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Best Rookie Defenseman

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Old
03-25-2004, 08:15 AM
  #51
oil slick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aylib
You think Bergeron will be better all around than Hamhuis and Pitkanen?
One limiting factor might be Bergeron's height. All 3 are close in their current weight, but Pitkanen is likely to add some down the road. Having a larger frame is certainly beneficial, even some 2 inches (Hamhuis' 6'0 vs. Bergeron's 5'10).
I think Bergeron might have other shortcomings, besides his lack of size, one being defensive zone coverage. I just don't see Bergeron as smooth all-around, top two d-man.
Personally, I don't think that he'll be better than those two, but I do think he could be right there.

I could easily see Bergeron turning into a stronger Raflaski type player (same height, but already much bigger and stronger). He is also showing a lot of character... he has been awesome during the stretch run, 3 goals 5 assists in his last seven games, and logging about 17-18 minutes a game. Ask the average Oil fan who is responsible for getting the team back into the playoff race, and he'll be not far behind Moreau IMO.

I agree that he does make some defensive gaffes (but what rookie doesn't?), but at the same time, he is really not your prototypical offense only d-man. He is smart out there, and reads the play well, and again, concidering he is a rookie, I think there is quite a bit of defensive potential. As you said, his size is an issue, but to me, I am much more comfortable with him out there than I am with half the Oilers D (not that that is saying much, I know)

I think maybe overall I would choose the other two over Bergeron, but for those who think that Bergeron is not in the top three offensively, I'm not too sure where they are soming from. He is far outstripping all other d-men in production per game, and has become an offensive force out there.

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03-25-2004, 08:16 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oil slick
Personally, I don't think that he'll be better than those two, but I do think he could be right there.

I could easily see Bergeron turning into a stronger Raflaski type player (same height, but already much bigger and stronger). He is also showing a lot of character... he has been awesome during the stretch run, 3 goals 5 assists in his last seven games, and logging about 17-18 minutes a game. Ask the average Oil fan who is responsible for getting the team back into the playoff race, and he'll be not far behind Moreau IMO.

I agree that he does make some defensive gaffes (but what rookie doesn't?), but at the same time, he is really not your prototypical offense only d-man. He is smart out there, and reads the play well, and again, concidering he is a rookie, I think there is quite a bit of defensive potential. As you said, his size is an issue, but he to me, I am much more comfortable with him out there than I am with half the Oilers D (not that that is saying much, I know)

I think maybe overall I would choose the other two over Bergeron, but for those who think that Bergeron is not in the top three offensively, I'm not too sure where they are soming from. He is far outstripping all other d-men in production per game, and has become an offensive force out there.
You re right, his offensive numbers speak for themselves.

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Old
03-25-2004, 08:18 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btn
Garnet Exelby is the toughest of the lot.
That man is a ROCK.

Also, I have nothing but good things to say about Danny Hamhuis. IF I was Pierre McGuire, I'd call him a "monster."

Orpik i have not seen, but from what I've heard, he should be AT LEAST as good as Kasparitis.

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Old
03-25-2004, 08:55 AM
  #54
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Pitkanen for sure...I know it shows a little homerism. Sure there are a few rookie dman with more points but he does have the best +/-.

Wow...I had no idea Zidlickey had that many points.

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03-25-2004, 10:01 AM
  #55
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Grebeshkov hasn't seen much time this year. He's looked good though. In LA, Tim Gleason is the runaway candidate. He's on pace to play 51 games this year at a +1.

-Spooks

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Old
03-25-2004, 10:18 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swflyers8
Try 7th.
I believe he's referring to this calender year.

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Old
03-25-2004, 10:20 AM
  #57
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My homer pick would be Liles however I think Hamhuis gets my nod. He has the pressure of facing 1st line forwards and he has PK responsibilities. He also contributes offensively with a forward line in front of him that's not that great (assists). Liles faces 2nd and 3rd line forwards and doesn't touch the PK. Who knows, maybe Liles can do fine in the same situation as Hamhuis but we don't know because he's not asked to. With that said I'd put Hamhuis before Pitkanen and Liles because he is asked to and he's been great.

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Old
03-25-2004, 10:25 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GagsIsDaMan
Wow...I had no idea Zidlickey had that many points.
Not bad for his first year on the smaller ice.

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Old
03-25-2004, 11:48 AM
  #59
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Should be mentioned about Zidlicky, is that he's not just offense too.

He's kind of physical actually, I saw him throw a number of nice hits this year. He'll never be mistaken for Scott Stevens, but he's still no pansy out there.

He could be better defensivly, but you can tell that he really tries out there defensivly. I think as the years go by, we'll see him improve defensivly.

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Old
03-25-2004, 11:57 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TiesAreLikeWins 2 Us
Besides Zidlicky who is the best rookie defenseman this year? Is it Liles, Hamhuis, Pitkanen, Erhoff, Grebeshkov, Martin, or somebody else? Im gonna go with John-Michael Liles.
Hamhuis.

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Old
03-25-2004, 12:01 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robertsson 4-ever
Christian Bäckman have done a relly good season. If St Louis misses the playoffs we could se him play for Sweden in the World Champs.
I was wondering if anyone would bring up Backman. Boy you win the Calder one year w/ a good young Dman and it means no love for the next you D.

Backman has 5g 12a in 49 games this year. He is 6'3", 208 lbs and plays both physically and can move the puck.

Personally, my vote is Pitkanen at this time, but I do think Backman is worth mentioning (He is one of the main reasons the Blues aren't completly out of the playoff raise w/ injuries to Jackman and Mac.)

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Old
03-25-2004, 01:35 PM
  #62
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Atlanta - Garnet Exelby
Colorado - John-Michael Liles
Edmonton - MA Bergeron
Los Angeles - Tim Gleason
New Jersey - Paul Martin
NY Rangers - Fedor Tyutin
Nashville - Dan Hamhuis
Philadelphia - Joni Pitkanen
Pittsburgh - Brooks Orpik
San Jose - Tom Preissing, Christian Erhoff
St. Louis - Christian Backman
Washington - Shaone Morrisonn (via Boston)

Not a bad crop really. Seen all of them play at least a few times, but not near enough to be able to say who has been the best. Having different roles on different teams, it's really tough to pin down the best one of the lot.

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03-25-2004, 01:53 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironchef Chris Wok
That man is a ROCK.

Also, I have nothing but good things to say about Danny Hamhuis. IF I was Pierre McGuire, I'd call him a "monster."

Orpik i have not seen, but from what I've heard, he should be AT LEAST as good as Kasparitis.

IMO Orpik is already better then Kaspar, Orpik is like a poor mans adam foote right now but has the potential to be just as good

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Old
03-25-2004, 03:08 PM
  #64
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Honestly, I haven't seen Pitkanen or Liles much, but even if I had, I doubt I'd be able to rank them higher than Hamhuis. The simple reason here is Hamhuis brings more to his team than the other two.

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Old
03-25-2004, 03:14 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonesey
Honestly, I haven't seen Pitkanen or Liles much, but even if I had, I doubt I'd be able to rank them higher than Hamhuis. The simple reason here is Hamhuis brings more to his team than the other two.
I like Hamhuis too, but you can't fault Liles or Pitkanen for playing on teams with good depth on defense.

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Old
03-25-2004, 03:16 PM
  #66
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Tie. Hamhuis and Pitkanen

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Old
03-25-2004, 03:21 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GagsIsDaMan
I like Hamhuis too, but you can't fault Liles or Pitkanen for playing on teams with good depth on defense.
Actually you do it to hamhuis too. You say his numbers aren't as good the other two guys. Well, Hamhuis doesn't get the time on the powerplay with Kimmo and Zids maning those spots. Not many teams have two offensive defensemen in the class of those two, which takes powerplay time away from Hamhuis. At even strenght his numbers are just as good, without the Sakic's, Forsbergs, Amonte's, LeClair's, etc finishing his passes.

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Old
03-25-2004, 03:23 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggrman
Actually you do it to hamhuis too. You say his numbers aren't as good the other two guys. Well, Hamhuis doesn't get the time on the powerplay with Kimmo and Zids maning those spots. Not many teams have two offensive defensemen in the class of those two, which takes powerplay time away from Hamhuis. At even strenght his numbers are just as good, without the Sakic's, Forsbergs, Amonte's, LeClair's, etc finishing his passes.
I do think Hamhuis is definetly better defensively then Pitkanen, not sure about Liles haven't seen him play. Regardless this has been one of the better crop of rookie dmen in a while.

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Old
03-25-2004, 03:51 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hillbilly
IMO Orpik is already better then Kaspar, Orpik is like a poor mans adam foote right now but has the potential to be just as good
You can compare his defensive awareness to Foote, but overall I don't like that comparison.

Orpik, unofficially, is second in the league in hits, behind only Chara last I checked.

He's responsible on defense and hits with the best of them.

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03-25-2004, 03:54 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swflyers8
Try 7th.
He was talking this year, as in 2004.

The Penguins were something like 30th overall at the change of the calender year, since then they've had the best PP.

Overall they're up to 7th.

Not too shabby considering they've been without Lemieux almost all season.

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Old
03-25-2004, 07:35 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aylib
You think Bergeron will be better all around than Hamhuis and Pitkanen?
One limiting factor might be Bergeron's height. All 3 are close in their current weight, but Pitkanen is likely to add some down the road. Having a larger frame is certainly beneficial, even some 2 inches (Hamhuis' 6'0 vs. Bergeron's 5'10).
I think Bergeron might have other shortcomings, besides his lack of size, one being defensive zone coverage. I just don't see Bergeron as smooth all-around, top two d-man.
I didn't mean for you to interpret best all-round to be most dominating. The size thing might be an issue, but not for the type of game he plays. With the right partner he won't have his size exposed. You should see when he is paired with Brewer. Pretty to watch. The guy has an amazing shot (I get to watch a lot of pregame warmups... he has an accurate laser) and has good speed, nice hands, and is improving his defensive game and decision making every day. I don't think he'll be the stat dominator that Pit or Ham might end up being, but he'll be top 4 atleast in years to come.

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03-25-2004, 07:50 PM
  #72
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On another note, can someone please enlighten me as the the awe that surrounds Orpik? I've only seen a couple of games he's played, and honestly didn't really notice him. Now I look and see that he was never a prolific scorer in the NCAA (he wasn't even in the top three scoring defensemen with Boston College, I mean, 2 goals in 3 years? Good penalty minutes, though :p ), never in the top three scoring defensemen on his team in Wilkes-Barre (had a good +/-, but I imagine that meant he didn't play any PK as a rookie, and may have been paired up with their strongest d-man at the time when on the ice. That's speculation, but 72 shots in 78 games suggests fairly little use). Now he has the 3rd worst +/- on his team (2nd is Tarnstrom, but atleast he has 50 pts), and isn't even in the top 10 rookie defenseman scorers.

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Old
03-25-2004, 07:56 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swflyers8
Try 7th.

Um.... since January 1, 2004, they are first. Look at my original post.

Hence year being in bold

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Old
03-25-2004, 09:04 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s7ark
On another note, can someone please enlighten me as the the awe that surrounds Orpik? I've only seen a couple of games he's played, and honestly didn't really notice him. Now I look and see that he was never a prolific scorer in the NCAA (he wasn't even in the top three scoring defensemen with Boston College, I mean, 2 goals in 3 years? Good penalty minutes, though :p ), never in the top three scoring defensemen on his team in Wilkes-Barre (had a good +/-, but I imagine that meant he didn't play any PK as a rookie, and may have been paired up with their strongest d-man at the time when on the ice. That's speculation, but 72 shots in 78 games suggests fairly little use). Now he has the 3rd worst +/- on his team (2nd is Tarnstrom, but atleast he has 50 pts), and isn't even in the top 10 rookie defenseman scorers.
The guy has zero offense, that's a widely known fact...if you judge a defenseman from points then you're completely missing the point.

Orpik is a guy you only notice if he's smacking someone against the boards. On TV he's practically invisible, in person he stands out like he was the Hulk or something.

And, I've said it a gazillion times before, and I'll say it a gizillion times more, +/- is useless. Orpik gets a buttload of ice time on the worst team in the NHL and has been paired with either Marc Bergevin or Dan Focht all season.

He's a guy you have to look beyond the stats to really find out just how good he is.

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Old
03-25-2004, 10:07 PM
  #75
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Mike Komisarek saw more ice time tonight than Bouwmeester or Pitkanen. Mike's time seems to be going up as those two go down. Liles and Hamhuis never played. I assume they were injured. One of the hazards of undersized defencemen.
The guy who is really coming on is Fedor Tyutin in N.Y. He and Paul Martin seem to be getting a lot of ice time. I think that Tyutin and Komisarek will be the best of the rookies down the road.

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