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Greg Sherman & Co - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM

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Old
02-05-2013, 10:44 PM
  #526
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
Wait, WHAT? You're actually saying that it's the fault of the development staff for supposedly telling Sherman that it was okay to trade Liles because one of our 20-year-old defensive prospects who had yet to play a full season in the AHL would step up to fill the void!? You have got to be kidding me.
I didn't say it was their fault alone but just like a GM relies to a point on their scouting staff to decide if they should trade for a player, a GM will take recommendation from their development staff and coaches to decide if a player is ready to take the spot of a dman they want to trade. Sherman has said before that he makes decision by committee but ultimately he makes the final decision.

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02-05-2013, 10:57 PM
  #527
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I didn't say it was their fault alone but just like a GM relies to a point on their scouting staff to decide if they should trade for a player, a GM will take recommendation from their development staff and coaches to decide if a player is ready to take the spot of a dman they want to trade. Sherman has said before that he makes decision by committee but ultimately he makes the final decision.
By your description then the Avs are running things like the Maple Leafs did under John Ferguson, Jr. That's a scary thought.

Look, if he was the guy who made the final call on that trade (and I'm sure he was) then he gets the blame, no matter who whispered in his ear otherwise. And I'd say if anyone in talent development honestly told Sherman that the loss of an able puckmoving defenseman with six seasons of NHL experience would be immediately offset by one of two defensive prospects fresh out of junior, that staffer shouldn't be employed by an NHL team in any capacity anywhere.

Frankly, I don't buy that premise. Sure, the Avs may have felt confident enough in Barrie/Elliott to let Shattenkirk go, but I can't believe they thought the loss of Liles could be offset with the youth. Frankly I'm at a loss as to explain why these guys thought they could go without Liles and not get a suitable replacement.

Sherman made the call to jettison Liles and replace him with Hejda, who's been an outright disaster thus far. And now we're being told to have faith in a blueline that has to generate offense from a severely overworked EJ and Matt frickin' Hunwick. He plainly botched things and then compounded the problem by adding even more immobile defensemen with no puck skill to the lineup. I don't care if ownership is tying him to a chair and dangling a stack of $100 bills in front of his face, he gets the blame for those mistakes every bit as much as he gets praised for the things he's done right. And right now, his mistakes are overshadowing his successes.

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02-05-2013, 11:12 PM
  #528
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
By your description then the Avs are running things like the Maple Leafs did under John Ferguson, Jr. That's a scary thought.

Look, if he was the guy who made the final call on that trade (and I'm sure he was) then he gets the blame, no matter who whispered in his ear otherwise. And I'd say if anyone in talent development told Sherman that the loss of an able puckmoving defenseman with six seasons of NHL experience would be immediately offset by one of two defensive prospects fresh out of junior, that staffer shouldn't be employed by an NHL team in any capacity anywhere.

Sherman made the call to jettison Liles and replace him with Hejda, who's been an outright disaster thus far. And now we're being told to have faith in a blueline that has to generate offense from a severely overworked EJ and Matt frickin' Hunwick. He plainly botched things and then compounded the problem by adding even more immobile defensemen with no puck skill to the lineup. I don't care if ownership is tying him to a chair and dangling a stack of $100 bills in front of his face, he gets the blame for those mistakes every bit as much as he gets praised for the things he's done right. And right now, his mistakes are overshadowing his successes.
I agree that being the last man to make the call he is ultimately responsible to let go Liles too early. I suspect they were expecting little more offensively from EJ as well as one of the kid making the team. My point was that the blame also goes to the rest of the FO for recommending to him that it was ok to let him go. Just like we are praising the scouting staff for recommending to him a player that we acquired and turned out great (ex. PAP, McGin, Sgarbossa, etc).

I also agree with you that we need a PMD in a bad way but this problem is more obvious due to the fact that we lost 4 of our top 9 forwards. With them in the line up our offense would not be as bad.

Many here say here that our defense is terrible but here is food for thought: we are 11th in GA per game, tied for 17th on PK% and if you take away the two games against the Sharks and Oilers where we gave 7 PPGs, our PK% is about 91% in the other 7 games we played. That doesn't scream terrible to me. The problem is when we make a mistake, it's usually in the back of the net.

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02-05-2013, 11:45 PM
  #529
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Originally Posted by cyberfan View Post
I agree that being the last man to make the call he is ultimately responsible to let go Liles too early. I suspect they were expecting little more offensively from EJ as well as one of the kid making the team. My point was that the blame also goes to the rest of the FO for recommending to him that it was ok to let him go. Just like we are praising the scouting staff for recommending to him a player that we acquired and turned out great (ex. PAP, McGin, Sgarbossa, etc).
True. So you should also take into account that it was Sherman who worked for Giguere when the Avs entered the '08-09 season with no cap room and one of the worst teams in the league. Ultimately, Giguere was the guy making the calls, and he deservedly lost his job, but Sherman deserves a little blame as well since he was the bean counter.

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I also agree with you that we need a PMD in a bad way but this problem is more obvious due to the fact that we lost 4 of our top 9 forwards. With them in the line up our offense would not be as bad.
Sure, the offense would be better arguably, but the team was still getting penned in their own zone because they couldn't move the puck out, even when healthy. Guys like Downie and Landeskog can't make a difference there even if they were healthy. Again, that's on management for failing to address a readily obvious need.

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Many here say here that our defense is terrible but here is food for thought: we are 11th in GA per game, tied for 17th on PK% and if you take away the two games against the Sharks and Oilers where we gave 7 PPGs, our PK% is about 91% in the other 7 games we played. That doesn't scream terrible to me. The problem is when we make a mistake, it's usually in the back of the net.
We're 20th in the league in shots against. Don't kid yourself, a big reason more pucks aren't going in the net is because Varly has been sensational to start the season. He's had to make a TON of acrobatic saves to keep this team from plummeting any further down the standings.

The stats don't tell you that we've also reverted to a passive shot-blocking defense, something the team consciously tried to move away from (and rightly so) in recent years. It runs completely counter to Sacco's desire to be a team that "pressures the puck in all zones" and one of many reasons why even offensively-challenged teams like Dallas are allowed to set up camp and sell tickets in the Avs zone. It's ridiculous how sloppy, slow, and disorganized this team looks, especially in the defensive zone.

And you say we've only given up a ton of power play goals to a couple teams, I'd actually argue the PK has only looked good against teams with lousy power plays. Los Angeles at the time they faced the Avs had the worst PP% in the league, and Dallas wasn't much better. The only time I'd say the Avs PK was reasonably effective was in the 2nd game against the Oilers. Those other times the Avs PK looked really bad was when they were finally tested, a test they easily failed. That's what happens when you start the season without your top two PK forwards and a bad defense.

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02-06-2013, 04:08 PM
  #530
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
True. So you should also take into account that it was Sherman who worked for Giguere when the Avs entered the '08-09 season with no cap room and one of the worst teams in the league. Ultimately, Giguere was the guy making the calls, and he deservedly lost his job, but Sherman deserves a little blame as well since he was the bean counter.



Sure, the offense would be better arguably, but the team was still getting penned in their own zone because they couldn't move the puck out, even when healthy. Guys like Downie and Landeskog can't make a difference there even if they were healthy. Again, that's on management for failing to address a readily obvious need.



We're 20th in the league in shots against. Don't kid yourself, a big reason more pucks aren't going in the net is because Varly has been sensational to start the season. He's had to make a TON of acrobatic saves to keep this team from plummeting any further down the standings.

The stats don't tell you that we've also reverted to a passive shot-blocking defense, something the team consciously tried to move away from (and rightly so) in recent years. It runs completely counter to Sacco's desire to be a team that "pressures the puck in all zones" and one of many reasons why even offensively-challenged teams like Dallas are allowed to set up camp and sell tickets in the Avs zone. It's ridiculous how sloppy, slow, and disorganized this team looks, especially in the defensive zone.

And you say we've only given up a ton of power play goals to a couple teams, I'd actually argue the PK has only looked good against teams with lousy power plays. Los Angeles at the time they faced the Avs had the worst PP% in the league, and Dallas wasn't much better. The only time I'd say the Avs PK was reasonably effective was in the 2nd game against the Oilers. Those other times the Avs PK looked really bad was when they were finally tested, a test they easily failed. That's what happens when you start the season without your top two PK forwards and a bad defense.
Agree with you on a lot of your points however last I checked, shot-blocking was still part of playing defense. I agree that in a perfect world you would prefer that your team had a great defensive system without relying on shot-blocking but defense means to keep the puck out of the net. You do what you have to do to accomplish that including shot-blocking and goaltending.

Speaking of goaltending I disagree that Varly has been sensational. He is tied for 13th for SV% for goalies with 5 or more games played. Sensational for me are guys like Anderson, Luongo, Price. He has been very good but not sensational and this is from a guy that loves Varly and thinks he will get even better.

But you missed my point. I was just trying to show that our D is not "terrible". It IS below average and certainly need improvement if we want to contend but I don't think it is terrible.

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02-06-2013, 04:37 PM
  #531
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But you missed my point. I was just trying to show that our D is not "terrible". It IS below average and certainly need improvement if we want to contend but I don't think it is terrible.
I believe the Avs D is terrible when in possession of the puck anywhere on the ice. This set of defensemen are awful - and I mean simply outright rotten - at both moving the puck out of the defensive zone and passing the puck in the offensive zone.

BTW, the Avs entire D corps together have 0 goals and 7 assists this season, and there are 14 individual NHL defensemen who are ranked ahead of that entire Avs defense corps in scoring.

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02-06-2013, 04:42 PM
  #532
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
I believe the Avs D is terrible when in possession of the puck anywhere on the ice. This set of defensemen are awful - and I mean simply outright rotten - at both moving the puck out of the defensive zone and passing the puck in the offensive zone.

BTW, the Avs entire D corps together have 0 goals and 7 assists this season, and there are 14 individual NHL defensemen who are ranked ahead of that entire Avs defense corps in scoring.
Agree with regards to handling the puck. Never argued they were good at it. I was strickly speaking with regards to defense. I would love to have a d corps that can move the puck better. That would help our offense quite a bit as well.

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02-06-2013, 05:16 PM
  #533
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Agree with regards to handling the puck. Never argued they were good at it. I was strickly speaking with regards to defense. I would love to have a d corps that can move the puck better. That would help our offense quite a bit as well.
We're in agreement there, but I don't think we can ignore that the job of a set of defensemen is both offense and defense. Much like the job of a set of forwards.

IMO, the Avs defense has been pretty bad defensively and offensively both. Varlamov has really saved their bacon any number of times, and the lack of offense is really hurting the team. The Avs are dead last in both PP% and blue line/dman goals so far this season, and I believe point play is the primary culprit.

In short, IMO this is in fact a lousy defense corps.

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02-06-2013, 05:38 PM
  #534
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Agree with you on a lot of your points however last I checked, shot-blocking was still part of playing defense. I agree that in a perfect world you would prefer that your team had a great defensive system without relying on shot-blocking but defense means to keep the puck out of the net. You do what you have to do to accomplish that including shot-blocking and goaltending.

Speaking of goaltending I disagree that Varly has been sensational. He is tied for 13th for SV% for goalies with 5 or more games played. Sensational for me are guys like Anderson, Luongo, Price. He has been very good but not sensational and this is from a guy that loves Varly and thinks he will get even better.

But you missed my point. I was just trying to show that our D is not "terrible". It IS below average and certainly need improvement if we want to contend but I don't think it is terrible.
Shot blocking is fine, but when it defines your defensive strategy, it oftentimes leads to more problems, like getting penned in your own zone and injuries to players blocking those shots. The Avs during that spectacular run where they went from last in the Conference to nearly making the playoffs was largely because Skrastins went down with an injury and the defense, instead of hovering around the net and waiting, were actually charging into the corners and battling for the puck. It's no coincidence that Skrastins was healthy for that crucial final game of the season, the Avs went back into a passive shot blocking scheme, and proceeded to blow a 2-goal lead that cost them the game and the postseason. There are some in hockey circles, including Bob Gainey, who say shot blocking is severely overrated. I'm in that camp.

Varly has in fact been phenomenal. I don't have the numbers in front of me but part of the reason he's not one of the top goalies in the league statistically is because of said lousy PK and lousy defense. Anderson, Luongo, and Price all have far more talented teams in front of them, or at least in Anderson's case, has a phenomenal coach who has everyone playing well in front of him. The fact we're not sitting dead last alongside Calgary is due, in very large part, to him.

And like ABasin said, our D is not simply "below average." Anaheim's D-corps is below average. Winnipeg's D-corps is below average. This is a terrible, terrible defense, no matter how you cut it. It's terrible because it's one-dimensional, slow, and completely and utterly unable to handle the puck. That's not just integral to offense, it's integral to defense, because of you can't handle the puck, you can't get it out of the zone. I'd argue it's one of the worst defenses in the league. Honestly, I can't really think of a defensive corps that's worse. Not Columbus, not Philadelphia, not even Carolina.

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02-06-2013, 06:13 PM
  #535
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
Shot blocking is fine, but when it defines your defensive strategy, it oftentimes leads to more problems, like getting penned in your own zone and injuries to players blocking those shots. The Avs during that spectacular run where they went from last in the Conference to nearly making the playoffs was largely because Skrastins went down with an injury and the defense, instead of hovering around the net and waiting, were actually charging into the corners and battling for the puck. It's no coincidence that Skrastins was healthy for that crucial final game of the season, the Avs went back into a passive shot blocking scheme, and proceeded to blow a 2-goal lead that cost them the game and the postseason. There are some in hockey circles, including Bob Gainey, who say shot blocking is severely overrated. I'm in that camp.

Varly has in fact been phenomenal. I don't have the numbers in front of me but part of the reason he's not one of the top goalies in the league statistically is because of said lousy PK and lousy defense. Anderson, Luongo, and Price all have far more talented teams in front of them, or at least in Anderson's case, has a phenomenal coach who has everyone playing well in front of him. The fact we're not sitting dead last alongside Calgary is due, in very large part, to him.

And like ABasin said, our D is not simply "below average." Anaheim's D-corps is below average. Winnipeg's D-corps is below average. This is a terrible, terrible defense, no matter how you cut it. It's terrible because it's one-dimensional, slow, and completely and utterly unable to handle the puck. That's not just integral to offense, it's integral to defense, because of you can't handle the puck, you can't get it out of the zone. I'd argue it's one of the worst defenses in the league. Honestly, I can't really think of a defensive corps that's worse. Not Columbus, not Philadelphia, not even Carolina.
I really don't disagree with both of you when it comes to the d corps being the root of most of our problems. I just don't think it is as terrible as you guys make it out to be. We are certainly in the bottom third. I know we can't just look at stats and 9 games is a small sample but I believe that a lot of our problems is due to Hejda and ROB taking too long to shake the lockout rust. Long time without playing affects players differently. You have to admit there is a huge difference between ROB this year and ROB last year. Hejda had a bad start as well. McGinn has had problems scoring hitting tons of iron. Was it due to rust or just bad luck? I would say a bit of both. I know I am now talking about offense but he scores a few of those posts and we might not be here talking about how bad this team is.

Last year we finished 11th for SA/G, 12th on PK% and 15th for GA/G for a full 82 game season. It's basically the same d corps. What has changed? Well I would say the lockout and the injuries/holdout from our forwards.

In the end I think we all agree that we need better PMDs and we need a new system from the coaches.

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02-06-2013, 07:29 PM
  #536
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I really don't disagree with both of you when it comes to the d corps being the root of most of our problems. I just don't think it is as terrible as you guys make it out to be. We are certainly in the bottom third. I know we can't just look at stats and 9 games is a small sample but I believe that a lot of our problems is due to Hejda and ROB taking too long to shake the lockout rust. Long time without playing affects players differently. You have to admit there is a huge difference between ROB this year and ROB last year. Hejda had a bad start as well. McGinn has had problems scoring hitting tons of iron. Was it due to rust or just bad luck? I would say a bit of both. I know I am now talking about offense but he scores a few of those posts and we might not be here talking about how bad this team is.

Last year we finished 11th for SA/G, 12th on PK% and 15th for GA/G for a full 82 game season. It's basically the same d corps. What has changed? Well I would say the lockout and the injuries/holdout from our forwards.

In the end I think we all agree that we need better PMDs and we need a new system from the coaches.
I'd argue a bit part of that was the fact that yes, the D was playing a bit better but also because O'Reilly was there almost acting like a third defenseman out there. Leading the league in takeaways and winning key defensive zone draws makes a things a ton easier for your defense. Also the fact that new additions brought a shooting % that was completely unsustainable made things even easier on the D since they didn't have to actually generate any offense. The dump-and-chase angle was actually working at that time because the puck was going in the net every time McGinn and Downie shot the puck.

Yet Sherman didn't realize that guys like McGinn and Downie simply weren't going to score at will like that forever, and that O'Reilly wasn't/shouldn't have to cover for the d-men so much, so instead of addressing a need for a puckmover on the blueline (something Lacroix felt was so vital for team success he traded one of his top forwards for Derek Morris), he just added yet another glorified pylon.

That's one of my problems with Sherman. When Sacco has a win, doesn't matter if the team played like crap, he doesn't do a thing to the lineup. Same thing with Sherman. He's unwilling or unable to actually analyze what's making his team successful at the time and address weaknesses that might be covered up at the time. Instead he just waits until it falls apart or is exposed and reacts...and in the case of this defense, he overreacts.

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02-06-2013, 07:56 PM
  #537
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I'd argue a bit part of that was the fact that yes, the D was playing a bit better but also because O'Reilly was there almost acting like a third defenseman out there. Leading the league in takeaways and winning key defensive zone draws makes a things a ton easier for your defense. Also the fact that new additions brought a shooting % that was completely unsustainable made things even easier on the D since they didn't have to actually generate any offense. The dump-and-chase angle was actually working at that time because the puck was going in the net every time McGinn and Downie shot the puck.

Yet Sherman didn't realize that guys like McGinn and Downie simply weren't going to score at will like that forever, and that O'Reilly wasn't/shouldn't have to cover for the d-men so much, so instead of addressing a need for a puckmover on the blueline (something Lacroix felt was so vital for team success he traded one of his top forwards for Derek Morris), he just added yet another glorified pylon.

That's one of my problems with Sherman. When Sacco has a win, doesn't matter if the team played like crap, he doesn't do a thing to the lineup. Same thing with Sherman. He's unwilling or unable to actually analyze what's making his team successful at the time and address weaknesses that might be covered up at the time. Instead he just waits until it falls apart or is exposed and reacts...and in the case of this defense, he overreacts.
So you do agree with me after all that our forward situation has a lot to do with our defense problem?

With regard to Sherman, nobody knows if he is or isn't trying to solve our defensive problem. They are very secretive and don't forget it takes two GMs to make a trade. You just don't go to the corner store and order better dmen. Wouldn't it be nice.

AS for the dump and chase, I've been saying a few times in the past years that there is nothing wrong with that strategy. However, to succeed, three things need to happen. First when you dump in, the puck carrier or one of his linemates need to be at full strides...not slowing down or almost stopped at the blue line waiting for the puck to be dumped. To often than not, that's what happen to us.

Second it must be done when the dmen are standing you up at the blue line AND not already cheating for the dump in. This way you'll have the necessary speed to go around them and beat them to the puck.

And last and MOST important, it MUST be alternated with a puck possession into the zone strategy. When I say alternated I don't mean once you dump in and then the next time you carry the puck in. I mean that the forwards must recognize when it is time to dump in and when they should carry the puck. I would argue that a good ratio would be 60-65% dump in and 35-40% carry. Some nights it might be the opposite depending on how the dmen play. You want to make the dmen cheat for the dump in by moving back so you have room to enter the zone.

The problem with this team is either Sacco tells them to always dump in, he is not teaching them how to recognize when to do it, or the players just don't get it. It might be a little of all three.

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02-06-2013, 09:13 PM
  #538
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So you do agree with me after all that our forward situation has a lot to do with our defense problem?

With regard to Sherman, nobody knows if he is or isn't trying to solve our defensive problem. They are very secretive and don't forget it takes two GMs to make a trade. You just don't go to the corner store and order better dmen. Wouldn't it be nice.
Not asking for Sherman to go and get Erik Karlsson. But going to get Greg friggin' Zanon when he could have (and STILL could) gotten Chris Campoli defies all logic in my eyes. Campoli's by no means great, but he has better puckmoving ability than the redwoods currently on the depth chart below EJ.

And yes, I agree the lack of forwards is hurting overall team defense, but my point is that O'Reilly was actually helping to mask the fact that last year's defense sucked too. You were using stats to say last year's D, at least statistically, wasn't too bad, and I'm saying stats only tell part of the story. It's Sherman's job to look past the stats and realize what this team's apparent weaknesses are, even when they're playing well. You say we don't know if Sherman isn't up to something, I say he's already dug himself a very sizeable hole. I can't judge Sherman on what he hasn't done, only by what he's already failed to do.

And as far as systems go, I don't know if Sacco can honestly implement anything other than a one-dimensional vanilla offense. He simply doesn't have the personnel to do much else. Mind you, I'm off the Sacco bandwagon as well, but management and ownership have the lion's share of the blame.

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02-06-2013, 09:18 PM
  #539
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Agreed, Sacco is a horrible coach but Scotty Bowman couldn't win with this roster.

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02-06-2013, 10:15 PM
  #540
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Honestly, I can't really think of a defensive corps that's worse. Not Columbus, not Philadelphia, not even Carolina.
I was hoping to find one that was without a doubt worse. Perhaps the group Dallas is using.

It just doesn't get much worse than Colorado's defense. Hunwick, O'Byrne, O'Brien, Hejda, and Zanon all on the ice tonight.

That's on the GM. I thought they could get a little more milage out of some of these guys, but I guess not.

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02-06-2013, 10:22 PM
  #541
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I was hoping to find one that was without a doubt worse. Perhaps the group Dallas is using.

It just doesn't get much worse than Colorado's defense. Hunwick, O'Byrne, O'Brien, Hejda, and Zanon all on the ice tonight.

That's on the GM. I thought they could get a little more milage out of some of these guys, but I guess not.
No, I'd say Dallas's D is at least more versatile. Their problem is the same as the Avs had in the days of Liles/Cumiskey. Too small and soft, that's why they had to force Oleksiak into the lineup recently. But they at least have good puckmoving talent (though I understand Goligoski is struggling right now), and Robidas is a good all-around guy. His problem is that he's not a #1 defenseman.

Colorado's D is one-dimensional and even that one dimension isn't that good.

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02-06-2013, 10:32 PM
  #542
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Before the season I said Sherman has done a great job and his only real mistake has been the inability to fix the defense. Well the defense is even worse than I imagined and right now the entire team is terrible.

Sherman is getting fired at the end of the season if this continues.

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02-06-2013, 10:34 PM
  #543
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Originally Posted by Avs_19 View Post
Before the season I said Sherman has done a great job and his only real mistake has been the inability to fix the defense. Well the defense is even worse than I imagined and right now the entire team is terrible.

Sherman is getting fired at the end of the season if this continues.
I was a staunch defender of Sherman as well...but not anymore. This defensive corps is inexcusable.

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02-06-2013, 10:41 PM
  #544
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When Jan Hejda is a key defensive cog, you are in trouble.

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02-06-2013, 10:43 PM
  #545
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When Jan Hejda is a key defensive cog, you are in trouble.
Hejda is actually one of our better defensemen.

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02-06-2013, 10:59 PM
  #546
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Hejda is actually one of our better defensemen.
Precisely his point.

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02-06-2013, 11:09 PM
  #547
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Sherman has got his work cut out for him big time right now. He's screwing the pooch with O'Reilly, and his team is sucking. This take it or leave it stance is gonna make them look real stupid if they keep losing and playing the way they are. Injuries are not an excuse IMO. They still have plenty of players that are underperforming every night.


Last edited by Foppa2118: 02-06-2013 at 11:14 PM.
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02-06-2013, 11:11 PM
  #548
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Only with Sacco will you ever see a dman being consistently either a healthy scratch or playing 21/22 minutes on the top-pair. No in-between.

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02-06-2013, 11:53 PM
  #549
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I can't understand how you can have the worst group of defensemen in the NHL when it comes to offense last season, decide to bring everyone back (for multiple years. ugh) and add someone like Greg Zanon. It's like this organization doesn't believe in defenders having a role in creating offense.

I've been a fan of Sherman and his moves, but this bag of **** lands at the door of the GM. I don't care if they make decisions as a group or not, if you can't see how this group of defenders weren't good enough last year and try to, at a minimum, make their sucking balanced by bringing in a **** offensive defenseman, then you really shouldn't be a GM.

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02-07-2013, 10:35 AM
  #550
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What could've Sherman actually done with the defenseman the last two years?

Yes we can trade one of your three centres at any point of time, but why trade one of them when the other two haven't proven that they can handle the load?

And in the free agency market, Sherman told us that he did send offers to Suter and Parise, but they didn't decide to come here. We all wanted Carle, but realistically speaking how much could he have helped our team? Another player we wanted was Garrison, who probably would've helped our team the most besides Suter, but the feeling I have is he didn't even want to come here at here and wanted to go to a cup contender. Also add in that the defensive depth of the past free agency markets have been dreadful.

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