don't know if they are players the team will be built around for $6 million + each per season."

He did say at the season ending presser:
"I thought they were excellent players when I got here. I have an even greater opinion of them today. As people, they're exactly what we want to have in this organization. They conduct themselves in an exemplary manner all the time. They show up and play. They don't complain. Our objective -- and our objective for some time -- was to try to get them signed long-term so they can be the players we build around."

But the caveat has to be at what cost and at what point do you say that is too much and walk away.

And make no mistake with Gillis if the dollar value is beyond what he has budgeted he will let the Sedins walk... his whole history and personality tells me that. Plus he does have a decreasing salary cap to plan for and Luongo yet to be signed long term.

OTOH are the Sedins willing to leave a place they are comfortable and spent their whole NHL careers?

In the "who will blink first" contest I would not bet against Mike Gillis.
Summed it up nicely there.

I wouldn't be against Gillis either, I'm confident he won't drastically overpay to keep them, but will work hard to get them signed.

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06-15-2009, 04:14 PM
  #415
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Originally Posted by LostMyGlasses View Post
Who were the Ducks first two opponents?
Ducks first round was against the poster child franchise for playoff choking.

Ducks second round was against a Conference finalist, just like the Canucks played against.

And keep in mind those guys are being fed by TWO Norris defensemen.

Seriously, at the level we're talking about, the variance caused by system/coaching/sheer luck is greater than the variance in ability. Fortunately MoneyPuck Gillis seems to understand this much better than the majority of the fan base.

 
Old
06-15-2009, 04:16 PM
  #416
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Meh, I give up. Ultimately, I'm about as far from homer as I can get. I just prefer to look at players objectively, regardless of whether their style of play entertains me greatly or not. But if I'm so off, why has none of you shown me the 10-20 lines that are better than the Sedins?

Or shown me a line, that we can reasonably create and ice that will get more done than they have.
You know you are bang on when Shogun votes top-20

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06-15-2009, 04:17 PM
  #417
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I just don't see how Guerin - Crosby - Satan or other combination of Crosby + two mediocre players, is better than Sedin - Sedin - Burrows who each produced at PPG or more after getting together.
We'll find out soon enough. Malkin and Crosby contracts kick in this upcoming season. Their linemates are going to be dog's breakfast quality - will be VERY interesting to see how far they progress. If they progress at all.

 
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06-15-2009, 04:18 PM
  #418
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Originally Posted by topheavyhookjaw View Post
Here's 15 (I'm a Sedin fan BTW)

Crosbys
Malkins
Ovechkins
Datsyuks
Zetterbergs
(nothing contentious so far)
Philly (Gagne-Richards-Briere/Giroux/Knuble)
Ottawa (Heatley-Spezza-Alfredsson)
Anaheim (Ryan-Getzlaf-Perry)
San Jose (Marleau-Thornton-Setogouchi)
Tampa (St. Louis - Lecavalier-Prospa)
(these 5 I think are pretty much all agreed better than the twins + burrows)
Boston (Lucic-Savard-Kessel)
Chicago (Kane-Toews-Sharp)
New Jersey (Parise-Zajac-Langenbrunner)
Calgary (Iginla-Langkow-Cammalleri)
Carolina (Whitney-Staal-Larose)
(these last 5 are very much open for debate)
The first five, yes. The rest, I would pick about 3 lines that are better, other than that, the rest either cost too much or there's something else up.

Tampa - 15.5m, less points this season
San Jose - 14m right now, but will be about 16-17m, about same amount of points
Ottawa - Heatley is leaving, but either way, they make way more (18m) and produce same amount of points
Philly - 17.5m, about same amount of points
Anaheim - 12m, will go up to 16-17m, about same amount of points

Sure points aren't everything, but even when you go into GW, +/-, etc. Sedins are still dominating. As I said, those players look better and seem better, but once you get into the analytics of things, it's not true anymore. Ultimately, the top 5 are clearly top 5. But after that, Sedins are fighting for spot between 6 - 10.

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06-15-2009, 04:23 PM
  #419
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...you would honestly take Sedin - Sedin - Burrows over Brown - Kopitar - Frolov?
Would I rather pay $14M for S-S-B than for B-K-F? Absolutely. Sedins have proven reliable and durable under playoff pressure, the LA guys haven't proven a damn thing, ever, other than they're real good at getting coaches fired.

 
Old
06-15-2009, 04:27 PM
  #420
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The first five, yes. The rest, I would pick about 3 lines that are better, other than that, the rest either cost too much or there's something else up.

Tampa - 15.5m, less points this season
San Jose - 14m right now, but will be about 16-17m, about same amount of points
Ottawa - Heatley is leaving, but either way, they make way more (18m) and produce same amount of points
Philly - 17.5m, about same amount of points
Anaheim - 12m, will go up to 16-17m, about same amount of points

Sure points aren't everything, but even when you go into GW, +/-, etc. Sedins are still dominating. As I said, those players look better and seem better, but once you get into the analytics of things, it's not true anymore. Ultimately, the top 5 are clearly top 5. But after that, Sedins are fighting for spot between 6 - 10.
Tampa and Anaheim won cups, and Anaheims group is improving greatly, Getzlaf is already a better center than Hank, and Ryan and Daniel are comparable goal scorers, and Perry < Burrows.

You've got Philly's cap hit way off; try 5.25 for Gagne, 5.75 for Richards, and 2.5 for Knuble or less for Giroux, only with Briere is it up that high, and thats not consistent.

Anaheim's cap hit is going to stay low for another year anyway with Ryan still on ELC.

Ottawa is expensive, but was the most productive line in hockey for about three years in a row until this season.

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06-15-2009, 04:28 PM
  #421
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Except one of the "excuses" people come up with for the Sedins is lack of a strong secondary scoring line behind them. Well how exactly can we afford that? Ergo, the team should look elsewhere for new top liners.
You're right. Mike Gillis should go pluck a few pieces of fruit off the First Liners for $3m Tree.

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06-15-2009, 04:29 PM
  #422
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We'll find out soon enough. Malkin and Crosby contracts kick in this upcoming season. Their linemates are going to be dog's breakfast quality - will be VERY interesting to see how far they progress. If they progress at all.
Crosby's had already kicked in, Malkin and Staal's kick in now.

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06-15-2009, 04:29 PM
  #423
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Originally Posted by topheavyhookjaw View Post
Tampa and Anaheim won cups, and Anaheims group is improving greatly, Getzlaf is already a better center than Hank, and Ryan and Daniel are comparable goal scorers, and Perry < Burrows.

You've got Philly's cap hit way off; try 5.25 for Gagne, 5.75 for Richards, and 2.5 for Knuble or less for Giroux, only with Briere is it up that high, and thats not consistent.

Anaheim's cap hit is going to stay low for another year anyway with Ryan still on ELC.

Ottawa is expensive, but was the most productive line in hockey for about three years in a row until this season.
Ok, but then you have to consider that Sedin - Sedin - Burrows played only about 30 games together and each produced PPG or more. So, you know, going back into history doesn't really work that well.

Ultimately, when you consider the stats, it's clear that the Sedins are fighting for top 10 as a line. I don't care if individually they're worse than those players, I don't care if each player is worse than the matching player on the other line. What matters is that they seem to have chemistry and seem to produce really well with Burrows, which is what makes them a great line.

I just understand why we're bringing individual player performances into this. I'm talking about their quality as a line. And they're a damn good line.

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06-15-2009, 04:35 PM
  #424
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Ok, but then you have to consider that Sedin - Sedin - Burrows played only about 30 games together and each produced PPG or more. So, you know, going back into history doesn't really work that well.

Ultimately, when you consider the stats, it's clear that the Sedins are fighting for top 10 as a line. I don't care if individually they're worse than those players, I don't care if each player is worse than the matching player on the other line. What matters is that they seem to have chemistry and seem to produce really well with Burrows, which is what makes them a great line.

I just understand why we're bringing individual player performances into this. I'm talking about their quality as a line. And they're a damn good line.
You're right, hardly the sample size needed to compare them with 3 years of Heatley-Spezza-Alredsson or Prospal-Lecavalier-St. Louis.

They are a very very good line, I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying they're in the 10-20 range of first lines, which is a perfectly reasonable assertion given the fact that every line above them has helped carry a team to either a cup victory or at best a conference finals appearance. And that the production is in the same league.

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06-15-2009, 04:37 PM
  #425
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Originally Posted by topheavyhookjaw View Post
You're right, hardly the sample size needed to compare them with 3 years of Heatley-Spezza-Alredsson or Prospal-Lecavalier-St. Louis.

They are a very very good line, I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying they're in the 10-20 range of first lines, which is a perfectly reasonable assertion given the fact that every line above them has helped carry a team to either a cup victory or at best a conference finals appearance. And that the production is in the same league.
Yup, I agree with this completely. In fact, I think the only disagreement we have is that I'm not considering playoffs and as such for me the Sedins are higher.

Then again, if you consider playoffs then SJS, Ottawa, and Tampa, shouldn't be higher than Sedins, should they? Assuming your sample size is 3 years.

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