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Greg Sherman & Co - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM

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Old
02-04-2013, 11:37 PM
  #501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klozge View Post
The McGinn trade looked very good at first but is there anybody who doesn't regret the trade now? McGinn is useless. I like Sgarbossa but is he worth as much as Galiardi and Winnik?
Nobody should regret that trade.

Winnik was a UFA, and played 20 games with the Sharks before moving on. Galiardi hasn't done jack since the trade other than being a regular healthy scratch. The Avs robbed the Sharks. McGinn is useless? 6 points in his last 5 games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by klozge
Downie trade was cool but it wasn't Sherman's idea.
Whose idea was it then? It seems like if you like a trade, you'll find a way to take away any credit from Sherman even though he's the guy pulling the trigger.

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02-04-2013, 11:37 PM
  #502
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Originally Posted by klozge View Post
I'm part of the "Fire Sherman" crowd now. I liked him but I was thinking. The trade for Varly was a thing every fool could have done. We gave up a lot. I still like the trade but I think our scouts were the ones who were the reason why we wanted Varly in the first place. The EJ trade was okay but I'm really missing Stewart and Shatty. Our team was so much better with Stewart in the lineup. The McGinn trade looked very good at first but is there anybody who doesn't regret the trade now? McGinn is useless. I like Sgarbossa but is he worth as much as Galiardi and Winnik? Downie trade was cool but it wasn't Sherman's idea. I liked the trades for Flash and Mueller but they aren't part of the team anymore. Flash for a good reason and I'm willing to call it bad luck, Mueller should be on our roster, though. PAP was a good signing, Mitchell wasn't bad. Looks more like our scouts made a good decision than like a great move by our GM, though.
Like I said, I liked Sherman. I'm simply beginning to have doubts.
Wait....you don't like the McGinn trade???

Dudes got 6 points for us (to go along with his 8 posts) and leads the team in hits. Meanwhile in SJ, TJ Galiardi is the real definition of useless and Winnik wasn't re-signing so forget about him.

There is absolutely not a single reason not to like the McGinn trade.

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02-04-2013, 11:48 PM
  #503
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NothingLikeAnEJ View Post
Wait....you don't like the McGinn trade???

Dudes got 6 points for us (to go along with his 8 posts) and leads the team in hits. Meanwhile in SJ, TJ Galiardi is the real definition of useless and Winnik wasn't re-signing so forget about him.

There is absolutely not a single reason not to like the McGinn trade.
I loved the trade last year, I don't like it one bit this year.
Edit: And you should watch more Sharks games before you say Galiardi is useless.

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02-04-2013, 11:50 PM
  #504
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klozge View Post
I loved the trade last year, I don't like it one bit this year.
Edit: And you should watch more Sharks games before you say Galiardi is useless.
It wouldn't matter, he's not even playing.

How anyone could not like that trade is baffling to me.

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02-04-2013, 11:53 PM
  #505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NothingLikeAnEJ View Post
Wait....you don't like the McGinn trade???

Dudes got 6 points for us (to go along with his 8 posts) and leads the team in hits. Meanwhile in SJ, TJ Galiardi is the real definition of useless and Winnik wasn't re-signing so forget about him.

There is absolutely not a single reason not to like the McGinn trade.
Actually, there is a single reason not to like it. Dan Winnik was and still is a great defensive forward. That in and of itself isn't a big deal. But when you factor in the loss of Jay McClement and continued absence of Ryan O'Reilly, that's the team's three top defensive forwards from last season out of the lineup. Let's not forget all three played a big part in the penalty kill that came a long way towards redeeming itself in 2011-12.

As I said (and apparently keep saying) on these boards regarding the current state of the Avs, I don't begrudge the trade itself (I think McGinn is a great acquisition, and Sgarbossa might be as well) but rather the moves they made afterward to compound the loss of a key player. It's almost as if they painted themselves into a corner regarding the O'Reilly situation--the absence of one of those players wouldn't be so bad, the absence of all three is killing them, especially on the PK.

I'm in the FIRE SHERMAN crowd as well. Each trade/acquisition taken by itself isn't so bad, some are actually good. But put together, you have a team that can't kill penalties, has a lousy power play, can't score consistently, and lets opposing players camp out in the defensive zone. I'm sorry...was THIS the team that was supposed to be harder to play against? Now instead of pushing the Avs around, the opposition is just skating around them.

And the worst part: Despite being supposedly bigger and tougher and able to better deal out punishment, this squad has once again reverted to being a passive shot-blocking team....except now they're not even that good at it.

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02-05-2013, 12:01 AM
  #506
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It's honestly baffling how one thing compounds the other. First the defense from small weak defenders to a bunch of pylons. Then from a bunch of great bottom 6ers and PKers to nothing. Add that to the fact we let a bunch of skilled forwards walk when it's another component we're missing, and i'm not on the Sherman fan bus anymore.

I'm not on the firing squad yet, but really for all the good moves he makes, he makes a bunch of small mistakes which add up to a huge mistake.

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02-05-2013, 12:01 AM
  #507
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Originally Posted by The Mars Volchenkov View Post
It wouldn't matter, he's not even playing.

How anyone could not like that trade is baffling to me.
In which world isn't he playing? He is playing. He's not scoring, though. When I'm watching the Sharks play I'm thinking he's doing more than McGinn. And the argument that Winnik would have left the team anyway isn't a good one either. Chances are a different GM would have been able to re-sign him. Maybe he hadn't signed him in the first place but I don't want to make it too confusing.
Like I said, I liked Sherman but now I'm thinking I was wrong.

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02-05-2013, 12:07 AM
  #508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klozge View Post
In which world isn't he playing?
This current world. Healthy scratch the last 2 of the last 3 games.

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02-05-2013, 09:07 AM
  #509
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klozge View Post
I'm part of the "Fire Sherman" crowd now. I liked him but I was thinking. The trade for Varly was a thing every fool could have done. We gave up a lot. I still like the trade but I think our scouts were the ones who were the reason why we wanted Varly in the first place. The EJ trade was okay but I'm really missing Stewart and Shatty. Our team was so much better with Stewart in the lineup. The McGinn trade looked very good at first but is there anybody who doesn't regret the trade now? McGinn is useless. I like Sgarbossa but is he worth as much as Galiardi and Winnik? Downie trade was cool but it wasn't Sherman's idea. I liked the trades for Flash and Mueller but they aren't part of the team anymore. Flash for a good reason and I'm willing to call it bad luck, Mueller should be on our roster, though. PAP was a good signing, Mitchell wasn't bad. Looks more like our scouts made a good decision than like a great move by our GM, though.
Like I said, I liked Sherman. I'm simply beginning to have doubts.
So if I get you right, the trades you like are because of other FO personnel and the ones you don't like are because of Sherman. Got you!

People seem to forget that we are missing 4 of our top-9 forwards which 2 of them are very good defensively and the other two I would say are also above average defensively.

Do we need help on D? Yes of course but we are also missing Wilson which is our second best PMD. ROB unfortunately has regressed with the lockout but he is still good on PK. We need to play Barrie instead of SOB so he can get experience

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02-05-2013, 09:29 AM
  #510
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
Actually, there is a single reason not to like it. Dan Winnik was and still is a great defensive forward. That in and of itself isn't a big deal. But when you factor in the loss of Jay McClement and continued absence of Ryan O'Reilly, that's the team's three top defensive forwards from last season out of the lineup. Let's not forget all three played a big part in the penalty kill that came a long way towards redeeming itself in 2011-12.

As I said (and apparently keep saying) on these boards regarding the current state of the Avs, I don't begrudge the trade itself (I think McGinn is a great acquisition, and Sgarbossa might be as well) but rather the moves they made afterward to compound the loss of a key player. It's almost as if they painted themselves into a corner regarding the O'Reilly situation--the absence of one of those players wouldn't be so bad, the absence of all three is killing them, especially on the PK.

I'm in the FIRE SHERMAN crowd as well. Each trade/acquisition taken by itself isn't so bad, some are actually good. But put together, you have a team that can't kill penalties, has a lousy power play, can't score consistently, and lets opposing players camp out in the defensive zone. I'm sorry...was THIS the team that was supposed to be harder to play against? Now instead of pushing the Avs around, the opposition is just skating around them.

And the worst part: Despite being supposedly bigger and tougher and able to better deal out punishment, this squad has once again reverted to being a passive shot-blocking team....except now they're not even that good at it.
Bottom six forwards aren't difficult to acquire.

This team isn't losing because of its bottom six forwards.

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02-05-2013, 09:49 AM
  #511
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And if Sherman re-signed Winnik (giving him what he asked), people wouldn't be *****ing in a year two that he was making close to 2.5 million? If Winnik is worth 2.5, then what are players like Duchene, O'Reilly, McGinn, etc worth?

Or if Peter Mueller was eating almost 3 million of cap space, and perhaps stayed in the press box for another entire season, leaving many posters here to clamor that Sherman's an idiot to rely on such an injury prone player.

Ditto Flash. I don't know whether the rumours of Flash's health not being able to be sustained in Colorado are true, but he too just seemed like too big of a gamble, especially at 4.5 million for the next four years. I wonder if they would have signed PAP if they had Flash around. I know who I'd rather have. Not to mention, who is the winger that would have played with Flash-Duchene to make them not the softest line in the NHL?

And it is Sherman's fault that McClement wanted to play in his home province and took less money than he was offered in Colorado?

I can understand people missing Shattenkirk/Stewart, but for the rest of the players who have been shipped out, good riddance. None of them besides those two and Anderson/Elliott have gone on to be anything more impressive outside of Colorado. No pieces that have been let go are the difference between this roster being top of the West, or where the Avs sit right now.

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02-05-2013, 09:59 AM
  #512
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klozge View Post
In which world isn't he playing? He is playing. He's not scoring, though. When I'm watching the Sharks play I'm thinking he's doing more than McGinn. And the argument that Winnik would have left the team anyway isn't a good one either. Chances are a different GM would have been able to re-sign him. Maybe he hadn't signed him in the first place but I don't want to make it too confusing.
Like I said, I liked Sherman but now I'm thinking I was wrong.
In what world are you evaluating that trade is the real question? Gali has 0 goals and 2 assists on the season, and has been a healthy scratch. McGinn has 1 goal, 5 assists, has hit 8 crossbars, and has been good on the forecheck, and also dealt out some big hits. I'd trade Gali and Winnik for him straight up, let alone add Sgarbossa and Connoly, and I'm a fan of Gali's who didn't really like the trade when it happened.

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02-05-2013, 10:11 AM
  #513
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IMO Galiardi is just one of those frustrating players that just can't take that next step. This is why people constantly overrate him. He has enough talent to be a 2nd line wing and put up 40-45 points a season, while being an absolute pest to play against. A player that anybody would love to have on their team. Unfortunately, he hasn't and more than likely won't put it all together. I don't know his work habits off the ice, but on the ice there are some games where he plays awesome. Then for the next 4-5 games it seems like he doesn't care and floats along the outside. If he is to stay effective as a player he has to play a gritty game all the time. Which brings up another issue to his game, he constantly gets banged up when he plays that sort of game. Gali is now 24, what you see in his game is probably what you are going to get. Basically a 4th line player that can substitute a couple lines ahead in a pinch.

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02-05-2013, 10:27 AM
  #514
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McGinn for Galiardi was a steal.

And Sgarbossa for a Winnik who was going to be UFA was an even better deal.

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02-05-2013, 10:52 AM
  #515
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Quote:
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Bottom six forwards aren't difficult to acquire.

This team isn't losing because of its bottom six forwards.
True, but fact is this management team compounds minor weaknesses into major ones when they seemingly create two new holes in the lineup to fill another. Bottom line, Sherman wanted this team to be much better defensively. They're actually getting worse in that respect as well as offense and special teams.

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02-05-2013, 02:48 PM
  #516
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I think the problem with Sherman is he gambles too much.

When we traded Liles, it was obvious he thought Barrie/Elliot would step up. We only got a 2nd for him, why not just hold onto him until they actually prove it?

Sign a bunch of depth/project defensemen hoping that some of them will step up their game and prove they can be top 4 defenseman.

Let Winnik go, assuming McClement and RoR would be easy signings. I can't blame him too much for McClement, but he should've talked with him earlier so he could've started the negotiations with RoR earlier.

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02-05-2013, 03:40 PM
  #517
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I think the problem with Sherman is he gambles too much.

When we traded Liles, it was obvious he thought Barrie/Elliot would step up. We only got a 2nd for him, why not just hold onto him until they actually prove it?

Sign a bunch of depth/project defensemen hoping that some of them will step up their game and prove they can be top 4 defenseman.

Let Winnik go, assuming McClement and RoR would be easy signings. I can't blame him too much for McClement, but he should've talked with him earlier so he could've started the negotiations with RoR earlier.
With a limited budget, a GM has no choice but to take gambles. In fact, I think his gambles have mostly all been great moves...unfortunately they weren't good long-term investments, but that's why players like that were available in the first place. In fact, I give him credit for seeking out better long-term solutions when those gambles ultimately didn't work out (Varlamov replacing Anderson, Parenteau being brought in to replace Mueller/Fleischmann).

Zanon and the retention of O'Brien aren't really gambles, and I think that's the problem. Sherman should've sought out a good puckmoving defenseman, even if said defenseman was a liability in his own zone. As it stands, the Avs still suck defensively despite a world class goaltender and slew of defensive defenseman because they can't get it out of the zone effectively nor sustain an attack, so if anything, Sherman got gun shy at the wrong time.

I'm also befuddled as to why he hasn't admitted the Hunwick experiment has largely been a failure and just cut ties with the guy already.

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02-05-2013, 07:36 PM
  #518
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I don't see any justification for the Fire Sherman camp. He's done a very good job. I can't complain about trades or signings, even if I'd prefer to see O'Ry/TJ/Winny on the ice for us. My only issue is probably the huge commitment to the defensive defensemen insistence, so much so that it has made our breakouts ridiculously poor and only two, maybe three, guys can even handle the puck with confidence due to the extra minutes they're playing. Every one of them should be in a spot at least one or two notches down the depth chart.

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IMO Galiardi is just one of those frustrating players that just can't take that next step. This is why people constantly overrate him.
That makes me sad.

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02-05-2013, 07:46 PM
  #519
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I don't see any justification for the Fire Sherman camp. He's done a very good job.
Finishes of 12th, 29th, 20th and a good shot at 20th or worse this year isn't enough?

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02-05-2013, 08:45 PM
  #520
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Finishes of 12th, 29th, 20th and a good shot at 20th or worse this year isn't enough?
Considering he took over a team that finished 28th in the league as well being the fourth oldest team. I'd say so. Especially when you consider the lack of young talent or solid prospects he started with.


Last edited by Avs71: 02-05-2013 at 08:59 PM.
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02-05-2013, 08:55 PM
  #521
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You can't rebuild the offense, the defense, goaltending and depth all at once.

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02-05-2013, 09:19 PM
  #522
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You can't rebuild the offense, the defense, goaltending and depth all at once.
Who said he had to? Those of us complaining about the job he's done are simply pointing out that this team has taken a big step back this year rather than forward. He and the rest of the organization have publicly stated they wanted to ice a team that was harder to play against, and in that respect they failed miserably. They took everything that made them marginally successful and threw it away in pursuit of one goal, and as a result this is a one-dimensional team that isn't succeeding in any respect, not offensively, not defensively, and not on special teams.

Like I've said elsewhere, I'll take the team from a couple seasons ago that scored in bunches and gave up a bunch of goals to the team this year that can't score and still gives up a bunch of goals. At least that other team was fun to watch.

This team is terrible in all respects, and it didn't have to be that way. That's on Sacco, ownership, and yes, Sherman too.

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02-05-2013, 09:57 PM
  #523
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Who said he had to? Those of us complaining about the job he's done are simply pointing out that this team has taken a big step back this year rather than forward. He and the rest of the organization have publicly stated they wanted to ice a team that was harder to play against, and in that respect they failed miserably. They took everything that made them marginally successful and threw it away in pursuit of one goal, and as a result this is a one-dimensional team that isn't succeeding in any respect, not offensively, not defensively, and not on special teams.

Like I've said elsewhere, I'll take the team from a couple seasons ago that scored in bunches and gave up a bunch of goals to the team this year that can't score and still gives up a bunch of goals. At least that other team was fun to watch.

This team is terrible in all respects, and it didn't have to be that way. That's on Sacco, ownership, and yes, Sherman too.
They only thing I didn't like from Sherman is the relatively long contracts he gave to guys like Hunwick, SOB, and Zanon. On the other hand it gives him a chance to get something for them when we trade them even if it is for 5 to 7th round picks. I'm still hoping ROB will turn it around. I'm hoping it is because it is taking him longer than others to shake the lockout rust.

There isn't to many team that could handle losing 4 of their top 9 forwards, and arguably their 2nd best dman and still be able to win regularly. They only way would be to have a great coach (like a Bylsma) but there aren't to many of those available.

I guess i could add one more thing that Sherman did wrong: holding on to long to Sacco but lots of injuries every year seem to give him another life all the time. I can't see them firing him this year either because of the injuries and the short season.

I would love to see where we stand if we would be relatively healthy and RoR was signed. I think our D wouldn't be as exposed as it is right now with guys like RoR, Lando, Downie and Wilson all back. Yes injuries are part of the game but come on this is getting ridiculous. Now EJ.

Sherman is not the problem. Coaching and injuries are. He might have let Liles go too early but that is as much the fault of our development staff thinking our kids would be ready.

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02-05-2013, 09:59 PM
  #524
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Considering he took over a team that finished 28th in the league as well being the fourth oldest team. I'd say so. Especially when you consider the lack of young talent or solid prospects he started with.
So what exactly would he have to do to be a failure in your eyes?

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02-05-2013, 10:26 PM
  #525
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They only thing I didn't like from Sherman is the relatively long contracts he gave to guys like Hunwick, SOB, and Zanon. On the other hand it gives him a chance to get something for them when we trade them even if it is for 5 to 7th round picks. I'm still hoping ROB will turn it around. I'm hoping it is because it is taking him longer than others to shake the lockout rust.

There isn't to many team that could handle losing 4 of their top 9 forwards, and arguably their 2nd best dman and still be able to win regularly. They only way would be to have a great coach (like a Bylsma) but there aren't to many of those available.

I guess i could add one more thing that Sherman did wrong: holding on to long to Sacco but lots of injuries every year seem to give him another life all the time. I can't see them firing him this year either because of the injuries and the short season.

I would love to see where we stand if we would be relatively healthy and RoR was signed. I think our D wouldn't be as exposed as it is right now with guys like RoR, Lando, Downie and Wilson all back. Yes injuries are part of the game but come on this is getting ridiculous. Now EJ.

Sherman is not the problem. Coaching and injuries are. He might have let Liles go too early but that is as much the fault of our development staff thinking our kids would be ready.
Wait, WHAT? You're actually saying that it's the fault of the development staff for supposedly telling Sherman that it was okay to trade Liles because one of our 20-year-old defensive prospects who had yet to play a full season in the AHL would step up to fill the void!? You have got to be kidding me.

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