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Best Rookie Defenseman

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Old
03-26-2004, 04:01 AM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful
The guy has zero offense, that's a widely known fact...if you judge a defenseman from points then you're completely missing the point.

Orpik is a guy you only notice if he's smacking someone against the boards. On TV he's practically invisible, in person he stands out like he was the Hulk or something.

And, I've said it a gazillion times before, and I'll say it a gizillion times more, +/- is useless. Orpik gets a buttload of ice time on the worst team in the NHL and has been paired with either Marc Bergevin or Dan Focht all season.

He's a guy you have to look beyond the stats to really find out just how good he is.
Hey guy, chill out! I agree with the points and +/- thing with defensemen, and since I don't get Pittsburgh games, I had to ask. I've heard a lot, but didn't see anything even remarkably mature or super in the few games I've seen. Remember that ice time is a stat, too, and only an important one if you're producing in a positive way. Again, it's why I asked.

BTW, you have a name I'd love to touch You should change it to Max Power though.

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03-26-2004, 07:17 AM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tophu
Um.... since January 1, 2004, they are first. Look at my original post.

Hence year being in bold

Sorry, I go by the whole season and so does everyone else. It's 2 and a half months, not a year. Flyers have been #1 all season long and Pitkanen is a big part of why they are there.

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Old
03-26-2004, 07:24 AM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by db23
Mike Komisarek saw more ice time tonight than Bouwmeester or Pitkanen. Mike's time seems to be going up as those two go down. Liles and Hamhuis never played. I assume they were injured. One of the hazards of undersized defencemen.
The guy who is really coming on is Fedor Tyutin in N.Y. He and Paul Martin seem to be getting a lot of ice time. I think that Tyutin and Komisarek will be the best of the rookies down the road.
For the record, Hamhuis was a healthy scratch. Trotz was disappointed in his performance vs. Ducks.

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Old
03-26-2004, 07:35 AM
  #79
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Just to add some more enlightenment to your question regarding Orpik... Brooks Orpik is an extremly mature, physical player, who hates to lose. He has aleady been labled future team captain by the veterans on the Pens, and plays a punishing style similar to Scott Stevens. If your wondering what everyone is talking about then check out the links below, but again since he is a Penguin I doubt he will get the praise he deserves just like Ryan Malone and Dick Tarnstrom.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/trib.../s_177624.html

Quote:
"I don't think there's any doubt he has the make-up to be a leader," Olczyk said. "I'll say this: He's a leader on our team already, just by the way he's playing and having more confidence and knowing that, 'Just because I'm a young guy, I don't have to feel my way.' "
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04060/278841.stm

Quote:
"I don't want to get ahead of myself," said defenseman Marc Bergevin, an alternate captain. "But, whenever Mario retires and the dust settles around here, I think he'd be a great candidate."
http://www.pittsburghpenguins.com/te...arts/577.0.php

Quote:
Brooks Orpik: I wouldn't compare myself to anyone. I don't know about Rob Blake. Rob Blake's a lot more offensive than I am. He plays physical, but he's a lot more offensive than I am. I guess someone like Scott Stevens is someone I try to pattern myself after more. I'd never compare myself to anyone like that. Other people can do that if they want.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04063/280410.stm

Quote:
Some fans are comparing Brooks Orpik to Ulf Samuelsson and Darius Kasparaitis. Seems like faint praise to me. Orpik is more reminiscent of Scott Stevens, a punishing hitter with solid puck skills who hates to lose. It would be surprising if Orpik isn't the Penguins' captain at some point

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03-26-2004, 07:47 AM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grave77digger
Just to add some more enlightenment to your question regarding Orpik... Brooks Orpik is an extremly mature, physical player, who hates to lose. He has aleady been labled future team captain by the veterans on the Pens, and plays a punishing style similar to Scott Stevens. If your wondering what everyone is talking about then check out the links below, but again since he is a Penguin I doubt he will get the praise he deserves just like Ryan Malone and Dick Tarnstrom.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/trib.../s_177624.html



http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04060/278841.stm



http://www.pittsburghpenguins.com/te...arts/577.0.php



http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04063/280410.stm
I would have expected less partial assessments. Anyone have links from ESPN or some other national station or paper?

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Old
03-26-2004, 07:59 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s7ark
I would have expected less partial assessments. Anyone have links from ESPN or some other national station or paper?
I doubt youll find many...

http://www.nhl.com/intheslot/read/lu...pik010504.html

that article was before the Pens hotstreak, a rookie Penguin getting ANY attention from a national source is a rarity considering Tarnstrom is 3rd in defenseman scoring and no one seems to notice him (because he plays for the Pens)

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03-26-2004, 09:04 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grave77digger
I doubt youll find many...

http://www.nhl.com/intheslot/read/lu...pik010504.html

that article was before the Pens hotstreak, a rookie Penguin getting ANY attention from a national source is a rarity considering Tarnstrom is 3rd in defenseman scoring and no one seems to notice him (because he plays for the Pens)
How come every thread seems to turn into a "Penguins Players Are the Best, but they are underrated thread?"

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Old
03-26-2004, 09:20 AM
  #83
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because thats how you choose to interpret it... there certainly not the best... Undervalued Yes

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Old
03-26-2004, 09:35 AM
  #84
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With a -35 Can anyone with a straight face put Orpik on top? I know he plays on a bad team and +/- is largely a team stat, but he is the worst on his team?



NAME GP G A PTS +/- PIM ATOI
J. Liles, COL 76 8 23 31 4 28 16:08
Joni Pitkanen, PHI 68 8 18 26 14 44 16:42
M. Bergeron, EDM 49 8 15 23 11 24 17:26
Dan Hamhuis, NSH 75 6 17 23 -14 55 22:11
Paul Martin, NJ 65 5 16 21 11 4 20:00
C. Backman, STL 60 5 12 17 4 16 18:59
Tom Preissing, SJ 64 2 15 17 5 12 18:14
Jim Vandermeer, 40 5 9 14 -12 61 18:01
J. Boumedienne, 33 2 11 13 -8 24 23:05
C. Ehrhoff, SJ 41 1 11 12 4 14 15:22
Brooks Orpik, PIT 74 1 8 9 -35 123 18:18
Garnet Exelby, ATL 69 1 8 9 -11 121 19:30
A. Hutchinson, NSH18 4 4 8 1 4 16:43
Aaron Johnson, CLS27 2 6 8 -2 32 15:08
Shaone Morrisonn, 33 1 7 8 10 10 18:14
Fedor Tyutin, NYR 21 2 5 7 -1 12 19:33
Lukas Krajicek, FLA 18 1 6 7 -2 12 13:31
Burke Henry, CHI 22 2 4 6 2 22 17:11

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Old
03-26-2004, 12:57 PM
  #85
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If you look at last year's top rookie defencemen (on the scoring list), at least half of them have done much worse this year. Many are no longer in the NHL. Hard to make any long term projections based on first year performance.

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Old
03-26-2004, 01:36 PM
  #86
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im gonna go with either pitkanen or chelios. wait...does he qualify or has he had too many games?!

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03-26-2004, 03:45 PM
  #87
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No big deal for Lukas Krajicek this year but watch him next year.

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Old
03-26-2004, 10:05 PM
  #88
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In Hamhuis's defense. How many times have people seen him play as opposed to Pitkanen or Liles? Nashville is never on ESPN as opposed to being shown 30 or 40 times for Philly and Colorado. He is soild; plus it's pretty cool to see him use a textbook Hipcheck.

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Old
03-26-2004, 10:11 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TiesAreLikeWins 2 Us
How come every thread seems to turn into a "Penguins Players Are the Best, but they are underrated thread?"
Because none of them get respect.

Following the national media Dick Tarnstrom is the only halfway decent Penguin and his defense is worse than Andy Delmore's of course :p

And for the 100,000,000th time, +/- is useless. Orpik is a defenseman getting tons of ice time on the worst team in the NHL playing with either Marc Bergevin or Dan Focht all season.

Add that up any way you want. Chris Pronger in his prime would be a horrible minus player on this team.

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03-26-2004, 10:17 PM
  #90
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Plus/minus is certainly relevent. If Orpik plays more than anyone else on the team, presumably he is as much to blame as anyone else for the lousy record. Otherwise you could take the whole Penguin rostor and say each guy has a bad +- only because he is on a lousy team. Same goes for Hamhuis, although I understand he has been benched lately for his play.

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Old
03-26-2004, 10:29 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by db23
Plus/minus is certainly relevent. If Orpik plays more than anyone else on the team, presumably he is as much to blame as anyone else for the lousy record. Otherwise you could take the whole Penguin rostor and say each guy has a bad +- only because he is on a lousy team. Same goes for Hamhuis, although I understand he has been benched lately for his play.
That would only work if you assumed that one guy could single handedly stop another team. Yet no defenseman can do that unless he has an adequate supporting cast. Orpik can be a stud and still be -30 on the Pens. There are 5 opponents out there and he can't cover them all. Goals will be scored unless the other 4 teammates are solid defensively as well. Scott Stevens, on a team with nothing but AHLers, will be well into the negatives despite playing 30+ minutes a night. But is it his fault?

As for Hamhuis, like Orpik, his +/- is what happens when you pit an overmatched defensive pair against the other teams top line. I think Hamhuis has been as good as any rookie Dman in the league, but he and Jason York are not going to stop Hejduk, Tanguay and Forsberg. Nor are they going to stop Thornton, Murray, Knuble. Same goes with Bertuzzi, Naslund, Morrisson. He is still a rookie and I challenge you to find any rookie that would excell under those conditions. And keep in mind, he doesn't have a strong D partner to be paired with like a Jackman (last year) or Liles. Hammer is usually the best Dman on his line, which isn't always a good thing for a rookie, no matter how well he's doing.

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Old
03-26-2004, 10:31 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by db23
Plus/minus is certainly relevent. If Orpik plays more than anyone else on the team, presumably he is as much to blame as anyone else for the lousy record. Otherwise you could take the whole Penguin rostor and say each guy has a bad +- only because he is on a lousy team. Same goes for Hamhuis, although I understand he has been benched lately for his play.
I give up.

Watch the kid and tell me this.

Orpik and Hamhuis are unfreakingbelievable, regardless of that stupid stat.

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03-27-2004, 12:48 AM
  #93
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Didn't I just do this thread? Guess not.

It's simple for me (and I'm not going to provide reasoning because I've done plenty already):

Hamhuis
Then Liles
Then Pitkanen
Then Martin (just barely)
Then Backman

Grebeshkov has no business being named in this thread. Gleason has looked better than Grebeshkov. Bergeron is getting some hype, but as aylib said, his D-zone coverage ranges from absymal to mediocre most of the time. It's good that he's getting some points because Bergeron doesn't really strike me as that good in his own zone.

Oh yeah, Michael Ryder is a suck. Carry on.

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03-27-2004, 02:41 AM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimEIV
With a -35 Can anyone with a straight face put Orpik on top? I know he plays on a bad team and +/- is largely a team stat, but he is the worst on his team?
No, his +/- isn't the worst on his team. Its irrelevant anyway, +/- means very, very little.

By the way, I'd go Hamhuis, Pitkanen, Orpik then Liles. Though there isn't really much between them at all.

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03-27-2004, 07:27 AM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laperriere22
Didn't I just do this thread? Guess not.

It's simple for me (and I'm not going to provide reasoning because I've done plenty already):

Hamhuis
Then Liles
Then Pitkanen
Then Martin (just barely)
Then Backman

Grebeshkov has no business being named in this thread. Gleason has looked better than Grebeshkov. Bergeron is getting some hype, but as aylib said, his D-zone coverage ranges from absymal to mediocre most of the time. It's good that he's getting some points because Bergeron doesn't really strike me as that good in his own zone.

Oh yeah, Michael Ryder is a suck. Carry on.
What's the deal with the Michael Ryder comment? No need. Anyway, I don't think you've watched an oilers game since Bergeron has been brought back. I'm a habs fan who is lucky to have a roomate with 2 oilers season tickets. I've seen him plenty, and he has been their third best all-round defenseman since coming back to the big team (after Brewer and Smith) and has been their 2nd best offensive defenseman after Brewer. His pinches are smarter, and his puck movement is quicker. You should see the guy's shot, too. Pinpoint laser, 'nuff said. It seems like everyone here in Edmonton flies under everyone's radar, so it's not surprising that barely anyone has noticed M-A yet. You will, trust me. I think he is better than the Cube, and again, I'm a habs fan who watches every possible game on sat./dig. cable.

Don't get me wrong, he's not in the top 3 rookie d-men, but he's close.

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03-27-2004, 10:11 AM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s7ark
What's the deal with the Michael Ryder comment? No need.
If Habsolution can take good-natured jabs, so can I. Grow some skin.


Quote:
Anyway, I don't think you've watched an oilers game since Bergeron has been brought back. I'm a habs fan who is lucky to have a roomate with 2 oilers season tickets. I've seen him plenty, and he has been their third best all-round defenseman since coming back to the big team (after Brewer and Smith) and has been their 2nd best offensive defenseman after Brewer. His pinches are smarter, and his puck movement is quicker. You should see the guy's shot, too. Pinpoint laser, 'nuff said. It seems like everyone here in Edmonton flies under everyone's radar, so it's not surprising that barely anyone has noticed M-A yet. You will, trust me. I think he is better than the Cube, and again, I'm a habs fan who watches every possible game on sat./dig. cable.
At what time did you address my criticism of Bergeron, which was of his defensive game? To say I haven't watched him because I criticized his defensive zone play and didn't fawn over his offensive game seems like faulty logic.

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03-27-2004, 06:58 PM
  #97
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If u guys mean future, Tyutin?

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Old
03-27-2004, 07:10 PM
  #98
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If Tyutin had played more games this season I'd say he'd be the best rookie defenseman in the league. He's got a bright future.

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Old
03-28-2004, 03:48 AM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laperriere22
If Habsolution can take good-natured jabs, so can I. Grow some skin.

At what time did you address my criticism of Bergeron, which was of his defensive game? To say I haven't watched him because I criticized his defensive zone play and didn't fawn over his offensive game seems like faulty logic.
Well, I believe if you go back and read it, you'll notice I mentioned his pinching, which earlier in the season was leaving him out of position because he was trying to force the play too much and taking unnecessary risks. One of the most important parts of a d-mans game is getting the puck out of the zone, and I mentioned his puck moving has improved. I'll use more simple language for you. He no make dumb mistakes. He no get beaten to puck in own zone. He no lose puck in own zone. He get puck out of zone better now. He play good. He get lots of powerplay and penalty killing time.

For the record, I have seen him play live 10 times since his return from Toronto and I used to be a Midget AAA defenseman, so I think my assessment has atleast some merit. I still stand by my previous post. To remind you, I never placed him in the top 3 rookie d-men, but simply mentioned that he's in the elite rookie d-men class. So let's remove my logic from the equation for the moment. You never cleared up what you're basing your OPINION on nor how many times you've seen him play, so please get your head out from under the bull in your avatar.

edit: if you need more help to see the obvious, check out the thread from 27/03/04 at 2:39pm entitled "Toronto Roadrunner a part of Oilers drive to Play-off position." Don't just take my word for it.


Last edited by s7ark: 03-28-2004 at 04:14 AM.
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Old
03-28-2004, 05:57 AM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rye&ginger
Hamhuis by a mile. A rookie is the teams #2 d-man and they make the playoffs?
Hamhuis has been excellent for a rookie....but by a mile?
If that were the case then everyone not associated with Nashville, Philly or Colorado would pick him.

I am not singling anybody out but alot of these are homer threads. I do it sometimes also probably, but the 5 best this year in order are IMO:

1)Pitkanen
2)Hamhuis
3)Liles
4)Martin
5)Orpik

That is how I see it.

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