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Old
07-10-2009, 11:33 AM
  #126
faulkingdynamic
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All of this drama is starting to make my head hurt. Even resigning babchuk would still leave the Canes without a decent #4 and with 10 guys capable of playing #5 and #6, yippie. And all those changes to the D that Jr wanted to make would be right out the window(like usually, lots of post season talk and no summer action to back it up).

The situation is simply. Babchuk wants paid like a guy who has arbtitration rights and 16 goals. JR holds all the cards on Anton and has no intention of the kid playing in Raleigh after this season so there is no point to give him mre money that he has to.

Anton is not a difference maker so im not sure signing him makes much difference.

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07-10-2009, 11:37 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Vagrant View Post
Well I can say with full certainty that I would have done the exact same thing and been justified in it. For some reason, hockey players are held to this archaic and unreliable standard that they should grind it out in order to play in the NHL regardless of how long they have done that. No matter that you're playing thousands of miles away from your family and loved ones, no matter that you've already spent more than enough time in a developmental league, no matter that you've been demoted ahead of two players who were on the scrap heap the season prior, no matter that you're making peanuts as compensation, etc. You're supposed to stay in the AHL until God Almighty comes down and extends his hand. I just don't see it.
Well you might support his decision but then you would also have to deal with the fact that this decision lost you your arbitration rights(as negotiated by YOUR union). The choice to go home then is now costing him money. He gave up his own arbitration rights. Simply put, decisions come with consequences.

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07-10-2009, 11:43 AM
  #128
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Mara just signed with MTL

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07-10-2009, 11:43 AM
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
If you want to continue to ignore the significant difference in levels of play on the ice at that time and invent excuses for Babchuk, that's your call. His play went from steady to unsteady and he ended up exactly where it dictated he should be.

From a team standpoint, it should have mattered to Babchuk about the playoff push. You never know what is going to happen and he should have buckled down, reported right away and proved that he was worthy of TOI in the NHL in the event of injury. He took a totally self-centered view, which you seem to be supporting, and certainly caused issues with his teammates.

Look, he played himself out of the lineup and had become a defensive liability much like he was in the playoffs this year. But you think he paid his dues in the AHL and should have been kept in the NHL. To do what, sit in the press box? Kaberle's return forced a roster move and you conveniently are overlooking the blueline dynamics at the time including overall roles and PP duties.

Playing a slumping Dman or having him scratched makes as little sense and the utterly absurd comment about discrimination lawsuits. Holy crap man, what a load of nonsense.
No clue why you're getting so defensive here and accusing me of creating excuses for anybody. I am just trying to add a bit of levity here. Babchuk was jerked around in favor of two guys who one of which is now retired and the other may as well be. That isn't how you treat your top defensive prospect. Bottom line.

And this "self centered view", you claim is hilariously self-righteous and just the type of attitude I was talking about in my earlier post about the standard to which we hold athletes. When you're essentially "kicked off" a team and your income drops from roughly $900k to about $70k, who else should you be thinking about? Ronald Reagan? Anton Babchuk came to North America to play in the NHL. He didn't come to play in the AHL. However, since he understood the way things work over here he took his lumps to the tune of about 200 bus rides in the AHL to get a spot on an NHL roster. In terms of overall play, he was better *that season* than both Tanabe and Hutchinson. Yes, he had a rough patch of games but that aspect of the discussion is overblown. Then, much to his dismay, he was sent down to the AHL once again to ride the bus. He knew he didn't need that for his development. The organization knew he didn't need that for his development, yet they made the move anyways.

Now, in a real life situation outside of hockey, what would you do? Would you come back to the United States to work and make roughly what you were making in your elevated status in Russia or would you stay in Russia, take this menial job, and continue to grind it out just because you wouldn't want to be viewed as "self centered" by your peers in Russia.

The part about the lawsuit was true. I have seen cases made for discrimination with a lot less merit than what Babchuk went through, but since the NHL is almost an entity unto itself it would never happen. Not that it should, but i'm saying cases with less merit are heard every day. If you want to run wild with that statement and claim that I think Babchuk has a case then feel free, but those aren't my words.

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Old
07-10-2009, 12:07 PM
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant View Post
Well I can say with full certainty that I would have done the exact same thing and been justified in it. For some reason, hockey players are held to this archaic and unreliable standard that they should grind it out in order to play in the NHL regardless of how long they have done that. No matter that you're playing thousands of miles away from your family and loved ones, no matter that you've already spent more than enough time in a developmental league, no matter that you've been demoted ahead of two players who were on the scrap heap the season prior, no matter that you're making peanuts as compensation, etc. You're supposed to stay in the AHL until God Almighty comes down and extends his hand. I just don't see it.
In the words of Chad LaRose

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"I have a blast playing this game and anyone who doesn't better get a reality check because what we do for a living is just amazing, to be blessed like this and come to the rink every day. I just have a ball and I don't take anything for granted, it just excites me to be on the ice all the time."
You know how many kids would absolutly freakin LOVE to get the chance to play at the NHL level. If that means getting shuffled back and forth between the NHL and AHL, you do it.

IF Babchuk got sent down just b/c he had a two-way, then I would have felt sorry for the guy. But the fact of the matter is, is that his play was suckage. And I'm not saying that Tanabe and Hutchinson were any better, but its not like the guy was tearing it up. He was a liability at that point and having the 2-way just made it an easier decision to send his butt down. If he's a high prospect like everyone keeps saying he is, wouldn't he have been better served getting more minutes in the AHL, rather sitting in the pressbox eating doughnuts?

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07-10-2009, 12:11 PM
  #131
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Those words by Larose must be tempered with the knowledge that he had just completed the process of unrestricted free agency and trying to get as much money as he could possibly grab from Carolina. Is that wrong? No, it's not wrong at all. However, the difference between AHL money and NHL money is quite a departure. It's great to love the game and have passion for what you do, but none of these guys play for free.... which is essentially what being assigned to the AHL is asking you to do in comparison to a standard NHL salary.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not crying for the guy for getting $70k a year in the AHL but when your earning power is far greater back home..... it has to be a consideration. That's all i'm saying.

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07-10-2009, 12:12 PM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant View Post
No clue why you're getting so defensive here and accusing me of creating excuses for anybody. I am just trying to add a bit of levity here. Babchuk was jerked around in favor of two guys who one of which is now retired and the other may as well be. That isn't how you treat your top defensive prospect. Bottom line.

And this "self centered view", you claim is hilariously self-righteous and just the type of attitude I was talking about in my earlier post about the standard to which we hold athletes. When you're essentially "kicked off" a team and your income drops from roughly $900k to about $70k, who else should you be thinking about? Ronald Reagan? Anton Babchuk came to North America to play in the NHL. He didn't come to play in the AHL. However, since he understood the way things work over here he took his lumps to the tune of about 200 bus rides in the AHL to get a spot on an NHL roster. In terms of overall play, he was better *that season* than both Tanabe and Hutchinson. Yes, he had a rough patch of games but that aspect of the discussion is overblown. Then, much to his dismay, he was sent down to the AHL once again to ride the bus. He knew he didn't need that for his development. The organization knew he didn't need that for his development, yet they made the move anyways.

Now, in a real life situation outside of hockey, what would you do? Would you come back to the United States to work and make roughly what you were making in your elevated status in Russia or would you stay in Russia, take this menial job, and continue to grind it out just because you wouldn't want to be viewed as "self centered" by your peers in Russia.

The part about the lawsuit was true. I have seen cases made for discrimination with a lot less merit than what Babchuk went through, but since the NHL is almost an entity unto itself it would never happen. Not that it should, but i'm saying cases with less merit are heard every day. If you want to run wild with that statement and claim that I think Babchuk has a case then feel free, but those aren't my words.
I'm hardly being defensive but that shoe might fit your replies. Whether you want to see it or not you certainly are making excuses for Babchuk. See the highlighted part? Case in point. The decision was made based on level of play at the time and Babchuk's play was the worst of 3. How could he stay in the lineup with the same kind of poor positional play that got him benched this year? He was an a bit player on the PP, compared to Tanabe and Hutchinson, and his development was better suited to playing in the AHL than sitting in an NHL press box. His "rough patch" lasted over a month and so I don't know how that could be overblown.

Babchuk put himself before the team. Big mistake pure and simple. Don't confuse pro sports with the rights one has in a business setting. He made a major mistake and continues to pay the price for it. I think JR is being petty at this point but there is no doubt Babchuk should have been sent down and erred by initially going AWOL. He signed a two-way deal and knew the possible outcomes which would be based on performance.

Regarding lawsuits, I didn't run wild with anything. You brought it up and I simply said the entire comment was laughable. It is but don't act as if I implied anything beyond that. The comical part is about discrimination. How was he discriminated against? Aren't you the same guy who really reached on the point about JR being anti-Russian while even admitting neither Babchuk or Irbe are Russian and overlooking Samsonov? I think so.

As far as paying your dues, you still have to perform and earn your ice time on an NHL roster. Who cares how many AHL games Babchuk played? Melichar stunk it up and was demoted to the AHL with a one-way deal which you seem to forget while simply focusing on the cost elements of Babchuk's demotion. Hutchinson was making close to the league minimum that year and you think that was a huge factor? Sorry, but what you are presenting just doesn't hold up to the facts of the matter.

Seriously, if you think Babchuk got a raw deal then go back and check that year, consider the D corps dynamics, etc. and then come back with that argument. The fact that Tanabe is out of the league due to injury has zero to do with the fact that he outplayed Babchuk during the stretch that the demotion decision was based on. Hutchinson was getting something like 4 mins/g on the PP and Babchuk wasn't trusted there and his positioning had gone to hell.

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07-10-2009, 12:14 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by eerodynamic View Post
Seidenberg is the guy that needs replaced not Anton and i dont believe Anton would have done the job in Dennis' place. It was interesting to see that Scott Howson also poopooed Seidenberg and his asking price. Sounds like Dennis continues to misplay his hand
We missed this. Can anyone elaborate? Folks on the CBJ board are interested to varying degrees in both of these guys. Thanks.

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07-10-2009, 12:16 PM
  #134
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Why is Babchuk's play in the playoffs enough to condemn him but the 3 - 3 1/2 months of play before the playoffs not enough to get him a raise?

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07-10-2009, 12:22 PM
  #135
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I have already made my case quite transparently and do not wish to invest any more time than i've already wasted in presenting to you my reasoning for being empathetic in regards to Babchuk's situation that year. I feel it was a mistake by management that ruined what could have been a fruitful relationship for both parties, and it's unfortunate that it unfurled that way.

As far as the anti-Russian thing, I haven't the foggiest what you're talking about. I don't remember even discussing that, but I do believe JR is anti-Russian. Babchuk is Urkanian-Russian, which has geographical and ethnic implications that reach far beyond the depth that i'm willing to go on a hockey message board, and Latvian Arturs Irbe is clearly not Russian.

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07-10-2009, 01:09 PM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant View Post
I do believe JR is anti-Russian.
Many people his age are a bit anti-Russian. Can you blame them? I remember the 80s and the Soviet Union well myself though I was just a kid.

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07-10-2009, 01:12 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Vagrant View Post
I have already made my case quite transparently and do not wish to invest any more time than i've already wasted in presenting to you my reasoning for being empathetic in regards to Babchuk's situation that year. I feel it was a mistake by management that ruined what could have been a fruitful relationship for both parties, and it's unfortunate that it unfurled that way.

As far as the anti-Russian thing, I haven't the foggiest what you're talking about. I don't remember even discussing that, but I do believe JR is anti-Russian. Babchuk is Urkanian-Russian, which has geographical and ethnic implications that reach far beyond the depth that i'm willing to go on a hockey message board, and Latvian Arturs Irbe is clearly not Russian.
No, you didn't make a case in the least on the points about his play vs. others or the blueline situation overall but whatever. What is clear is how you see Babchuk as the victim and then frame your recollections around that while totally minimizing his long stretch of bad play and the importance of team.

Perhaps you should both keep in mind the sign in the Canes room that states "It's not about me, it's about the guy in front of me."

The anti-Russian comment was posted by you in this very thread, on page one in post #17...

Quote:
JR has a major disdain for Russian players and it's obvious with the way he treated Irbe (Latvian, I know), and now Babchuk.... it seems a bit odd. When an organization that thrives on team loyalty clearly dismisses a player without question it makes you wonder as to how long Babchuk would feel comfortable staying around here.
So in summary, you did use the Latvian Irbe in that example, conveniently drew ethnic similarities between Ukranians and Russians and overlooked an actual Russian in Samsonov. Ok, got it.

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07-10-2009, 01:37 PM
  #138
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I just wish Babchuk would go ahead and sign the contract or we'd trade his rights so we could move on from all this pointless debate from years gone by.

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07-10-2009, 01:44 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by eerodynamic View Post
It was interesting to see that Scott Howson also poopooed Seidenberg and his asking price. Sounds like Dennis continues to misplay his hand
Blue Jackets fan here, just wondering where you heard/saw that because I haven't seen any reports that Howson was interested in Seidenberg? There's plenty of us Blue Jackets fans that would love to get him or Babchuk.

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07-10-2009, 01:47 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Vagrant View Post
I just wish Babchuk would go ahead and sign the contract or we'd trade his rights so we could move on from all this pointless debate from years gone by.
Now on that point we agree but old debates are an off-season ritual.

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07-10-2009, 02:53 PM
  #141
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Blue Jackets fan here, just wondering where you heard/saw that because I haven't seen any reports that Howson was interested in Seidenberg? There's plenty of us Blue Jackets fans that would love to get him or Babchuk.
I saw it on Spector's yesterday:

Quote:
COLUMBUS DISPATCH: Tom Reed reports the Blue Jackets biggest need is for an established offensive defenseman. GM Scott Howson has a glut of wingers and is reportedly exploring trade options. Reed reports the top remaining UFA blueliners like Derek Morris and Dennis Seidenberg aren't on Howson's radar unless their asking price drops substantially. Possible trade targets could include Toronto (9 blueliners under contract) or San Jose (only 8 forwards under contract).

SPECTOR'S NOTE: Perhaps Howson might have some interest in Babchuk?

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07-10-2009, 03:03 PM
  #142
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If you guys can't agree to terms with AB, someone else will. There's always a spot for a defenseman with a booming shot who can do a few things on the power play. And I don't imagine you'd like both Seidenberg and Babchuk to walk away without any real compensation. I understand the cap problems, but still.

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07-10-2009, 03:07 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by donGjohnson View Post
If you guys can't agree to terms with AB, someone else will. There's always a spot for a defenseman with a booming shot who can do a few things on the power play. And I don't imagine you'd like both Seidenberg and Babchuk to walk away without any real compensation. I understand the cap problems, but still.
That's what I am talking about...though apparently when Babchuk steps on the ice 3 goals are automatically awarded to the other team, and also he cannot physical check someone, even though half of our team doesn't ever hit either.: I don't understand why you would just let a defenseman with so much promise just leave without offering him a fair contract....its just handling your assets poorly.

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07-12-2009, 07:54 AM
  #144
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I'd like to see Babchuk back in Carolina next season, but it looks like that will not be the case if Babchuk and Rutherford both get their way.

What does everyone think of this deal?

To Columbus:
Anton Babchuk
2010 Third-Round Draft Pick

To Carolina:
Jared Boll
Marc Methot

Boll would add toughness to the fourth-line and is someone that would stand up for our skill players. Admittedly, I don't know alot about Methot but his scouting report seems to indicate he plays a style similar to Gleason.

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07-12-2009, 08:22 AM
  #145
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I wouldn't like it if only from the standpoint that we need something more proven IMO. Right now our only veteran presence on the blue line is in the form of Wallin and Kaberle and the leadership is from Tim Gleason. While I think Gleason would be even better suited to be our future captain then even Staal would, let that thought sink in for a bit.

Value is probably about right in a Methot for Babchuk straight up move. A third for Boll is probably a bit much. I'd swap that out for Nashville's 5th this year and Hughes since Columbus is thin down the middle organizationally. Personally I prefer Derek Dorsett from them (Scott Walker 2.0 IMO) but Boll is an ex-Whaler and a potential marketing opportunity, especially in the Charlotte area, since he's a Charlotte born player. Not to mention he's just flat out bigger, which is something we could always use.

This trade could go one of two ways to me. If it's a move for a guy like Methot that still leaves room to sign a guy like DeVries for a leadersip roll on the defense and is thinking long term. Of course, that's assuming that JR would do that rather then stick with the status quo, and history proves otherwise so far. If we get a guy like Salei that means JR thinks we can win now or in the next year or so (depending on if there's an extension worked out)


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07-13-2009, 12:31 PM
  #146
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Babchuk gave an interview in Russian media.

I am providing with a rough translation on the subjects that we are interested in:

Link in Russian

Quote:
have you really declined $1mil contract from Carolina?

Yes, i did. I think i deserve beter than that. and i am ready to argue my point of view.
Look at my statistics. I am 4th d-man in NHL in scored goals and best in Carolina.
I am best defenseman in Carolina in "+/-". I don't know why management didn't take all this in consideration.

What if they give you 2 mil contract?
I wouldn't want to talk about numbers at the moment. I had certain wishes and my agent worked with the team.
Carolina, however, had other ideas. Last week my agent was working on possible trades with other teams.


What are the potential teams where Babchuk could play?

I've heard from my agent that 7 or 8 teams were interested, including Rangers and Vancouver. I am optimistic about my future


What did Carolina said where you refused?
Quite alright. It's a business. Management wants to get the best possible player at the least possible price. Player wants to get paid as much as he can.


Do you think you'll continue your career in Russia?
Nothing is impossible, but honestly, I'd like to continue my career in NHL. I'll try to demand to have at least 3 year contract.

Why did you play so poorly early in the season and started playing much better the second half?
Lavi trusted me much less than Maurice. Maurice gave me ice time and if Lavi did the same you'd see my statistics much better earlier in the year.


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07-13-2009, 01:34 PM
  #147
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Branecky

I posted this in another thread as well, but JR has some comments on Babchuk as well.

Quote:
Rutherford said that there had been no progress in his talks with Babchuk’s camp, and that the player would likely either return to Russia or be traded to a team that would meet his demands. So far, no team has stepped forward.

If Babchuk were to return to Russia, the Hurricanes would retain his rights similar to when this situation last occurred in the summer of 2007. That decision cost Babchuk his arbitration rights, which he still would not receive if he returned to the NHL after the coming season.

“If he hadn’t have gone to Russia for the one year, he would have arbitration rights this year,” said Rutherford. “From my point of view, you can’t have it both ways.”

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07-13-2009, 01:36 PM
  #148
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Babchuk for Marc Staal, make it happen JR

Seriously though, the Rangers have nothing I'd want that they would trade other then maybe Sanguinetti. And the last thing I want is Babchuk in the east. Vancouver, on the other hand, I'd gladly add Sami Salo to our defense even if he hasn't played more then 70 games since the lockout.

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07-13-2009, 02:15 PM
  #149
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Im sure most would be against it, and I doubt it's on our radar or payscale either - but if the rags are serious about moving zherdev i think we'd be stupid not to look at it. his criticisms are that he is a bit of a puck hog and inconsistent. well, we dont have an offensive system really. whenever we get skill guys (whitney,stillman, cullen, sammy) they are such an improvement that we let them free lance all they want, as long as they can create. zherdev goes to the net, and is a better shooter than just about everyone we have, he is the anti-sammy interms of decisions...as in he turns to the net instead of away from it. if you think he has character issues, our locker room makes up for it and he will learn. in terms of reclamation projects he would be a high end one that if it pays off would REALLY pay off, and at worst wed have another skilled winger on a deep offensive team.

best part, is that he would likely fit in nicely with staal. staal isnt a playmaker, and plays better when with one. staal banging around the crease putting away the chances zherdevs solo plays create looks realistic to me. we need staal to have a winger, and the cost will likely be less than 5+ all the guys this year have gotten. can we get more for staals winger? i like kobasew too, but who else?

i dont think we would find a way to make the salary work, and i dont think jr would bite on this. just throwing it out there. i do think jr uses situations like this to go after particular pieces he thinks he needs. babs has likely become an asset to use to fill a hole, and while we have multiple ones, staals winger has to be one. not that babs would be enough but who knows in terms of what the rags need for cap space.

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07-13-2009, 02:24 PM
  #150
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I'd love to have Zherdev. He'd be the best guy to play with Staal.

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