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What Exactly is a REBUILD?

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Old
06-03-2009, 07:11 PM
  #26
DeeMeck
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I would like to officially like to offer Kriticalking a beer sometime. Vegas preferred when it is free, but anytime really. A Kings game next year or anytime.

I'd really like to pick your brain and find out what makes you tick. I'm a nice family guy and all, just really curious to know who you are.

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06-03-2009, 07:23 PM
  #27
SFKingshomer
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Originally Posted by Captain Ron View Post
That is obvious by your constant praise of him and his moves. But ask yourself why would one of the most brilliant minds in hockey have to wait three years after being fired by San Jose to get another GM job?

I think Dean has a lot of good ideas (nix that...great ideas) about how to build a team. His downside is in the execution of these plans.

For a guy you consider ot be one of the better GM's in the league he has never ever been the GM of a Stanley Cup Champion. In fact none of his teams have ever gotten past the 2nd round. Until his plan succeeds Dean is no better than any other average GM in the NHL.
He's never had the $ from ownership to do anything but play money ball and he's doing fine at it. I can't think of anyone who's been better for LA than DL.

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06-03-2009, 08:13 PM
  #28
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Obsessive is a word to describe you. I still haven't seen your master plan that's better than one of the best hockey minds in the NHL.
I have actually addressed this in another post, when I find it, I will post it here. I actually posted my plan, and considering that I am one of the most hated posters on this board, no one gave any negative feedback on it!

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So what would you do then? Play GM here for a moment and let's hear what you have to suggest
Same as above!

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Originally Posted by SFKingshomer View Post
Holland isn't the mastermind behind Detroit's success. I do believe DL is one of the better GM's.
Yah who's this Holland guy? You mean the guy that has superstar players playing in the stanley cup finals that were all drafted in later rounds? you mean the same gm that has won 3 stanley cups, possibly 4th coming soon. The same GM that has won the Central Divison 8 times. Yah that Holland guy doesn't compare to Dean. Cause Dean has won....well...he hasn't won anything yet, but look at all those superstars he's been able to draft in the later rounds...well...not yet, but but he drafted Doughty...Right right! He much be a genius!

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Originally Posted by DeeMeck View Post
I would like to officially like to offer Kriticalking a beer sometime. Vegas preferred when it is free, but anytime really. A Kings game next year or anytime.

I'd really like to pick your brain and find out what makes you tick. I'm a nice family guy and all, just really curious to know who you are.
lol, we'll do Vegas! lol you'll be pretty surprised when you meet me. I'm completely different then my "online persona" see. I choose to name myself KriticalKing for a reason. To remind myself to always be "Kritical". My favourite author is Paulo Freire, who teaches people to think "critically" all too often we are raised through school, governments, parents etc. to just take their word and what is, is. Well I find a lot of people take Deans words as gold, so I always play devils advocate just for entertainment purposes and to get a good debate going once in a while. Trust me, I can jump ship and write pages about how great Dean is...but thats been done and if I have to choose a side based on results, I have to choose the side that criticizes Deans motives for sure! Besides that I'm not a ***** lol! I'm easy going. Hopefully I can make it out to Vegas this year and meet some of the Kings fans for sure, it'd be a blast and a good laugh!!

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He's never had the $ from ownership to do anything but play money ball and he's doing fine at it. I can't think of anyone who's been better for LA than DL.
Hmmmm....Honestly, GM's are not my forte. I can't really name a GM right now that would be a better fit. Frankly, I don't know any GM's, I don't follow GM's. But I can tell you Dean CAN do a better job. Same with Murray. If Murray starts pulling his stunts again this year, he needs to be let go IMMEDIATELY. Kings season this year was a WASTE, no one GELED, no one GREW, no one learned. Murray spent toooo much time dog housing and playing favourites and switching lines which made this season a waste. Why was Calder and every rookie that came in on the top line? beyond me.

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06-03-2009, 08:27 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by KriticalKing View Post
Hmmmm....Honestly, GM's are not my forte. I can't really name a GM right now that would be a better fit. Frankly, I don't know any GM's, I don't follow GM's. But I can tell you Dean CAN do a better job. Same with Murray. If Murray starts pulling his stunts again this year, he needs to be let go IMMEDIATELY. Kings season this year was a WASTE, no one GELED, no one GREW, no one learned. Murray spent toooo much time dog housing and playing favourites and switching lines which made this season a waste. Why was Calder and every rookie that came in on the top line? beyond me.
While Murray has some strange methods, and did a lot of things I disagreed with, I don't think you can say NO ONE grew on the team. Simmonds definately grew, and Handzus returned to form. You can pin Simmonds on Zus, and Zus on Zus, but I think Murray had something to do with it. For example, he paired them together, and decided to make Zus the shut down center instead of Stoll. He easily could have made Zus the 2nd line center again and tried to get him to play a scoring role.

Also Kopitar did make some strides in his 2-way game. That's all Harpo and Murray.

Frolov played some of the best hockey I've ever seen from him, and seemed more consistent this year than in years past.

I think he mishandled Moller a bit, and had an unfortunate chain of events with O'Sullivan that wasn't all his fault.

He showed great faith in Drewiske, giving him top pairing minutes at the end of the season.

And for the record, I know you are just playing devil's advocate, and personally I kind of like it, though at times you say some things that are a little unnecesarry in that they go beyond playing devil's advocate and border on unsubstantiated farce. So long as you make actual points I will respond to you. Inccessant name calling though gets tiresome, whether its directed at players, posters, coaches or management. I don't mind name calling itself, but just ask for some variety. Ex: 'Bonehead' is getting old fast.

Otherwise, flame on!

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06-03-2009, 08:33 PM
  #30
Scottkmlps
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Originally Posted by JDM View Post
You don't want to be pro-active?

Why can't people see a middle ground between full draft rebuild and the DT era?

So your plan is to just wait and see? How long do you wait? What's plan B? Any insurance in there?

After how many losing seasons/missing the playoffs do you become pro-active?

I know you believe in the team, and to an extent I do believe highly in the abilities of the current squad. But they need help, and the missing piece isn't a 3rd liner.
What it seems like to me that you're saying, I could be wrong, just what I see, is you're wanting them to do exactly what the DT era did. Have the youngsters, have them develop, then trade them and/or picks away for established players. In my opinion they go one more draft holding onto that top 5 pick, and fill the holes through free agency. After this season, they can then start to deal through prospect depth and draft picks.
As much as many of us would like to see them deal that 5th overall pick for a Lecavalier, now is not the time. Adding a top 5 talent through the draft and taking your chances through free agency to fill the holes is more valuable to this team then to trade a high draft pick and a top young player/prospect or two to fill one hole. By keeping the pick(s) and adding through free agency, the team is filling 2, 3 or 4 holes without giving up anything. Players around the league see what Lombardi is doing and WILL want to sign in L.A.
Give them one more season, then they can start dealing for a top player. In my opinion, they do that this off season and they're taking a step sideways or backwards. By staying the route they are on, they are taking a step forward.

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06-03-2009, 08:49 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Scottkmlps View Post
What it seems like to me that you're saying, I could be wrong, just what I see, is you're wanting them to do exactly what the DT era did. Have the youngsters, have them develop, then trade them and/or picks away for established players. In my opinion they go one more draft holding onto that top 5 pick, and fill the holes through free agency. After this season, they can then start to deal through prospect depth and draft picks.
As much as many of us would like to see them deal that 5th overall pick for a Lecavalier, now is not the time. Adding a top 5 talent through the draft and taking your chances through free agency to fill the holes is more valuable to this team then to trade a high draft pick and a top young player/prospect or two to fill one hole. By keeping the pick and adding through free agency, the team is filling 2, 3 or 4 holes without giving up anything. Players around the league see what Lombardi is doing and WILL want to sign in L.A.
Give them one more season, then they can start dealing for a top player. In my opinion, they do that this off season and they're taking a step sideways or backwards. By staying the route they are on, they are taking a step forward.
I think they are both steps forwards, just in different pairs of shoes.

I said already that I'd love to keep the draft pick. Again, MPS avatar and all.

Trades are fickle, and the right one won't always be there right when you want it to be. If a great deal comes along, at perhaps not the best time, what do you do? I think (and think Dean would) take the deal. I think the Williams trade is a perfect example of this. All things being equal, he probably would prefer to let Sully play out the season and get Williams in the off-season, but he knew the deal might not be there then and the price might be higher. Carolina wanted a player NOW (then), so Dean had to deal a little earlier than he probably would have liked.

The Vinny thing is the same story. Sure, if Vinny didn't have that NTC, I'd say dealing for him next off-season would make more sense. But how can you know if there will be another superstar player available via trade next offseason? Let alone one that already has a contract in place. It's definately a gamble, and one I'm willing to take.

Again though, for the umpteenth time, trading one high draft pick is not the same as the DT era. One move, in fact, unless it strips the cupboards completely bare in one fell swoop, can be compared to an ERA.

For example, the Palffy trade itself didn't define the DT era, and it didn't cripple the team going forward. It was the almagamation of year after year, trading young talent, seemingly as a rule, for what turned out to be ex-talent. I am not advocating that from this day forward, DL take every trade for our prospects that comes along to get older veterans. Not at all.

Let's just say that trade is JJ, 5th, Moller.

Are the cupboards bare? Do we not still have very nice defensive prospect depth? Are Purcell, Simmonds, Clune, Wudrick, Loktionov, Boyle not still in the system?

I would LOVE to add Kane/MPS/Schenn to the cupboard. But I also want Vinny on my plate. It's not like we just stocked the fridge with groceries and are going to cook every morsel of food tonight, knowing the stores are closed the next day.

Ultimately I don't know. If we don't get Vinny I won't be pissed. If we do get him I will be thrilled so long as Frolov is still a King. If we can get Vinny and keep Frolov and the 5th, I might need to wear several pairs of underwear that day.

If we pick at #5, hang on to Johnson, I will be happy. My ideal scenario is picking MPS or Kane, signing Johnson and Frolov to long term contracts, giving Hickey minutes, and signing Gaborik and Neil.

I don't see that as being very likely, especially the Gaborik part.

The only thing I DEMAND of DL this offseason, is that he adds some offense to the team, in one way or another, and that he does not trade Frolov.

Just remember, one move does not make an era. Dealing some prospects for a superstar this off-season does not negate the rebuild and it does not preclude building through the draft or icing a largely youth-core team.

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06-03-2009, 08:55 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Scottkmlps View Post
What it seems like to me that you're saying, I could be wrong, just what I see, is you're wanting them to do exactly what the DT era did. Have the youngsters, have them develop, then trade them and/or picks away for established players. In my opinion they go one more draft holding onto that top 5 pick, and fill the holes through free agency. After this season, they can then start to deal through prospect depth and draft picks.
As much as many of us would like to see them deal that 5th overall pick for a Lecavalier, now is not the time. Adding a top 5 talent through the draft and taking your chances through free agency to fill the holes is more valuable to this team then to trade a high draft pick and a top young player/prospect or two to fill one hole. By keeping the pick(s) and adding through free agency, the team is filling 2, 3 or 4 holes without giving up anything. Players around the league see what Lombardi is doing and WILL want to sign in L.A.
Give them one more season, then they can start dealing for a top player. In my opinion, they do that this off season and they're taking a step sideways or backwards. By staying the route they are on, they are taking a step forward.
The biggest problem with your scenario is that there will be a group of people (which may or may not include you) that will say the exact same thing next season and the the season after that. There is a point where collecting high draft picks and then watching them either lose confidence because they are mired in a losing tradition or watching them demand money (because players are not playing in LA for the glory) just to see them get shipped off for "the next guy". Right now the Kings appear to be a revolving door. Dean can change that....he still has a chance to get me and some of the naysayers on board with his plan....but that will greatly depend on what he does this off season. Successful GM's do not go 4 straight years of missing the playoffs and justify it by refering to some unknown point of time in the future and expect that everyone is going to buy into it.

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06-03-2009, 09:26 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Captain Ron View Post
The biggest problem with your scenario is that there will be a group of people (which may or may not include you) that will say the exact same thing next season and the the season after that. There is a point where collecting high draft picks and then watching them either lose confidence because they are mired in a losing tradition or watching them demand money (because players are not playing in LA for the glory) just to see them get shipped off for "the next guy". Right now the Kings appear to be a revolving door. Dean can change that....he still has a chance to get me and some of the naysayers on board with his plan....but that will greatly depend on what he does this off season. Successful GM's do not go 4 straight years of missing the playoffs and justify it by refering to some unknown point of time in the future and expect that everyone is going to buy into it.
This argument is a fallacy. The right time to make a trade is anytime that it improves the team and allows the basic plan to be followed.

People just have a difference of opinion on which trades fit into the plan.

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06-03-2009, 09:33 PM
  #34
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This argument is a fallacy. The right time to make a trade is anytime that it improves the team and allows the basic plan to be followed.

People just have a difference of opinion on which trades fit into the plan.
That argument is not a fallacy at all.

The same argument was made by many (I believe you were one of them) last off season. Saying that now was not the time for a trade....that Dean should wait "one more year". That Dean did not have enough assets to make a trade without depleting the Kings group of prospects....I am positive that if the Kings went into next season with their current roster and had another bottom 5 finish that there would still be people saying that Dean should wait "one more year" to make a deal.

I seriously believe that some people get more thrill out of drafting top prospects than actually watching their favorite team in the playoffs.

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06-03-2009, 09:42 PM
  #35
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That argument is not a fallacy at all.

The same argument was made by many (I believe you were one of them) last off season. Saying that now was not the time for a trade....that Dean should wait "one more year". That Dean did not have enough assets to make a trade without depleting the Kings group of prospects....I am positive that if the Kings went into next season with their current roster and had another bottom 5 finish that there would still be people saying that Dean should wait "one more year" to make a deal.

I seriously believe that some people get more thrill out of drafting top prospects than actually watching their favorite team in the playoffs.
Sure it is. Your approach is that it's now or never and something big must be done this off season, or the plan is going to go off the tracks. It just ain't so.

Yeah, I'm sure that I wasn't for any trade last off season that deviated from the plan, but it wasn't because of the timing. The thing is there were very few trade suggestions that made sense last off season. Almost all of them involved moving a younger player for an older player that isn't going to be at the top of his game when the kids are ready to compete for a cup.

I look forward to the kids coming together as a team and making the playoffs. Not all of them are going to stay with the team, but that's ok as long as it's the right deal.


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06-03-2009, 10:05 PM
  #36
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Sure it is. Your approach is that it's now or never and something big must be done this off season, or the plan is going to go off the tracks. It just ain't so.
Well...there is a possibility you have never really considered....if the Kings miss the playoffs yet again and attendance approaches a 9 year low......that AEG might not want to continue with the Lombardi project....after all how many GM 's have been retained by their respective teams after missing the playoffs for 4 straight years? If the Kings were losing money when they were averaging 17,000 attendance/game with a $40 million payroll how do you think they will react when they have attendance of 16,000/game with a $45+ million payroll?

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06-04-2009, 12:26 AM
  #37
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Well...there is a possibility you have never really considered....if the Kings miss the playoffs yet again and attendance approaches a 9 year low......that AEG might not want to continue with the Lombardi project....after all how many GM 's have been retained by their respective teams after missing the playoffs for 4 straight years? If the Kings were losing money when they were averaging 17,000 attendance/game with a $40 million payroll how do you think they will react when they have attendance of 16,000/game with a $45+ million payroll?
Well...if that happens it will be just about the stupidest move they could make. To come this far and not see it through to the end would be a huge mistake.

But hey, bring on Luc. Some of you can't seem to wait to see Lombardi fail even though he is the only GM the Kings have had in the last 20 years that has had a plan and stuck with it.

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06-04-2009, 12:44 AM
  #38
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But ask yourself why would one of the most brilliant minds in hockey have to wait three years after being fired by San Jose to get another GM job?
.
Probably because GM positions dont open up every week on Monster.com

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06-04-2009, 01:03 AM
  #39
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The word is rebuilding, not rebuild. After this draft and offseason, it should be rebuilt. When we are a competitor, it will be built.

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06-04-2009, 01:16 AM
  #40
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I have actually addressed this in another post, when I find it, I will post it here. I actually posted my plan, and considering that I am one of the most hated posters on this board, no one gave any negative feedback on it!



Same as above!



Yah who's this Holland guy? You mean the guy that has superstar players playing in the stanley cup finals that were all drafted in later rounds? you mean the same gm that has won 3 stanley cups, possibly 4th coming soon. The same GM that has won the Central Divison 8 times. Yah that Holland guy doesn't compare to Dean. Cause Dean has won....well...he hasn't won anything yet, but look at all those superstars he's been able to draft in the later rounds...well...not yet, but but he drafted Doughty...Right right! He much be a genius!



lol, we'll do Vegas! lol you'll be pretty surprised when you meet me. I'm completely different then my "online persona" see. I choose to name myself KriticalKing for a reason. To remind myself to always be "Kritical". My favourite author is Paulo Freire, who teaches people to think "critically" all too often we are raised through school, governments, parents etc. to just take their word and what is, is. Well I find a lot of people take Deans words as gold, so I always play devils advocate just for entertainment purposes and to get a good debate going once in a while. Trust me, I can jump ship and write pages about how great Dean is...but thats been done and if I have to choose a side based on results, I have to choose the side that criticizes Deans motives for sure! Besides that I'm not a ***** lol! I'm easy going. Hopefully I can make it out to Vegas this year and meet some of the Kings fans for sure, it'd be a blast and a good laugh!!



Hmmmm....Honestly, GM's are not my forte. I can't really name a GM right now that would be a better fit. Frankly, I don't know any GM's, I don't follow GM's. But I can tell you Dean CAN do a better job. Same with Murray. If Murray starts pulling his stunts again this year, he needs to be let go IMMEDIATELY. Kings season this year was a WASTE, no one GELED, no one GREW, no one learned. Murray spent toooo much time dog housing and playing favourites and switching lines which made this season a waste. Why was Calder and every rookie that came in on the top line? beyond me.
Hakan Anderson deserves most of the credit and Holland has the luxury of an owner willing to spend.

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06-04-2009, 01:57 AM
  #41
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You don't want to be pro-active?

Why can't people see a middle ground between full draft rebuild and the DT era?

So your plan is to just wait and see? How long do you wait? What's plan B? Any insurance in there?

After how many losing seasons/missing the playoffs do you become pro-active?

I know you believe in the team, and to an extent I do believe highly in the abilities of the current squad. But they need help, and the missing piece isn't a 3rd liner.
I want to see signs this team is ready to take the next step before I sign someone who may or may not fit. This is a very young Kings team who is still trying to find it's identity. I don't really want it to be defined by a guy like Gaborik. Vinny? Fine if we don't have to give up too much. The salary makes no sense, but at least he's got character.

But my point is, why puuuuuuuush for one of those guys if this team is not ready to take the next step on it's own. If the team we as is isn't going to develop and be able to take that next step, well then, as much as you may hate the idea of a continued rebuild, it needs to be done.


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06-04-2009, 02:16 AM
  #42
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THE REBUILD IS (SHOULD BE) OVER.

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06-04-2009, 08:33 AM
  #43
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Probably because GM positions dont open up every week on Monster.com
No....but there were at least 4 or 5 GM positions open between the time he was fired from San Jose and hired by the Kings.
If he was as good as some people believe he would not have been available when the Kings were looking for a GM in 2006.

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06-04-2009, 08:39 AM
  #44
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Well...if that happens it will be just about the stupidest move they could make. To come this far and not see it through to the end would be a huge mistake.

But hey, bring on Luc. Some of you can't seem to wait to see Lombardi fail even though he is the only GM the Kings have had in the last 20 years that has had a plan and stuck with it.
If you pay someone to build you a house and after 3 1/2 years all they have completed is the basement then you have to wonder if the house will ever be built....or if the person you hired to build it is doing it the right way.

It is easy to say stay the course when it is someone elses money flipping the bill. AEG does not strike me as the type of ownership that will spend whatever it takes to win....they have always been about the bottom line.....losing income while increasing the payroll does not sound like a great business move.

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06-04-2009, 09:01 AM
  #45
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If you pay someone to build you a house and after 3 1/2 years all they have completed is the basement then you have to wonder if the house will ever be built....or if the person you hired to build it is doing it the right way.

It is easy to say stay the course when it is someone elses money flipping the bill. AEG does not strike me as the type of ownership that will spend whatever it takes to win....they have always been about the bottom line.....losing income while increasing the payroll does not sound like a great business move.
I like the house theory, Its time to move prospects and players to finish the job now, we have them in place to be moved. DL did a good job with that now we use them to get the materials needed to finish the house that DL has built.

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06-04-2009, 09:09 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Captain Ron View Post
If you pay someone to build you a house and after 3 1/2 years all they have completed is the basement then you have to wonder if the house will ever be built....or if the person you hired to build it is doing it the right way.

It is easy to say stay the course when it is someone elses money flipping the bill. AEG does not strike me as the type of ownership that will spend whatever it takes to win....they have always been about the bottom line.....losing income while increasing the payroll does not sound like a great business move.
But if I pay someone to tear down a hockey organization and rebuild it from the ground up all over again, I certainly don't expect it to be finished in 3 1/2 years.

So nice try at a goofy analogy, but it doesn't work for me.

I have to agree with Legionnaire's comment about the kids needing to show signs of life on their own before we throw in a "superstar" that takes the pressure off of them, especially one that calls for the loss of part of the foundation (the #5 pick and prospects).

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06-04-2009, 11:11 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Cruel11 View Post

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06-04-2009, 12:25 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by digger18 View Post
I like the way the Kings have rebuilt via youth movement! I wish the Canucks would do the same thing.
Yeah being a couple of wins away from WC Finals must have really sucked.
I am surethat Luongo would love sticking around for a rebuild since basically his entire career has been spent on rebuilding teams. Maybe after next season (when/if he leaves) you will get your wish. Maybe even sooner if the Sedins leave this offseason.

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06-04-2009, 12:32 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by SFKingshomer View Post
He's never had the $ from ownership to do anything but play money ball and he's doing fine at it. I can't think of anyone who's been better for LA than DL.
Why was he ever fired in the first place then in San Jose if he built a competetive team that was cheap and profitable?

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06-04-2009, 12:37 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by KriticalKing View Post
Rebuild is a word Dean throws out there to fall back on...He also uses the word prospects and future. Rebuild is to the Kings as Playoffs is to Detroit.
Rebuild is more of an excuse then a plan. When all else falls, Dean pulls the Rebuild bear out of the hat in order to keep the fans in line. Then he wows us with the the word prospects and future...Its really amazing. I just want to see how long he can continue to mesmerize us with his trickery.
Are you a TOOL fan by any chance? "Think for yourself question authority" ring a bell?

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