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Greg Sherman & Co - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM

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Old
12-01-2011, 03:00 PM
  #226
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Do you know what would really help Sherman's record? HIRE CARLYLE.
My thoughts exactly.

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12-01-2011, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by foppagirl21 View Post
Do you know what would really help Sherman's record? HIRE CARLYLE.
What's interesting is that Sherman has the opportunity to amend for not firing Sacco sooner... and this could be the best possible situation rather than having fired Sacco and used a patch replacement awhile ago.

Here's to hoping we wake up to a great surprise or it gets taken care of by next week.

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12-02-2011, 12:48 AM
  #228
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Oops...wrong thread.

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12-02-2011, 01:25 AM
  #229
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Wins from the Sherman Regime:
The Winnik Trade -
A steal for a 4th rounder. If we're going to **** on Sherman for letting bottom 6ers go we should give him credit for bringing in a great one for next to nothing.

The EJ/McClement/Siemens trade -
EJ is a top pairing Dman for us, he makes everybody's elses job easier as evidenced by the resurgent season Quincey's having and the breakout seasons Wilson and O'Brien are having. Those guys would've been playing over their talent levels on previous Avs squads but with EJ they have been shielded from playing top pairing minutes.

McClement has been phenomenal and has been instrumental in Radar's break out year since he lets O'Reilly actually play a two-way game and not focus solely on defense and PK. Without McClement there's just no way we'd be seeing this kind of offensive out put from Radar, the same way Staz shielded Dutchy the past two years.

Siemens has as much raw talent as anyone in this trade not named EJ.

The Varly trade
The Avalanche finally add a young cornerstone goaler who can become the franchise goaler this young core needs for when they'll be ready to contend in 2+ years. We paid a serious price for a serious talent and we've all seen just how much talent Varly has, now it's a question of waiting on him to learn how to eliminate the down games by polishing his technique.

Signing Kobasew
At this point this is a win. Earlier in the season when he was playing top 6 minutes Kobascrew was a disaster. But now that he's on a bottom 6 line with McClement he's really flourishing as a grinder. The guy's really flying around the ice, throwing his body around and creating turnovers.

The Mueller/Porter trade
Getting anything out of Wolski is a win, that something being 20 games of mueller and a good grinder doesn't negate that.

Signing O'Brien
He's having a really impressive season that's surpassing everyone's expectations, if Hejda having a bad year counts against Sherman, then O'Brien having a good one counts for him.

Trading for Quincey
Quincey's really playing well as the third dman. No longer expected to perform at a top pairing level Quincey is just going out and playing good hockey. He's been notably worse since losing EJ has pushed him into a position beyond his skillset, but still with the season he's having he's a great addition for a cap dump.

O'Byrne trade
O'Byrne has given us a steady big guy who isn't awful out there and was really good last season covering for Liles.

Flash Trade
Turning Hannan, who'd been really mediocre for us, into 20 some games of PPG play from Flash was a great move that didn't work out ultimately due to Flash's health, but the trade is still a win for what we got out of him last season next to Dutchy.

Letting our great scouting group do their thing is another win.

Was that list really all that productive? Is the only reason it wasn't helpful to the discussion because it's of the opposing viewpoint?

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12-02-2011, 02:02 AM
  #230
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The Varly trade doesn't belong on that list yet.

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12-02-2011, 03:13 AM
  #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgf View Post
Wins from the Sherman Regime:
The Winnik Trade -
A steal for a 4th rounder. If we're going to **** on Sherman for letting bottom 6ers go we should give him credit for bringing in a great one for next to nothing.

Signing O'Brien
He's having a really impressive season that's surpassing everyone's expectations, if Hejda having a bad year counts against Sherman, then O'Brien having a good one counts for him.

O'Byrne trade
O'Byrne has given us a steady big guy who isn't awful out there and was really good last season covering for Liles.
These were given credit as positive moves, they weren't ignored.

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The EJ/McClement/Siemens trade -
EJ is a top pairing Dman for us, he makes everybody's elses job easier as evidenced by the resurgent season Quincey's having and the breakout seasons Wilson and O'Brien are having. Those guys would've been playing over their talent levels on previous Avs squads but with EJ they have been shielded from playing top pairing minutes.
This trade is a wash it's no where near a positive trade right now. If you're going to make the stretch and say the trade made O'Brien and Wilson better, than you have to give credit to the negative impact it did to Stastny by taking away the best goal scorer on the team and the one he had his best chemistry with. It's a wash not a win.

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McClement has been phenomenal and has been instrumental in Radar's break out year since he lets O'Reilly actually play a two-way game and not focus solely on defense and PK. Without McClement there's just no way we'd be seeing this kind of offensive out put from Radar, the same way Staz shielded Dutchy the past two years.
McCLement has been very good but he's a 4th liner, and he hasn't been instrumental in Radar's success. Radar has been instrumental in that, and it still looks a bit inconsistent offensively. What Jay has done on the 4th line doesn't affect O'Reilly's role much on the 3rd line.

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Siemens has as much raw talent as anyone in this trade not named EJ
I think you may be mis-using the word raw talent. He looks like a potentially good prospect. He looks to project similar to O'Brien or a meaner Quincey if he finds some offense.

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The Varly trade
The Avalanche finally add a young cornerstone goaler who can become the franchise goaler this young core needs for when they'll be ready to contend in 2+ years. We paid a serious price for a serious talent and we've all seen just how much talent Varly has, now it's a question of waiting on him to learn how to eliminate the down games by polishing his technique.
See I didn't add a bunch of opinion like this to my original post. It was simply a list of moves with my assertion that they were either poor value, or generally didn't work out as expected. Sherman is playing for a tie on this trade. His best case scenario is that Varly develops into the goalie you're talking about and makes the trade worth it. He let McPhee swindle him into giving up a boatload for an injury prone goalie who had all but told him he was going to the KHL if he didn't trade him.

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Signing Kobasew
At this point this is a win. Earlier in the season when he was playing top 6 minutes Kobascrew was a disaster. But now that he's on a bottom 6 line with McClement he's really flourishing as a grinder. The guy's really flying around the ice, throwing his body around and creating turnovers.
Not sure how signing a guy expected to supplement your scoring and ending up on the 4th line is a win. Especially when he only has a handfull of good games there. If by win, you're UFA signing isn't a regular scratch or off to Sweden, then I guess so.

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The Mueller/Porter trade
Getting anything out of Wolski is a win, that something being 20 games of mueller and a good grinder doesn't negate that.
Another awfully big stretch. This is a wash. Getting a depth player like Porter who's role you could fill with an $800k UFA signing isn't much of a win. I'd much rather have Hendricks playing that role, if that puts things in perspective.

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Trading for Quincey
Quincey's really playing well as the third dman. No longer expected to perform at a top pairing level Quincey is just going out and playing good hockey. He's been notably worse since losing EJ has pushed him into a position beyond his skillset, but still with the season he's having he's a great addition for a cap dump.
He is playing well and he's finally healthy and solidifying the blueline. All things considered though we've got about 2-3 months of this kind of contribution from him the few years he's been here. On the flip side, Smyth's leadership, net presence, and points are exactly what this team has needed the last few years and especially right now. His cap hit would not have affected the team, and he is not the withering old man at the end of his contract as the rationale implied at the time of the trade.

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Flash Trade
Turning Hannan, who'd been really mediocre for us, into 20 some games of PPG play from Flash was a great move that didn't work out ultimately due to Flash's health, but the trade is still a win for what we got out of him last season next to Dutchy.
A wash I'd say, and negated a bit by not retaining him. Hannan had not ever been mediocre. He's perfect in his role, that's why you see Caps fans wishing they had him back, and Calgary fans liking his play. Losing Hannan put a huge hole in an already depleted D and it didn't recover until they brought in all the guys they did in the offseason.

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Originally Posted by cgf View Post
Letting our great scouting group do their thing is another win.
Again, giving him credit for not completely F' n up and trying to call shots on something he doesn't know about. Not really a win.

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Originally Posted by cgf View Post
Was that list really all that productive? Is the only reason it wasn't helpful to the discussion because it's of the opposing viewpoint?
Certainly the other viewpoint is always productive, but it doesn't do anything but try and stretch to give Sherman way too much credit for the sake of making a counter argument. All I did was lay out the moves with a little bit of opinion, I didn't go out and say Matt Hendricks was amazing, and he made all the young guys better, and took pressure off McLeod and this and that.

Shermans's trades and personel decisions have not worked out as they were billed. He hasn't ruined the team by any means ala Mike Milbury, but his tenure can not be described as good so far. You don't say someone was good because they moved a few pieces around that are washes at best, and didn't completely screw up by trading away a Duchene or O'Reilly.


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Old
12-02-2011, 03:33 AM
  #232
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I agree with you and Av in general but I completely disagree on two points.

McClement has been instrumental in O'reilly's develepment. He's taken his place on the PK and gives us another reliable defensive option even strength. And has allowed us to try the Dutchy to wing experiment because he can fill in as a 3rd line center. You don't think RoR not PKing this year has anything to do with his offensive improvement?

Siemens doesn't project to be similar to O'brien. I'm not going to go over all the reasons why, there's plenty of scouting reports around, not to mention you could just watch the Blades play, but if Pracey felt that way do you really think we'd take him at 11? The rest of our management may be questionable, but Pracey has proven himself.

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12-02-2011, 10:11 AM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Nihiliste View Post
I agree with you and Av in general but I completely disagree on two points.

McClement has been instrumental in O'reilly's develepment. He's taken his place on the PK and gives us another reliable defensive option even strength. And has allowed us to try the Dutchy to wing experiment because he can fill in as a 3rd line center. You don't think RoR not PKing this year has anything to do with his offensive improvement?

Siemens doesn't project to be similar to O'brien. I'm not going to go over all the reasons why, there's plenty of scouting reports around, not to mention you could just watch the Blades play, but if Pracey felt that way do you really think we'd take him at 11? The rest of our management may be questionable, but Pracey has proven himself.
I have to agree with this also. Obviously as Foppa said RoR had a lot to do with him improving his offensive side, but there is no doubt in my mind that McClement indirectly helped him accomplish that. He is able to take more minutes 5 on 5 and he is also fresher and therefore can provide a much better forecheck and backcheck.

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12-02-2011, 10:33 AM
  #234
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
These were given credit as positive moves, they weren't ignored.



This trade is a wash it's no where near a positive trade right now. If you're going to make the stretch and say the trade made O'Brien and Wilson better, than you have to give credit to the negative impact it did to Stastny by taking away the best goal scorer on the team and the one he had his best chemistry with. It's a wash not a win.

Fair point, although I think building up our D was much more important and valuable than our O. With Elliott in the fold I wouldn't be shocked to see our offense significantly up their production with the better transition game he brings along. That said I don't think Staz has played terrible by any stretch, despite how snakebitten him and Jones have been, and Stewie was forcing his way out with his off ice and work ethic issues.

McCLement has been very good but he's a 4th liner, and he hasn't been instrumental in Radar's success. Radar has been instrumental in that, and it still looks a bit inconsistent offensively. What Jay has done on the 4th line doesn't affect O'Reilly's role much on the 3rd line.

Radar's been instrumental to his development, but having McClement there to take over as the top PKer and to take over a significant chunk of the defensive 5on5 shifts, has given Radar more freedom to get involved offensively. Last season Radar really struggled with getting involved up front because he was so concentrated on playing safe defensively, this season he's done incomparably better at transitioning from D to O and the change in his role is something we can do because of McClement. Also he's let us move Dutchy to wing and Radar to the second line lately.

I think you may be mis-using the word raw talent. He looks like a potentially good prospect. He looks to project similar to O'Brien or a meaner Quincey if he finds some offense.

I disagree, IMO Siemens' low end potential, that being if he makes no strides offensively at all, is already a better player than O'Brien.

See I didn't add a bunch of opinion like this to my original post. It was simply a list of moves with my assertion that they were either poor value, or generally didn't work out as expected. Sherman is playing for a tie on this trade. His best case scenario is that Varly develops into the goalie you're talking about and makes the trade worth it. He let McPhee swindle him into giving up a boatload for an injury prone goalie who had all but told him he was going to the KHL if he didn't trade him.

I disagree I think it's a tie now that we can win if Varly hits his ceiling. Who cares if Varly was going to the KHL? If he did that would just work better for the Caps as they'd get more time to figure out which of their 3 goalers was going to work out the best. The caps would just hold onto his rights until Neuvirth and Holtby forced them to turn to a more experienced Varly, or they'd prove they didn't need him and let them trade him for a similar package to what they got 2 years down the road.

Not sure how signing a guy expected to supplement your scoring and ending up on the 4th line is a win. Especially when he only has a handfull of good games there. If by win, you're UFA signing isn't a regular scratch or off to Sweden, then I guess so.

I think you and Sacco were the only men on earth who thought Kobascrew would be a legit top 6 winger. He was paid like a grinder and he's excelled in that roll.

Another awfully big stretch. This is a wash. Getting a depth player like Porter who's role you could fill with an $800k UFA signing isn't much of a win. I'd much rather have Hendricks playing that role, if that puts things in perspective.

A win is a win. Hendricks has nothing to do with this move if we're just judging each move. Porter's been better than Wolski is the point and that's not accounting for the great 20 games we got from Mueller and his potential impact if he ever fully recovers the way Crosby and Bergeron have/are.

He is playing well and he's finally healthy and solidifying the blueline. All things considered though we've got about 2-3 months of this kind of contribution from him the few years he's been here. On the flip side, Smyth's leadership, net presence, and points are exactly what this team has needed the last few years and especially right now. His cap hit would not have affected the team, and he is not the withering old man at the end of his contract as the rationale implied at the time of the trade.

Smyth's been the withering old man the last two years. This year he's having a renaissance season but I think playing in Edmonton again is a huge part of that. Doubt he'd have the same fire if he were still playing with us. Plus our D would be pretty awful if we swapped Quincey for Smyth right now.

A wash I'd say, and negated a bit by not retaining him. Hannan had not ever been mediocre. He's perfect in his role, that's why you see Caps fans wishing they had him back, and Calgary fans liking his play. Losing Hannan put a huge hole in an already depleted D and it didn't recover until they brought in all the guys they did in the offseason.

Hannan was extremely mediocre as a top pairing guy for us, similar to how Quincey would struggle if we were forced to play him on the top pairing without EJ on a regular basis. This isn't to say Hannan's a mediocre defender, but he's a good solid #4, which doesn't help a good awful defense lacking a 1, 2 and 3.

Again, giving him credit for not completely F' n up and trying to call shots on something he doesn't know about. Not really a win.

It's called management, you get blamed for your subordinates screw ups and you get credit for their success. The Scouting staff falls under that umbrella.

Certainly the other viewpoint is always productive, but it doesn't do anything but try and stretch to give Sherman way too much credit for the sake of making a counter argument. All I did was lay out the moves with a little bit of opinion, I didn't go out and say Matt Hendricks was amazing, and he made all the young guys better, and took pressure off McLeod and this and that.

Shermans's trades and personel decisions have not worked out as they were billed. He hasn't ruined the team by any means ala Mike Milbury, but his tenure can not be described as good so far. You don't say someone was good because they moved a few pieces around that are washes at best, and didn't completely screw up by trading away a Duchene or O'Reilly.
Responses in bold.

I really do think you expected a lot more from these trades than was reasonable, that's why you say they "have not worked out as they were billed" while I'm fully satisfied with the players we've brought in, even when we had to pay what they were worth.

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12-02-2011, 03:47 PM
  #235
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Responses in bold.

I disagree I think it's a tie now that we can win if Varly hits his ceiling. Who cares if Varly was going to the KHL? If he did that would just work better for the Caps as they'd get more time to figure out which of their 3 goalers was going to work out the best. The caps would just hold onto his rights until Neuvirth and Holtby forced them to turn to a more experienced Varly, or they'd prove they didn't need him and let them trade him for a similar package to what they got 2 years down the road.
This is obviously breaking down to just a matter of opinion, but I really don't see how you can say that trade is a win right now. Varly looked very good his first few games, then went into that kind of Anderson mode where he wasn't really playing terribly but he wasn't making big saves and letting in a couple he probably should have had. Now he's put together a couple games where he was making the saves at key points again to get wins. That by itself doesn't instil confidence in giving up a possible lottery pick and an additional 2nd. A somewhat solid goalie is not worth the price he gave up, he has to be the clear cut answer to our number one goalie problems for at least a few years to come.

The KHL side of things is huge. It was out there and a lot of people knew he could bolt. I don't really buy the idea McPhee would rather trade him the next season. His value would be near nothing if the last thing he showed was an inconsistent injury prone young NHL career and then a year in the KHL. Sherman let him talk him into the idea that he didn't really want to trade him. It's the old, "No, no we don't really want to trade him. Well what would you offer? Oh, no no you'll have to give us at least your 1st and a 2nd. Oh no we can't take that offer if you put protection on the pick like a lot of teams do."

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I think you and Sacco were the only men on earth who thought Kobascrew would be a legit top 6 winger. He was paid like a grinder and he's excelled in that roll.
I don't think he is a top 6 winger only, I think he is a top nine winger, but what his game is to bring a bit of offense. He's not big enough to be a consisten gritty winger one a 3rd or 4th line. He's like Porter. He just doesn't have the physical tools to play that role by itself consistently without providing scoring. He's played well in that role the last few games, and I could be wrong, but I don't see him exceling in that non scoring roll by itself the whole season or multiple seasons. The only reason he wasn't paid like a top six winger in the offseasons was because every GM saw injuries have really slowed him down from his 20 goal a season pace.

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A win is a win. Hendricks has nothing to do with this move if we're just judging each move. Porter's been better than Wolski is the point and that's not accounting for the great 20 games we got from Mueller and his potential impact if he ever fully recovers the way Crosby and Bergeron have/are.
I don't think you really got my point, but it's not a big enough deal to really get into. I'm fine without Porter that's the point. Another player like ones Sherman shouldn't have let go would play his role better.

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Smyth's been the withering old man the last two years. This year he's having a renaissance season but I think playing in Edmonton again is a huge part of that. Doubt he'd have the same fire if he were still playing with us. Plus our D would be pretty awful if we swapped Quincey for Smyth right now.
I disagree on both accounts, but not enough to prolong the argument over.

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Hannan was extremely mediocre as a top pairing guy for us, similar to how Quincey would struggle if we were forced to play him on the top pairing without EJ on a regular basis. This isn't to say Hannan's a mediocre defender, but he's a good solid #4, which doesn't help a good awful defense lacking a 1, 2 and 3.
Maybe I'm not really getting what you're sayingm but I strongly disagree with this. Quincey played his best hockey by far when paired with Hannan. Hannan can hold his own on a top pairing if he's got the right partner. Quincey isn't that partner. They make a good 2nd pairing, not 1st. If he was paired with EJ, it would look much better.

We're getting farther away from the point though and starting to argue the merit of individual moves.

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It's called management, you get blamed for your subordinates screw ups and you get credit for their success. The Scouting staff falls under that umbrella.
This would be true if he were the true captain of the ship in all it's forms. He's not. He's more like the defacto commander because PL doesn't want to commit all his time to the duties of a full time GM so he makes certain decisions that have to do with the long term direction of the team, and they have always implemented the approach to let the director of amateur scouting make the picks based on BPA. He's not the head chef, he's the head cook, and he plays a role just like most everyone else in management for the Avs.

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I really do think you expected a lot more from these trades than was reasonable, that's why you say they "have not worked out as they were billed" while I'm fully satisfied with the players we've brought in, even when we had to pay what they were worth.
Don't take this as condescending, but perhaps the difference may have more to do with your expectations being too low or non existent. That is the impression I am starting to get.

Like I just said, I don't think he has the same duties and roles of a normal old school GM. It's more the new school approach that some teams have where you have a group of "hockey guys" make recommendations on players, and the President makes the long term decisions to make sure the recipe is in tact, and the defacto GM works with the other GM's on trades and such. It's not even clear if he's still responsible for contract negotiations because that is usually the assistant GM's role, although since he has a lack of regular GM duties I'd bet he still does this.

If this is true, then he's judged on the value he gets in his negotiations, which is not good at all. He's not doing well IMO working with the group making recommendations on who to let go and who to go after, but that I would say is more subjective and needs some time on certain moves like EJ and Varly. At best this is where the idea of "he hasn't completely screwed up with personel decisions" comes into play. That's not good enough for my expectations, maybe it is for others.

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12-02-2011, 04:00 PM
  #236
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Siemens doesn't project to be similar to O'brien. I'm not going to go over all the reasons why, there's plenty of scouting reports around, not to mention you could just watch the Blades play, but if Pracey felt that way do you really think we'd take him at 11? The rest of our management may be questionable, but Pracey has proven himself.
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I disagree, IMO Siemens' low end potential, that being if he makes no strides offensively at all, is already a better player than O'Brien.
I wouldn't say a better O'Brien or Quincey are his low end potential. That's pretty optimistc over a mostly defensive D-man that usually have a lot of proving to do before establishing themself as a true NHLer.

IMO those two guys are a good middle ground. I'd say his low end potential is a physical 5th or 6th D with no offense at all. O'Brien and Quincey have some decent offense, and a good physical defensive game. This is what Siemens seems like to me. I'd say his high end potential would be a bigger Adam Foote type when he was contributing a bit offensively.

My point about Siemens though was that he doesn't really have more "raw talent" than Shattenkirk as mentioned, the way an offensive defenseman would. He has very good physical tools to go with some decent talent and what could be good awareness.

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12-02-2011, 05:58 PM
  #237
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This is obviously breaking down to just a matter of opinion, but I really don't see how you can say that trade is a win right now. Varly looked very good his first few games, then went into that kind of Anderson mode where he wasn't really playing terribly but he wasn't making big saves and letting in a couple he probably should have had. Now he's put together a couple games where he was making the saves at key points again to get wins. That by itself doesn't instil confidence in giving up a possible lottery pick and an additional 2nd. A somewhat solid goalie is not worth the price he gave up, he has to be the clear cut answer to our number one goalie problems for at least a few years to come.

I don't mind seeing a young player not consistently dominate. That consistency will come with time as he gains experience and continues growing. He's shown us enough times the player he can become on a regular basis in the future and that a player I'd spend a top 10 pick on any year. Especially given how terrible this organization's track record has been since Roy. Plus his developmental track lines up almost perfectly with Duchene, O'Reilly, EJ and Landeskogs where they'll all start break into their primes as consistently elite players over the next 2 to 3 years. That in and of itself is also valuable as that's not something we could have gotten from any Goalie draft pick, without this trade we'd be banking on a future trade or Pickard to develop much faster than anyone should expect.

The KHL side of things is huge. It was out there and a lot of people knew he could bolt. I don't really buy the idea McPhee would rather trade him the next season. His value would be near nothing if the last thing he showed was an inconsistent injury prone young NHL career and then a year in the KHL. Sherman let him talk him into the idea that he didn't really want to trade him. It's the old, "No, no we don't really want to trade him. Well what would you offer? Oh, no no you'll have to give us at least your 1st and a 2nd. Oh no we can't take that offer if you put protection on the pick like a lot of teams do."

That may have been McPhee's thinking but I was just relying my own thoughts on the matter. If I had 3 young goalies who all looked like they could be starters down the road on a SC caliber roster and one of them offered to solve my PT dilemma by going to Russia to develop for a couple of season, I would be thrilled. Gives me time to be patient and make the best decision by testing out Neuvirth and seeing where his ceiling lies and giving Holtby a chance to grow with less pressure for me to make a decision now. That way I can see if Neuvirth's the answer and if he is then I can deal away Varly or Holtby for the package GM GM got, and if he's not I still have two youngins gunning for the job if Holtby's ready and if not you bring back Varly to be the starter for a year to prove that he's the guy to hold onto. That team isn't ailing for talent right now so they can afford to be patient with their goalie situation to make sure they end up with the best guy and can then capitalize on the other quality guys later.

I don't think he is a top 6 winger only, I think he is a top nine winger, but what his game is to bring a bit of offense. He's not big enough to be a consisten gritty winger one a 3rd or 4th line. He's like Porter. He just doesn't have the physical tools to play that role by itself consistently without providing scoring. He's played well in that role the last few games, and I could be wrong, but I don't see him exceling in that non scoring roll by itself the whole season or multiple seasons. The only reason he wasn't paid like a top six winger in the offseasons was because every GM saw injuries have really slowed him down from his 20 goal a season pace.

Kobasew has been bringing enough offense for the roles he's playing right now and it's the role he should've been playing since Sacco decided to start tinkering with the lines. If you were expecting anything more you've let those 20 goal seasons oh so long ago create unrealistic expectations.

I don't think you really got my point, but it's not a big enough deal to really get into. I'm fine without Porter that's the point. Another player like ones Sherman shouldn't have let go would play his role better.

The marginal difference between porter and hendricks is so insignicant. Sherman has a competent player playing the role, a player much younger than the guys you've been griping about Sherman letting go. Still Porter is a reasonable addition alongside Peter Mueller for Wolski and that trade left the Avs better than they would've been without it.

I disagree on both accounts, but not enough to prolong the argument over.

Maybe I'm not really getting what you're sayingm but I strongly disagree with this. Quincey played his best hockey by far when paired with Hannan. Hannan can hold his own on a top pairing if he's got the right partner. Quincey isn't that partner. They make a good 2nd pairing, not 1st. If he was paired with EJ, it would look much better.

I think Hannan is just not an ideal top pairing guy, I like Hejda a bit better and don't think he's a serious solution for the top line either, even if he does get his head out of his ass and starts playing the way he did last game and in Columbus again. They can do alright but they're mediocre top pairing guys and profile more as good solid 3/4 dmen. My point being that while Hannan was a solid player he wasn't a tremendous loss as he simply was not put in a position to succeed where he could be the clean up guy on a 2nd or 3rd pairing. The play Flash was showing before his health-issues was well worth the price paid for it, even if it ended up not helping the team right now because I can't blame Sherman for not having the prescience to forsee Flash's turn in health.

We're getting farther away from the point though and starting to argue the merit of individual moves.

If you're going to ***** about a GM you need to look at the individual moves and see how they fit the big picture at the time they were made. In large part what happens after that is out of a GMs hands, so I hate to judge things in hindsight like the Mueller trade which I think was a tremendous steal at the time despite now knowing that Mueller would get knocked out by concussions for a very long time.

This would be true if he were the true captain of the ship in all it's forms. He's not. He's more like the defacto commander because PL doesn't want to commit all his time to the duties of a full time GM so he makes certain decisions that have to do with the long term direction of the team, and they have always implemented the approach to let the director of amateur scouting make the picks based on BPA. He's not the head chef, he's the head cook, and he plays a role just like most everyone else in management for the Avs.

If that's the direction you're going to take this then we'll never get anywhere since we can't know exactly what Sherman has the authority to do and what he doesn't.

Don't take this as condescending, but perhaps the difference may have more to do with your expectations being too low or non existent. That is the impression I am starting to get.

This may be true. The team's really young, I do in general give young players the benefit of the doubt unless there's blatant issues like a completely apathy towards the game or playing scared. So my expectations are to see flashes from the young guys and for them to learn how to string those flashes of great play together for longer. We've seen flashes from the key pieces that'll make us a contender down the road so i'm not really disappointed.

Like I just said, I don't think he has the same duties and roles of a normal old school GM. It's more the new school approach that some teams have where you have a group of "hockey guys" make recommendations on players, and the President makes the long term decisions to make sure the recipe is in tact, and the defacto GM works with the other GM's on trades and such. It's not even clear if he's still responsible for contract negotiations because that is usually the assistant GM's role, although since he has a lack of regular GM duties I'd bet he still does this.

If this is true, then he's judged on the value he gets in his negotiations, which is not good at all. He's not doing well IMO working with the group making recommendations on who to let go and who to go after, but that I would say is more subjective and needs some time on certain moves like EJ and Varly. At best this is where the idea of "he hasn't completely screwed up with personel decisions" comes into play. That's not good enough for my expectations, maybe it is for others.
I think under his steward ship the team has acquired the pieces to become a stanley cup contender when the core players reach their primes which is the prime task of a rebuilding GM. His trades have done well, Cohen-Hunwick not withstanding, since it ultimately doesn't matter, a mediocre prospect for a mediocre PMD.

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I wouldn't say a better O'Brien or Quincey are his low end potential. That's pretty optimistc over a mostly defensive D-man that usually have a lot of proving to do before establishing themself as a true NHLer.

IMO those two guys are a good middle ground. I'd say his low end potential is a physical 5th or 6th D with no offense at all. O'Brien and Quincey have some decent offense, and a good physical defensive game. This is what Siemens seems like to me. I'd say his high end potential would be a bigger Adam Foote type when he was contributing a bit offensively.

My point about Siemens though was that he doesn't really have more "raw talent" than Shattenkirk as mentioned, the way an offensive defenseman would. He has very good physical tools to go with some decent talent and what could be good awareness.
Maybe you've seen a lot of Siemens to say with more certainty but from the few games I've watched in ****** quality and what I've read about him his offensive game is much better than you're giving credit for. His skating sets him aside from guys like O'Brien and his offensive game is much more solid than you're giving him credit for. With his age and our oppurtunity to be patient with him, he's got the talent to become a brent seabrook-esque defender, with more of an offensive game.

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12-02-2011, 06:17 PM
  #238
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Anyone who thinks that McPhee didn't bend Sherm the worm over prison style in the varly trade is delusional.

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12-02-2011, 06:26 PM
  #239
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Whenever you get upset with Sherman, just think of Doug MacLean, who said that scouts can get all picks but the first rounders because that was his and then drafted Klesla (4th overall), Leclaire (8th overall), Nash (1st overall), Zherdev (4th overall), Picard (8th overall), Brule (6th overall) and Brassard (6th overall) as GM.

After running that franchise into the ground he has the balls to brag about drafting Rick Nash every chance he gets.

Sometimes Greg from Accounting isn't all that bad.

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12-02-2011, 06:33 PM
  #240
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Whenever you get upset with Sherman, just think of Doug MacLean, who said that scouts can get all picks but the first rounders because that was his and then drafted Klesla (4th overall), Leclaire (8th overall), Nash (1st overall), Zherdev (4th overall), Picard (8th overall), Brule (6th overall) and Brassard (6th overall) as GM.

After running that franchise into the ground he has the balls to brag about drafting Rick Nash every chance he gets.

Sometimes Greg from Accounting isn't all that bad.
I was thinking the same thing when it was brought up in another thread. MacLean was terrible, much worse than Sherman, and those wastes of 1st round picks are just a few examples.

Howson hasn't been much better either, although at least he tried to get Nash some help with the Carter trade.

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12-02-2011, 06:37 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
I was thinking the same thing when it was brought up in another thread. MacLean was terrible, much worse than Sherman, and those wastes of 1st round picks are just a few examples.

Howson hasn't been much better either, although at least he tried to get Nash some help with the Carter trade.
In Howson's defense, he was put in the unenviable position of being a guy who couldn't afford to make a single mistake. Unfortunately, he's already made a few.

The Carter/Wisniewski deals were pure desperation, and unfortunately not well thought out--but something tells me ownership did more than a little nudging there. The organization realized way too late that Steve Mason isn't a franchise goalie, not even close.

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12-02-2011, 06:41 PM
  #242
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Columbus are much better than they have shown this far. Mason being horrible, Carter injured and Wisiniewki stupidly getting suspended landed them in a hole they won't get out of.

It's not a great looking team but ok. Defense is unimpressive but Nikitin for Russell was a good trade. I think they needed solid boring defensive D more than Cumiskeyesque offense. The goaltender situation is something that they need to fix. You can't start Sanford every single game.

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12-06-2011, 12:29 AM
  #243
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What's stupid is, Flash is exactly what we need. Have you seen him play in Florida? He's killing it. Can't blame Sherman if Flash's illness prevented him from playing here, but if it was about the money, that's really ****** up. Duchene playing with him, and the ROR line would've been absolutely insane.

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12-06-2011, 12:52 AM
  #244
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What's stupid is, Flash is exactly what we need. Have you seen him play in Florida? He's killing it. Can't blame Sherman if Flash's illness prevented him from playing here, but if it was about the money, that's really ****** up. Duchene playing with him, and the ROR line would've been absolutely insane.
Well...the money IS a problem. If Flash gets another PM, and I pray he doesn't, that contract suddenly looks very weighty. It's a gamble the Panthros are thankfully winning in spades right now, and I hope it continues.

I maintain the Avs better have at least put in an honest effort to re-sign him if he wanted to stay as he and his agent claiimed. If they failed, that's fine. If they didn't even try, that's not okay. Unfortunately we'll never know the truth.

Still not ready to retract my earlier statements re: Sherman. But recent play has at least calmed me down a bit.

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12-06-2011, 01:34 AM
  #245
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Well...the money IS a problem. If Flash gets another PM, and I pray he doesn't, that contract suddenly looks very weighty. It's a gamble the Panthros are thankfully winning in spades right now, and I hope it continues.

I maintain the Avs better have at least put in an honest effort to re-sign him if he wanted to stay as he and his agent claiimed. If they failed, that's fine. If they didn't even try, that's not okay. Unfortunately we'll never know the truth.

Still not ready to retract my earlier statements re: Sherman. But recent play has at least calmed me down a bit.

I fear that we may have missed out on a piece that championship teams acquire that really helps them on the path to a championship. Kinda like Chicago trading for Sharp. They had no idea he was going to turn into the player he did, but they knew the talent was there. He's probably not going to get to Sharp's level, but still, it was a win for us that we no longer have. You're supposed to build around your best players. Flash was the only player that our best player had 100% consistent chemistry with. So sad.

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12-06-2011, 04:34 AM
  #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
Well...the money IS a problem. If Flash gets another PM, and I pray he doesn't, that contract suddenly looks very weighty. It's a gamble the Panthros are thankfully winning in spades right now, and I hope it continues.

I maintain the Avs better have at least put in an honest effort to re-sign him if he wanted to stay as he and his agent claiimed. If they failed, that's fine. If they didn't even try, that's not okay. Unfortunately we'll never know the truth.

Still not ready to retract my earlier statements re: Sherman. But recent play has at least calmed me down a bit.
http://blogs.denverpost.com/avs/2011...-at-best/7462/

I fully believe that the avs didn't make an effort to re-sign flash and were counting on mules to fill his spot in the top 6. And wasn't flash making 2.5M last season? I bet if the avs offered him 3M he would still be playing for the avs. I bet flash's agent couldn't believe that the panthers was offering him 4M a year, but good for him. He deserves that and more.

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12-09-2011, 03:33 PM
  #247
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http://blogs.denverpost.com/avs/2011...-hunwick/9096/

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The more I talk to people around the league – smart, wired-in people, at least a few anyway – the more they ask me “Who is in charge in Colorado? Who is making the big decisions there? We don’t know who it is anymore.”
This is probably the nicest thing I can say about Sherman right now. I don't know if the bad moves this team has done are his fault. By the same token, I don't know if the good moves are his either. All part of the underlying problem: An organization that values secrecy above all things, and employs a guy to do their PR/marketing who's better at keeping things under wraps than actual communication, and a president who won't take the reins, but seemingly won't let them go entirely either.

It just seems like a very bloated, bureaucratic, and indecisive organization right now. I hope that changes soon, but I'm not holding my breath.

This is why I love the Broncos right now. They have a guy in charge who promised transparency and honesty, and he's delivering, even to his own detriment. I'm not saying the Avs have to let us know EVERYTHING that's going on, I just get the impression they value secrecy and loyalty over actual ability when it comes to the decision-makers there.

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12-09-2011, 03:36 PM
  #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
http://blogs.denverpost.com/avs/2011...-hunwick/9096/



This is probably the nicest thing I can say about Sherman right now. I don't know if the bad moves this team has done are his fault. By the same token, I don't know if the good moves are his either. All part of the underlying problem: An organization that values secrecy above all things, and employs a guy to do their PR/marketing who's better at keeping things under wraps than actual communication, and a president who won't take the reins, but seemingly won't let them go entirely either.

It just seems like a very bloated, bureaucratic, and indecisive organization right now. I hope that changes soon, but I'm not holding my breath.

This is why I love the Broncos right now. They have a guy in charge who promised transparency and honesty, and he's delivering, even to his own detriment. I'm not saying the Avs have to let us know EVERYTHING that's going on, I just get the impression they value secrecy and loyalty over actual ability when it comes to the decision-makers there.
Where did you read this quote cause it's not on the article you have linked us.

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12-09-2011, 03:40 PM
  #249
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Where did you read this quote cause it's not on the article you have linked us.
Oh, my bad...here it is:

http://blogs.denverpost.com/avs/2011...question/9085/

I mistakenly posted the blog there afterwards where Dater had to clarify his remarks on Hunwick and answer why the Avs just didn't call up Malone sooner.

Despite the Avs' answer, how they could have been caught unawares like they were is just plain ridiculous. They should've known Porter had a very good chance of facing a suspension after that hit.

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12-20-2011, 11:57 AM
  #250
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I'm starting to soften my stance on Sherman even more in light of what's happening in Montreal. It is full-on panic mode there and getting uglier by the second.

Quick, Habs, trade us Moen and Kostitsyn for Hunwick and a 5th rounder!

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