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Greg Sherman & Co - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM

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01-28-2013, 11:31 AM
  #476
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I can't believe there are people who think the Smyth trade was a bad deal.

Again, the primary purpose of the deal was to clear salary. The fact that the team got a viable player in return (and one player not so viable, but oh well) was just a bonus. Quincey was then flipped for another player who made a big contribution the minute he arrived, so I'm at a loss as to how this was a bad trade.

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01-28-2013, 11:47 AM
  #477
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nevermind

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01-30-2013, 02:46 AM
  #478
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The one thing I don't think anyone can take away from Greg Sherman is how well he set the Avs up in goa long terml.

He paid a premium but at 24 Semyon Varlamov is already in the top half of goalies in the NHL and would be a Vezina contender on a better team. It was a hugely criticized trade that doesn't get enough recognition when it should, especially considering the messy situation Washington is currently dealing with in net.

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01-30-2013, 09:19 AM
  #479
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The one thing I don't think anyone can take away from Greg Sherman is how well he set the Avs up in goa long terml.

He paid a premium but at 24 Semyon Varlamov is already in the top half of goalies in the NHL and would be a Vezina contender on a better team. It was a hugely criticized trade that doesn't get enough recognition when it should, especially considering the messy situation Washington is currently dealing with in net.
Yep, I really think that the only people who overreacted to the trade, were the various posters here on HF. HF is the only place where a 1st round draft pick is worth more than a proven NHL Commodity.

I realize the pick was 11th overall, and that netted the Caps Filip Forsberg, someone who slipped in the draft, but it's funny to read some people's opinion after the picks were made that were now saying "Forsberg>Varlamov" when Fosberg had yet to even play an NHL game.

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01-30-2013, 10:36 AM
  #480
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Agreed and I am very sure that the defense he has set up is just temporarily.

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01-30-2013, 01:27 PM
  #481
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Originally Posted by Drizzt1 View Post
This. I personally think Sacco and the team ARE presently playing to their ability, and that ability has us bottom 15% of the league consistently.

People can compliment Sherman all they like, but Avs have a losing culture under him, and the present roster has the lowest skill set ceiling I've ever experienced as both a Quebec and Avs fan.

Basically, Shermy has made it ok for the players, coaches, fans and everyone else around this team to lose, and consistently. I absolutely adore this team. Always have, always will. I loved us before these players and coaches were in it, and will long after. At this stage of being a fan, whilst I love the brand, I most certainly don't like the players and staff in it.

Makes for one big pile of Avalanche mediocrity.
Agreed.

I'm not a fan of the overall sum of Sherman's trades, because they haven't made the team better than it would have been if the trades hadn't taken place.

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01-30-2013, 02:31 PM
  #482
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Originally Posted by S E P H View Post
Agreed and I am very sure that the defense he has set up is just temporarily.
Here's the thing...a few of these guys who should be "temporary" have stuck around too long. Much like Giguere signing stopgaps like Clark and Skrastins to long-term deals. Shane O'Brien was expected to sign elsewhere, yet here he is. Yeah, none of our defenders has an immovable deal, but I don't like the fact that we have a very bad defense, and I thought the Avs were trying to build a better defense, but if anything, it's gotten worse.

Bottom line, I'm sick and tired of the "promise" of a better team. I think we have been patient long enough. I want to see actual PROGRESS, and right now, this team is doing nothing but regressing from the small gains they made last season.

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01-30-2013, 06:26 PM
  #483
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Bottom line, I'm sick and tired of the "promise" of a better team. I think we have been patient long enough. I want to see actual PROGRESS, and right now, this team is doing nothing but regressing from the small gains they made last season.
This exactly. In year 4 of a rebuild, I don't expect us to be world beaters but I DO expect to see some type of progress. Instead we've essentially seen a series of trades and signing that have taken us laterally from being an awful team that was fast and high scoring to being an awful team that's slow and unskilled.

The overall lack of skill and creativity we see out there on an nightly basis can only be called appalling.

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01-31-2013, 11:46 PM
  #484
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I'll say this much--so far so good on the Parenteau signing.

Still think he gets docked for putting together such a terrible defense (that's not all on ownership, sorry) but I have to give him credit on PAP.

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02-01-2013, 01:52 PM
  #485
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It's hard to see progress when your top line is out. We'd be such a different team if Downie, RoR and Landy were in there. I hate making excuses just as much as the next guy, but facts are facts.

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02-01-2013, 01:59 PM
  #486
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It's hard to see progress when your top line is out. We'd be such a different team if Downie, RoR and Landy were in there. I hate making excuses just as much as the next guy, but facts are facts.
The absence of those guys doesn't explain why this defense is so abysmal. I'd rather have the small, speedy defense that got penned in the defensive zone and gave up a bunch of goals than the big, slow defense that gets penned in the defensive zone and gives up a bunch of goals. It was Sherman who essentially replaced Liles with Hejda. That's on him--not ownership.

Injuries have been this organization's excuse for years now. I won't accept that, especially since they could, very easily, sign a player to alleviate those injuries, but they refuse.

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02-01-2013, 02:30 PM
  #487
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I'll agree injuries are not really an excuse. My reasoning is that having injuries tests your depth, and looking at our organization, we really lack depth. If Duchene or Stastny get hurt we are looking at a 20 year old rookie filling in a top 6 role. For wing replacements the best we have is a small tweener who is best in a 4th line role where he can play with reckless abandon. On defense we have a glut of bottom pairing defensemen, and a top pairing guy. Only two young guys (that are signed and able to be called up) have better than #5 potential.

Looking at this team it is obvious the strategy being used. Find a core at any cost, and then build around it. The core is a #1D, #1&2C, #1G. The core pieces have been found no matter if Stastny or ROR are the #2C. Now it is just a matter of assembling the right pieces to surround that talent. What has probably hurt that quest is what we had to give up to get EJ and Varly (Stewart, Shattenkirk, Liles, and a mid 1st round pick).

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02-01-2013, 02:40 PM
  #488
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
The absence of those guys doesn't explain why this defense is so abysmal. I'd rather have the small, speedy defense that got penned in the defensive zone and gave up a bunch of goals than the big, slow defense that gets penned in the defensive zone and gives up a bunch of goals. It was Sherman who essentially replaced Liles with Hejda. That's on him--not ownership.

Injuries have been this organization's excuse for years now. I won't accept that, especially since they could, very easily, sign a player to alleviate those injuries, but they refuse.
I agree, our defense sucks. They are a bunch of pylons.

The three questionable things he has done IMO are-
1-Trade Liles and bring in who he did.
2-Keep Sacco on as a coach for as long as he has
3-Sign Jones to the contract he did (although it's the beginning of the season it's not looking good)

.....and maybe #4 - it appears someone pissed RoR off somehow.

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02-01-2013, 02:42 PM
  #489
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Originally Posted by henchman24 View Post
I'll agree injuries are not really an excuse. My reasoning is that having injuries tests your depth, and looking at our organization, we really lack depth. If Duchene or Stastny get hurt we are looking at a 20 year old rookie filling in a top 6 role. For wing replacements the best we have is a small tweener who is best in a 4th line role where he can play with reckless abandon. On defense we have a glut of bottom pairing defensemen, and a top pairing guy. Only two young guys (that are signed and able to be called up) have better than #5 potential.

Looking at this team it is obvious the strategy being used. Find a core at any cost, and then build around it. The core is a #1D, #1&2C, #1G. The core pieces have been found no matter if Stastny or ROR are the #2C. Now it is just a matter of assembling the right pieces to surround that talent. What has probably hurt that quest is what we had to give up to get EJ and Varly (Stewart, Shattenkirk, Liles, and a mid 1st round pick).
Yeah, I was going to say just this a while ago.

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02-01-2013, 03:48 PM
  #490
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Yeah, I was going to say just this a while ago.
It's important to have depth of course. But try to remove the top line any other team had during last season and see what happens. Landy-RoR-Downie might not be superstars but they were our top line. It's not like we are lacking three random forwards.

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02-01-2013, 10:18 PM
  #491
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It's important to have depth of course. But try to remove the top line any other team had during last season and see what happens. Landy-RoR-Downie might not be superstars but they were our top line. It's not like we are lacking three random forwards.
Yeah, I guess I was trying to say that same thing earlier in this thread.

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02-03-2013, 12:36 PM
  #492
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I agree, our defense sucks. They are a bunch of pylons.

The three questionable things he has done IMO are-
1-Trade Liles and bring in who he did.
2-Keep Sacco on as a coach for as long as he has
3-Sign Jones to the contract he did (although it's the beginning of the season it's not looking good)

.....and maybe #4 - it appears someone pissed RoR off somehow.
Honestly, i'd add not resigning Mueller or Flash.

Flash I could understand moreso since we still had Mueller at the time, but I don't understand why we didn't resign Mueller even with signing Paranteau. Hejduk is gone after next year, he had good chemistry with our players, and we stuck with him through his injury, and right when we gets healthy we let him go?

Another one year contract would've been fine, and I think Mueller would've been more than willing to sign a one year. Especially when you add onto the fact he's fine with giving 8 defenseman 1 way contracts and overpaying guys like Hunwick and SOB.

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02-03-2013, 03:15 PM
  #493
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Honestly, i'd add not resigning Mueller or Flash.

Flash I could understand moreso since we still had Mueller at the time, but I don't understand why we didn't resign Mueller even with signing Paranteau. Hejduk is gone after next year, he had good chemistry with our players, and we stuck with him through his injury, and right when we gets healthy we let him go?

Another one year contract would've been fine, and I think Mueller would've been more than willing to sign a one year. Especially when you add onto the fact he's fine with giving 8 defenseman 1 way contracts and overpaying guys like Hunwick and SOB.
Yeah, I don't know what I would have done with Mueller or Flash. Mueller I would have probably given him the one year contract, but he really is only one hit away from having his career ended, so I can understand their rationale somewhat. Flash I don't know enough about about. Could he have played here with his PE? Did he want to play here with his PE? Did he want to play here at all? I don't know.

Either way, a lot of question marks with both guys IMO.

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02-03-2013, 03:37 PM
  #494
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Honestly, i'd add not resigning Mueller or Flash.

Flash I could understand moreso since we still had Mueller at the time, but I don't understand why we didn't resign Mueller even with signing Paranteau. Hejduk is gone after next year, he had good chemistry with our players, and we stuck with him through his injury, and right when we gets healthy we let him go?

Another one year contract would've been fine, and I think Mueller would've been more than willing to sign a one year. Especially when you add onto the fact he's fine with giving 8 defenseman 1 way contracts and overpaying guys like Hunwick and SOB.
Management had very good reasons not to retain Wolski, Stewart, Fleischmann, and Mueller, I won't begrudge them that. Problem is if you're going to lose THAT much firepower, you need to do more to address the loss through other means. Parenteau was a step in the right direction, but that's far too little. It's my same gripe about the defense...it's fine if you want to deal the puckmovers, but then do something to address that loss. It's as if Sherman just doesn't understand how to create a balance.

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02-03-2013, 03:49 PM
  #495
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Management had very good reasons not to retain Wolski, Stewart, Fleischmann, and Mueller, I won't begrudge them that. Problem is if you're going to lose THAT much firepower, you need to do more to address the loss through other means. Parenteau was a step in the right direction, but that's far too little. It's my same gripe about the defense...it's fine if you want to deal the puckmovers, but then do something to address that loss. It's as if Sherman just doesn't understand how to create a balance.
Well I guess our top 6 has over the last few years moved Wolski, Stewart, Flash, and Mueller and replaced them with Landeskog, Parenteau, and Downie. If Landy/ROR/Downie (and Jones) were all playing I wouldn't really complain about the forward core they put together. Certainly a lack of skill and creativity but a number of good top 9 players nonetheless.

I think the same (healthy) forward core would look night and day better playing with better puck movement/transition from the blueline and a system that complimented that.

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02-03-2013, 10:51 PM
  #496
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Well I guess our top 6 has over the last few years moved Wolski, Stewart, Flash, and Mueller and replaced them with Landeskog, Parenteau, and Downie. If Landy/ROR/Downie (and Jones) were all playing I wouldn't really complain about the forward core they put together. Certainly a lack of skill and creativity but a number of good top 9 players nonetheless.

I think the same (healthy) forward core would look night and day better playing with better puck movement/transition from the blueline and a system that complimented that.
The thing is, there wasn't any need to let Flash and Mueller go. It would've been Landeskog, PAP, Downie, Flash/Mueller, McGinn, Jones. Playing with Duchene/Statsny/RoR. Just gives so many more options to find chemistry in between the lines and a lot more offensive threats.

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Yeah, I don't know what I would have done with Mueller or Flash. Mueller I would have probably given him the one year contract, but he really is only one hit away from having his career ended, so I can understand their rationale somewhat. Flash I don't know enough about about. Could he have played here with his PE? Did he want to play here with his PE? Did he want to play here at all? I don't know.

Either way, a lot of question marks with both guys IMO.
I know this sounds bad, but if he did get another concussion which ended his career, it would've only have been a one year contract. We had the cap space, hell even if we do have a budget it still would've been doable. The return would've been a surefire top 6 winger who had skill and size.

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02-04-2013, 01:19 AM
  #497
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The thing is, there wasn't any need to let Flash and Mueller go. It would've been Landeskog, PAP, Downie, Flash/Mueller, McGinn, Jones. Playing with Duchene/Statsny/RoR. Just gives so many more options to find chemistry in between the lines and a lot more offensive threats.

I know this sounds bad, but if he did get another concussion which ended his career, it would've only have been a one year contract. We had the cap space, hell even if we do have a budget it still would've been doable. The return would've been a surefire top 6 winger who had skill and size.
In Flash's case there was a good reason to play in the east (less travel) and away from Colorado (altitude). I don't know if the organization considered those factors or not but personally I'm glad that he is playing somewhere safer for himself. Sucks but it is what it is. The Mueller situation I really wish we had qualified him since it seemed he had finally gotten healthy but I guess they maybe saw his on again off again situation as a distraction to the team.

I don't begrudge trading Wolski one bit since he's been bad ever since, but I was definitely sad to see Stewart go. As Av-merican said though, its hard to find fault with their reasons for moving all these guys. But certainly their replacements haven't really provided that offense we need. I do personally think the change in defense cores and system is largely responsible for that though.

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02-04-2013, 01:27 AM
  #498
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Fleischmann has to have special treatment after each game since he bruises so easily. He has to wear a pressure suit when flying. I'm sure being in the East is more practical for him. It's not unreasonable to think he would have preferred going elsewhere no matter what, especially when Florida offered him a four year $18M deal. That's a lot of money for a guy that hadn't proved he could provide scoring on a consistent basis.

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02-04-2013, 11:32 PM
  #499
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I'm part of the "Fire Sherman" crowd now. I liked him but I was thinking. The trade for Varly was a thing every fool could have done. We gave up a lot. I still like the trade but I think our scouts were the ones who were the reason why we wanted Varly in the first place. The EJ trade was okay but I'm really missing Stewart and Shatty. Our team was so much better with Stewart in the lineup. The McGinn trade looked very good at first but is there anybody who doesn't regret the trade now? McGinn is useless. I like Sgarbossa but is he worth as much as Galiardi and Winnik? Downie trade was cool but it wasn't Sherman's idea. I liked the trades for Flash and Mueller but they aren't part of the team anymore. Flash for a good reason and I'm willing to call it bad luck, Mueller should be on our roster, though. PAP was a good signing, Mitchell wasn't bad. Looks more like our scouts made a good decision than like a great move by our GM, though.
Like I said, I liked Sherman. I'm simply beginning to have doubts.

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02-04-2013, 11:36 PM
  #500
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Just like Sacco, there is no point firing Sherman yet. Sakic isn't ready and you know they're just going to reshuffle someone else from within the organization. The biggest problems in this organization start at the top.

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