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Greg Sherman & Co - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM

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06-29-2012, 10:14 AM
  #401
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Originally Posted by Ceremony View Post
According to a post here 2008 was the last draft under the old staff, so Pracey would have been in place since then.
Thanks. Reading these posts, it looks like Pracey arrived right after the 2008 draft and then Sherman and Sacco arrived just before the 2009 draft.

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06-29-2012, 01:10 PM
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According to a post here 2008 was the last draft under the old staff, so Pracey would have been in place since then.
Yea, I can't find any info on it, but wasn't there one year (possibly 2008) where they had a stop gap guy making the picks for the Avs? Or maybe it was PL, I can't remember. I seem to recall something about an announcement that Pracey was about to take over as the Head of Amateur Scouting, but he wasn't going to be making the picks that year.

Guess I wasn't as on point in the previous Francois Giguerre thread. Should have mentioned something about the transition there. That's why I started doing these, to be able to look back on this stuff, and see who did what.

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06-29-2012, 04:07 PM
  #403
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
Yea, I can't find any info on it, but wasn't there one year (possibly 2008) where they had a stop gap guy making the picks for the Avs? Or maybe it was PL, I can't remember. I seem to recall something about an announcement that Pracey was about to take over as the Head of Amateur Scouting, but he wasn't going to be making the picks that year.

Guess I wasn't as on point in the previous Francois Giguerre thread. Should have mentioned something about the transition there. That's why I started doing these, to be able to look back on this stuff, and see who did what.
Teddy Sampson (Samson?). Came over from St Louis and he was also in charge in '07. I remember that because of the best draftspecial we will ever see (Blues in '07) and Jarmo and Co were praising his pick of Shattenkirk. I thought Pracey took over before the '08 draft because of the off the board/reach pick from the OHL we made in the second round (Gaunce), but I guess not....

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06-30-2012, 02:05 PM
  #404
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Teddy Sampson (Samson?). Came over from St Louis and he was also in charge in '07. I remember that because of the best draftspecial we will ever see (Blues in '07) and Jarmo and Co were praising his pick of Shattenkirk. I thought Pracey took over before the '08 draft because of the off the board/reach pick from the OHL we made in the second round (Gaunce), but I guess not....
Yea I think that's the guy I'm thinking of. I remember a guy coming over from St Louis for a short period of time before Pracey.

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07-03-2012, 01:01 PM
  #405
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Sherman is absolutely killing it with his contracts, especially RFA's. The only player on the team (most likely including O'Reilly and McGinn) set to make more than $4M for the next two years is Stastny, and he'll likely make less or be let go at that point.

The Avs are in a great position to have depth, and top tier players with big salaries. Now they just need to bring them in somehow.

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07-03-2012, 01:46 PM
  #406
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
Sherman is absolutely killing it with his contracts, especially RFA's. The only player on the team (most likely including O'Reilly and McGinn) set to make more than $4M for the next two years is Stastny, and he'll likely make less or be let go at that point.

The Avs are in a great position to have depth, and top tier players with big salaries. Now they just need to bring them in somehow.
Agree 100% with you. He has done an excellent job contract-wise and trade-wise as well I would say.

Everybody here is praising Sherman on how he is handling the contracts and with reasons, As I said he has done fantastic. However I think we should also praise the players for accepting contracts that helps the Avs positioned themselves very well for the future. It would be so easy for them to ask for more using other players' contracts as examples. I think it shows how much they want to stay together for the long haul.

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07-03-2012, 02:02 PM
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Agree 100% with you. He has done an excellent job contract-wise and trade-wise as well I would say.

Everybody here is praising Sherman on how he is handling the contracts and with reasons, As I said he has done fantastic. However I think we should also praise the players for accepting contracts that helps the Avs positioned themselves very well for the future. It would be so easy for them to ask for more using other players' contracts as examples. I think it shows how much they want to stay together for the long haul.
Yea absolutely. And they sign early too. They don't even try to negotiate through the summer. It's like Sherm's got some kind of kool-aid he gets them to drink when they sit down in his office.

Look at Downie. He was expected to be asking for a boatload of unwarranted money from Tampa. That's why they traded him. Same was probably thought by St. Louis about EJ when they were considering trading him.

Sherm makes solid moves for players, and then signs them to good deals. He shipped out Quincey for Downie because they expected Quincey was gonna insist on a lot of money, the same way Tampa thought about Downie. Now EJ and Downie are both signed, and Quincey is still negotiating with Detroit. Lets see how his deal compares to EJ and Downie's.

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07-03-2012, 02:13 PM
  #408
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Originally Posted by VikingAv View Post
Teddy Sampson (Samson?). Came over from St Louis and he was also in charge in '07. I remember that because of the best draftspecial we will ever see (Blues in '07) and Jarmo and Co were praising his pick of Shattenkirk. I thought Pracey took over before the '08 draft because of the off the board/reach pick from the OHL we made in the second round (Gaunce), but I guess not....
Just found this old article by the way on accident, from Sadowski at the RMN. Hampson turned over the duties to Pracey after the 08' draft.

Remember the good old days when there were to two options for Avalanche coverage?

BTW, Samson? Haha, I knew that sounded funny for some reason. Kept thinking about Dave Chappelle's character in Half Baked.

Quote:
"It was a very deep draft," Hampson said. "We were getting into the mid- and late rounds with players that we felt very positive about, and I think other teams felt that way. We feel that we added a good young group to the Avalanche roster. We're looking forward to watching them develop."

Hampson said he will work under current Avalanche scouts Rick Pracey and Alan Hepple next season.

"I'll travel just as much, but the responsibility of being head scout . . . it's time to turn it over," he said. "I'm happy with who we're turning it over to."
http://m.rockymountainnews.com/news/...rs-defensemen/

BTW, Samson? Haha, I knew that sounded funny for some reason. Kept thinking of this guy.



Last edited by Foppa2118: 08-05-2012 at 03:44 PM.
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07-03-2012, 02:16 PM
  #409
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If Sacco could catch up to the skill level doing his job that Sherman has, we could be in good shape!

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08-04-2012, 09:33 PM
  #410
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The ONLY record that matters for Greg Sherman, is the following. Get this right, and everything else follows:-

(Note he was named head GM in June of 2009)

2009/2010 - 12th out of 30 (out in 1st round of play-offs)
2010/2011 - 29th out of 30
2011/2012 - 20th out of 30

Not once in his three year career at the helm, has his team been in the top 39% of the entire NHL.

Then again, his stats look gold compared to those of his self appointed coach, in Joe Sacco.

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08-05-2012, 10:59 AM
  #411
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drizzt1 View Post
The ONLY record that matters for Greg Sherman, is the following. Get this right, and everything else follows:-

(Note he was named head GM in June of 2009)

2009/2010 - 12th out of 30 (out in 1st round of play-offs)
2010/2011 - 29th out of 30
2011/2012 - 20th out of 30

Not once in his three year career at the helm, has his team been in the top 39% of the entire NHL.

Then again, his stats look gold compared to those of his self appointed coach, in Joe Sacco.
This is a terrible way to judge Sherman's tenure as Colorado's GM.

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08-05-2012, 12:49 PM
  #412
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Originally Posted by Ivan13 View Post
This is a terrible way to judge Sherman's tenure as Colorado's GM.
Agree. Here's how I see it: Francois Giguere handcuffed this team with bad move after bad move (I don't think there's any debate about that) and Sherman has had a lot of digging out to do.

- I'd rather have Steve Downie than Kyle "Mr. Positive" Quincey

- I'd rather have EJ (though I'm not an EJ fan, yet) than Chris "play myself into getting benched in the playoffs" Stewart ----Yes, Shattenkirk hurts, but I truly believe the organization saw the same player in Elliott and Barrie, thus Shat was expendable and was a victim of "you have to give something up to get something"

- I'd rather have Jamie McGinn than TJ Galliardi (or at least TJ's relationship with our coach) even if we had to give up Daniel Winnik, too.

- I'd rather have the potential and the presence on the ice of PA Parenteau than the hope for a presence on the ice, then disappointment because the presence is in the press box, of Peter Mueller.

I like the way our team is being built for, hopefully, a long term success in the future. I just hope the players we're counting on to make the jump to the next level can realize their potential and make the jump.

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08-05-2012, 04:24 PM
  #413
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Originally Posted by SuperTheGreat View Post
Agree. Here's how I see it: Francois Giguere handcuffed this team with bad move after bad move (I don't think there's any debate about that) and Sherman has had a lot of digging out to do.

- I'd rather have Steve Downie than Kyle "Mr. Positive" Quincey

- I'd rather have EJ (though I'm not an EJ fan, yet) than Chris "play myself into getting benched in the playoffs" Stewart ----Yes, Shattenkirk hurts, but I truly believe the organization saw the same player in Elliott and Barrie, thus Shat was expendable and was a victim of "you have to give something up to get something"

- I'd rather have Jamie McGinn than TJ Galliardi (or at least TJ's relationship with our coach) even if we had to give up Daniel Winnik, too.

- I'd rather have the potential and the presence on the ice of PA Parenteau than the hope for a presence on the ice, then disappointment because the presence is in the press box, of Peter Mueller.

I like the way our team is being built for, hopefully, a long term success in the future. I just hope the players we're counting on to make the jump to the next level can realize their potential and make the jump.
I've always said this is something that was blown out of proportion. He wasn't the best GM, but he didn't really handcuff the team either. They were just trying to rebuild on the fly, and it didn't work out. They couldn't bring in the right players to surround the top line guys, and never had a legit D-core, or goaltending, so as a result the team suffered and he was let go in favor of a new GM and a full rebuild.

The only long term deals he handed out were for Smyth and Hannan and regardless of how you view them, they were able to unload them on their deals. They were market value for both, and in the case of Smyth he came at a slight discount for the time. They were both the exact type of player the team needed, and even though Hannan ended up being a little overpaid for a defensive defenseman, they both contributed a lot to the team. They just didn't get much help.

The deals he signed, while it's obvious they weren't for the right players, weren't the crazy kind of deals people talk about. Even with a lower cap they weren't that high and the usual Avalanche shorter term. Clark two years at $1.5M, and then two years at $3.5M. Skrastins three years at $2.4M. Liles two years at $1.325M and then four years at $4.2M. Brunette one year at $1.6M. Leopold two years at $1.5M. Svatos one year at $1.2M. Foote two years at $3M.

Nothing crazy. Just not the right players. Not the right style, and gambles on older or injury prone guys. Aside from Smyth and Hannan they tried to get by on the cheap hoping for guys like Tucker, Arnason, Hlinka, Raycroft, Per Ledin, Tjarnqvist, and Brett McLean to fill roles that in the end they never really did.

They also never got enough out of Wolski and an injury prone Svatos, and the rest of their propsects they hoped could fill in never really did as guys like Stoa, Hensick, Macias, Burki, Weiman, Sertich, Fritsche, and Nigel Williams never really becamse NHLers.

It's also not clear if money was playing a factor even back then, and if they were only given money for Smyth and Hannan and nothing much else.

In the end, it was a result of trying to rebuild on the fly, and relying too much on sub par players IMO. The hockey ops group at the time just had the wrong plan, and wrong view of the type of players and style needed. Hence the new hockey ops group, the new GM, and a new concentration on drafting and bringing in better prospects and young players for a full rebuild.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=485549

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08-05-2012, 04:47 PM
  #414
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Originally Posted by Ivan13 View Post
This is a terrible way to judge Sherman's tenure as Colorado's GM.
I disagree mate - results both on and off the ice should be the only benchmark, shouldn't it?

Put it this way, if we continue to remain 20th - 29th, who will get fired at some point? The coach, and GM.

If we win, and become a main stay in the play-offs, they'll be re-inked.

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08-05-2012, 04:58 PM
  #415
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I've always said this is something that was blown out of proportion. He wasn't the best GM, but he didn't really handcuff the team either. They were just trying to rebuild on the fly, and it didn't work out.

Nothing crazy. Just not the right players. Not the right style, and gambles on older or injury prone guys. Aside from Smyth and Hannan they tried to get by on the cheap hoping for guys like Tucker, Arnason, Hlinka, Raycroft, Per Ledin, Tjarnqvist, and Brett McLean to fill roles that in the end they never really did.

They also never got enough out of Wolski and an injury prone Svatos, and the rest of their propsects they hoped could fill in never really did as guys like Stoa, Hensick, Macias, Burki, Weiman, Sertich, Fritsche, and Nigel Williams never really becamse NHLers.

In the end, it was a result of trying to rebuild on the fly, and relying too much on sub par players IMO. The hockey ops group at the time just had the wrong plan, and wrong view of the type of players and style needed. Hence the new hockey ops group, the new GM, and a new concentration on drafting and bringing in better prospects and young players for a full rebuild.
Good post. Fair enough points. Regardless, though, of whatever happened and whoever did it, we've got a hole to dig out of and improvements to make. My point wasn't really to rag on FG (though he was the guy in charge when the gigantic downhill slide started, possibly making him the scapegoat), rather to point out that the moves Sherman has made have seemed to me to improve on the team he had before each of the moves were made. It seems like it may be a long process, but his moves, for the most part, seem to be improving the core of the team if you look at them on player vs. player terms. Hopefully our current hockey ops group is working on the right plan and it turns out something like it did for the Nordiques as they transitioned into the Avs.

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08-05-2012, 05:02 PM
  #416
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Originally Posted by Drizzt1 View Post
I disagree mate - results both on and off the ice should be the only benchmark, shouldn't it?

Put it this way, if we continue to remain 20th - 29th, who will get fired at some point? The coach, and GM.

If we win, and become a main stay in the play-offs, they'll be re-inked.
For a rebuilding team it isn't the best way to judge, but for a team ready for contention (i.e us now) it is.
So Sherman+Sacco should get us into playoffs from now on for many consecutive seasons.
if they don't it is a failure and first Sacco, and if results don't improve after that, then Sherman should be canned.

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08-05-2012, 05:04 PM
  #417
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Originally Posted by Drizzt1 View Post
I disagree mate - results both on and off the ice should be the only benchmark, shouldn't it?

Put it this way, if we continue to remain 20th - 29th, who will get fired at some point? The coach, and GM.

If we win, and become a main stay in the play-offs, they'll be re-inked.
Given the state of the franchise when he took over this isn't a good way to judge him.

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08-05-2012, 05:07 PM
  #418
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Good post. Fair enough points. Regardless, though, of whatever happened and whoever did it, we've got a hole to dig out of and improvements to make. My point wasn't really to rag on FG (though he was the guy in charge when the gigantic downhill slide started, possibly making him the scapegoat), rather to point out that the moves Sherman has made have seemed to me to improve on the team he had before each of the moves were made. It seems like it may be a long process, but his moves, for the most part, seem to be improving the core of the team if you look at them on player vs. player terms. Hopefully our current hockey ops group is working on the right plan and it turns out something like it did for the Nordiques as they transitioned into the Avs.
I know Avs aren't exactly the most, well, open team when it comes to PR and the like, but a lot of teams owners / GM's write a piece at some point in the off season (some, straight after the team is eliminated, some throughout the off season).

I'd really love some form of mission statement, or projection from someone in our management.

I agree our teams "feels" like we are improving, even though our position in the league isn't.

That being said, I really think the time for results is, and should be at hand.

I also think ownership / management should be accountable now for these results.

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08-05-2012, 05:21 PM
  #419
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Originally Posted by Drizzt1 View Post
I disagree mate - results both on and off the ice should be the only benchmark, shouldn't it?

Put it this way, if we continue to remain 20th - 29th, who will get fired at some point? The coach, and GM.

If we win, and become a main stay in the play-offs, they'll be re-inked.
Sherman's first year was year one of a full rebuild. Judging him by the end of seasons standings is a horrible barometer. I'd say the first year you can even start to even factor that in is this upcoming season.

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08-05-2012, 05:46 PM
  #420
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Good post. Fair enough points. Regardless, though, of whatever happened and whoever did it, we've got a hole to dig out of and improvements to make. My point wasn't really to rag on FG (though he was the guy in charge when the gigantic downhill slide started, possibly making him the scapegoat).
You know, after thinking about it I'd just like to point out that I do think signing Blake and not finding a way to use that money to funnel to Forsberg was a bad move. Not sure of the numbers but pretty sure Blake was expensive and the $$ from his contract could have helped sign Forsberg. Also, when we signed Smyth and Hannan, I was super pumped. But, even though we did get out of their contracts eventually, we wouldn't have had to get out from under them if they hadn't turned out to be bad (or at least the wrong) moves, even if they were only bad due to the contracts.

Quote:
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That being said, I really think the time for results is, and should be at hand.

I also think ownership / management should be accountable now for these results.
I agree with the above. I'd like to see some of the promised solid results from our young guys this year. I also agree that, eventually, the guys in charge should have some accountability if the results aren't there. However, so should the players.

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08-05-2012, 06:21 PM
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There is considerable lag when it comes to building a team. You inherit a team with players on long contracts, players that were drafted by the previous management and most likely a team that was built with a somewhat different philosophy.

Sherman & Co have slowly shaped this team into something very different from the one they inherited. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be accountable for how the team is performing but just looking in the rear view mirror and not on the road ahead when trying to figure out if they are doing a good job seems a bit pointless.

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08-05-2012, 07:11 PM
  #422
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There is considerable lag when it comes to building a team. You inherit a team with players on long contracts, players that were drafted by the previous management and most likely a team that was built with a somewhat different philosophy.

Sherman & Co have slowly shaped this team into something very different from the one they inherited. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be accountable for how the team is performing but just looking in the rear view mirror and not on the road ahead when trying to figure out if they are doing a good job seems a bit pointless.
Agreed. I think he's done a good job improving on what he inherited, as stated before, and I expect more moves in the near future along the same lines. But, I can't help being a passionate fan and wanting the results to start coming. I'm not looking for a championship now, nor the big splash FA moves to get there now. I'd much rather see a team be built the right way and enjoy multiple years of success again. Just frustrating sometimes sitting on the promise of potential and waiting for the kids to develop into money players who can carry a team deep. And if there are multiple years of promise without delivery, then the recipe has to change. I've got a few more years in me of hope and potential.

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08-06-2012, 01:29 AM
  #423
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Originally Posted by Drizzt1 View Post
I disagree mate - results both on and off the ice should be the only benchmark, shouldn't it?

Put it this way, if we continue to remain 20th - 29th, who will get fired at some point? The coach, and GM.

If we win, and become a main stay in the play-offs, they'll be re-inked.
Ok, who do you think is a good GM?

Now let's say Howson got fired, and this new GM took his place for Columbus. Would you instantly expect them to make the playoffs, and if he didn't in three years he should be fired?

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08-06-2012, 02:30 AM
  #424
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Ok, who do you think is a good GM?
Ken Holland. Not only survived transition to a cap era, but thrived, and didn't use excuses along the way, like Avs management seem accustom to do of late.

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08-06-2012, 04:11 AM
  #425
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Ken Holland. Not only survived transition to a cap era, but thrived, and didn't use excuses along the way, like Avs management seem accustom to do of late.
Ken Holland seems to have lost his touch. Near everyone thought he was going to get Suter or Weber or some high profile defenseman but hasn't yet. Detroit fans seem to be disappointed in him right now. Detroit is regressing slowly as shown by their first round knock out this year. This is an interesting season for them where their prospects will either do well enough to keep the streak going or they have to retool. In short, Ken Holland isn't someone to base ourselves off of right now.

On topic, I think Sherman and co. have done well. This year I do expect playoffs. If not Sacco should go. Not overly convinced Sacco is a bad coach, not super keen on ripping on the players and coaching staff. It's not like Galiardi and Stewart have gone on to their teams and done super well. I'd like to see what he has in store for next season before we bring out the pikes.

Personally, would be happy if Sherman could get that guy to play beside EJ. Someone who could take some of the pressure off of him. Just doesn't seem though that anyone is really available for the pieces we have to trade.

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